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Share your favorite training tips, ideas and methods with other Positively members!
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:31 pm
But I also know dogs where just one or two sprays have stopped unwanted barking without producing a neurotic wreck of a dog. How do I argue with that? It worked for those owners. It didn't harm their dogs physically or mentally.
how do you "argue" with that? very easy. they got lucky, and the knowledge that it did "no harm" is 20/20 hind sight. There was NO possible way to know this going into it. also, is it really possible not being the owner and living with the dogs to KNOW there was no damage.
Yes, they may have "got lucky" but it is rather arrogant to assume that someone may not know their dog well enough to predict its reaction. Most people don't, but some do. It is possible, you know.
I know these people and their dogs very well. And I do actually talk to them.
And for the sake of form I will reiterate, I would never recommend anyone to use a water spray.
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
I don't understand how we are arguing over this. The sad fact is not many owners do know their dogs..so why even recommend any aversive when it could then be put into the wrong hands. It's just not worth the risk. Much better to educate to use other methods - which are safer and more forgiving if mistakes are made.
Last edited by Whitefang on Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Posts: 8894
- Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
- Location: West Midlands
I think the point is, which I did try to make early on - we have to recognise that in some circumstances, and for soem reasons, sometiems the right reasons and sometimes the WRONG reasons, aversives like spray bottles can work, or appear to work.
If we go around saying 'no it never ever works' then firstly we are not tellign the truth and secondly people who have seen it work (whether it actually worked for real, or caused a dog to shut down out of fear! they may well not know the difference) will then be turned OFF positive training because they think we havent told the truth.
There is a reason that punishment based training has persisted for so very long and that reason is that in some circumstances, and for what I would personally consider to be the wrong reasons, it does work, as in the dog does eventually stop doing 'whatever'.
For ME the fact that the dog stops doing whatever out of fear, out of a desire to avoid punishment means I do not consider it to have 'worked' because MY goal is a happy, relaxed, friendly relationship with my dogs.
Many people seek a subserviant relationship where their dogs do as they are told and if not told, do nothing, fear them above and beyond anything else and never question what their person says.
This is not at ALL the relationship we want with our dogs, but it is what some people want and for those people they will find to a certain degree, punishment./aversives work - to deny what is in some ways a truth would be very very silly of us so I like to explain WHY something may work, or appear to work, and also explain at what 'cost' that may come, ie at the expensive of the animals happiness, at the expense of a relaxed and friendly relationship with that animal etc etc.