First post, some advice needed please

[rubble2]

Hi,

First post here so apologies for it being a long one

We have a two year old (castrated male) springer spaniel/retreiver mix called Scout. We got him as a puppy and he has always been quite a highly strung dog.

We took him to puppy classes when we first got him and he did ok, no problems with mixing with other dogs or people. I work from home so he is never left on his own for more than a few hours at a time and he is generally well behaved when left.

But (there had to be one) here are the problems :-

When anyone visits the house he goes balistic, he jumps up at them, barks and generally won't leave them alone, we had a number of sessions with a trainer who suggested having a lead attached to the stair banister next to the front door so that he could be clipped to it when visitors arrive and only let off when he has calmed down. We have been doing this for the past few months but to be honest he never really does calm down.
We have resorted to clipping him to the lead as the visitors arrive, getting the visitors into the living room and only then letting him off and keeping him in the hall and kitchen for the duration of the visit. This works to some extent but all the time they are in the house he sits outside the closed door whining and groaning, I know he only wants to get in and see the visitors but he is so full on that we feel it is unfair to subject people to a dog jumping all over them.

This leads on to the second problem, when he gets himself wound up like this, he can start to get aggressive if we try to control him (put him on the lead to get him out of the room for example) so it is escalating into a real problem.

Last evening he bit my wife quite badly ( needed tetanus jab and antibiotics) Ok the lead up was this :- my wife was sitting on the sofa watching TV, Scout was messing around jumping on her feet and she pushed him away with her foot, he yelped so she must have accidendtally hurt him, but he moved away and then came back to her wagging his tail so she went to stroke him and he turned on her biting her arm.

The only other time he is anything like this aggressive is when he goes to the vet, he turns into a completely different dog and snarls and tries to bite the vet or the nurse or me if anyone tries to examine him. We have resorted to giving him sedatives prescribed by the vet prior to the visit but it is such a traumatic experience that we dread him going for his annual check up.

Just a bit of background to this, when we first got him he was ok going to the vet (he had his first innoculations without any trouble), when he was a few months old he ate a tea light (candle) we took him to the vet to make sure that he was ok. They said that because of the metal base of the tea light they would need to Xray him to see where the item was stuck and decide from that what to do. He went of quite happily with the vet for his xray and was fine when we picked him up (no sign of the tea light on the xray??). The problem began the next time he wnt to the vet for his jabs and has continued every visit since.

We have changed vets to avoid negative associations but the problems have continued with the new vet.

The incident yesterday has scared us, we have a4 month old grandaughter who visits a couple of times a week, we never let Scouit into the room when she is there but nevertheless it is at the back of our minds that he may be a bit unstable and a potential danger to the family.

Sorry to have gone on so long but would appreciate any feedback/suggestions that may help modify or control his behaviour or should we play safe and look at rehoming?

Thanks

[Maz]

I'm a complete novice at this (though having to research and learn all the time) so cannot offer advice but I think those that will be able to help will need info like how much exercise per day and diet (our own dog has problems which may be related to diet - he finds it difficult to relax and can be aggressive). Re going to the vet - again our own dog was fine for first few visits but after spending a day there when being castrated things got a bit different ... compounded by when he later had to go due to a pulled muscle and in pain the muzzle wasn't on tight enough, he got it partly off and it got stuck round his head which terrified him - since then we've worked very hard on desensitizing him by lots of visits to sit in the waiting room, touching muzzle, progressing to nose in muzzle, then wearing for a few seconds etc until a month later when he needed his injection booster he managed to wear the muzzle and have the injection ... but we know there's ALOT more work needed. I hope someone can help you as I know I couldn't bare to let our little dog go even though he's not easy to deal with ... we are determined to help him and have a VS Positively Trainer to help us. PLEASE don't give up on him - I'm sure you'll get good advice and at least understand and be able to manage the situation. Good luck!

[rubble2]

Thanks for the reply,

It is easy to convince yourself that yours is the only dog to exhibit problems which is why these forums are so useful.

Scout has two walks a day - an hour in the morning off lead and a shorter 20 minute walk on lead at night. Not sure if this is enough, so any feedback would be welcome. He is fed a complete dry food (Command performance CP21) which he seems to enjoy along with chicken ham or cheese treats.

I am planning to call in a the vets this afternoon (without Scout) to have a talk with them and see what advice they can offer.

I kind of feel that his behaviour can be improved with proper training and management but really need some solid advice as to where to go from here.

[ladybug1802]

Hi and welcome! I am sure others will come on soon with more in depth advice, but I have a dog who, if left loose when someone comes to the door and comes in, is likely to lunge and snap at them, as he seems to find it very stressful. I tried fopr ages to get him to sit at the far enod of the hall while I opened door and visitors came in, but it didnt help, and made him more stressed. What I find works with him is I have now got a large crate with a duvet in and some of his toys, where he chooses to go to sleep on occasions too as he now sees it as a 'good and safe place'.....I have got him to associate the doorbell sound (which is wireless and not yet connected to outside) with him going to his crate. He barks of course, but he then stays in his crate while the visitor comes in and sits down....and he is allowed out once he has stopped barking and is calmly sitting...which doesnt take too long. Then when I let him out the visitors MUST ignore him.....I think this would work with your dog too. I mean I ask my visitors to ignore Dylan because he needs a bit of time to make sure these people are OK....he needs to sniff them and be around them before they can stroke him and if they try too soon he will growl and/or snap.

with regards to Scout biting your wife.......mmmm...where did she go to stroke him? As in did she put her hand down directly on his head? Maybe if she had inadvertently kicked him just prior to that, the action of her hand coming down on his head (which is an action a lot of dogs dont like) might have freaked him out? My dog is fine with me and peop-le he knows and trusts doing this, but if a stranger makes eye contact and tries to pat him on the head he would growl and snap at them.....so I have learnt this and make sure nobody does. I dont know if this is why he did it as I imagine he trusts you and your wife. Or maybe she touched him somewhere that hurt? Although like me, you have the problem of not easily being able to take your dog to the vet for a check up! I know I certainly cant....which leads me on to....

The fact i totally sympathise with the vet thing.....Dylan is awful at the vets and it is all down to fear. He will not let a vet or vet nurse or anyone near him so cannot be examined. I took him in last week because he needed a retained baby tooth and a wobbly adult tooth removing (which were diagnosed initially via photos by email!).....and I held him close to me initially, but he totally freaked out - screaming, wriggling...it was so sad to see. And I have been taking him in vry regularly and sitting in the waiting room, going in the consulting room etc, and he is absolutely fine in there and even pulls to get in the door...but when a vet or someone comes to get nearer him he freaks....so I am going to be giving him his annual jabs from now on, and the only thing that worked last week was, like you said, giving him some oral sedative and then I sat with him in the car for 45 mins or so for it to take effect, then I was able to hold him while the vet injected the main sedative and altho he wriggled a bit, he stopped after a few seconds. So this is the way we will need to go.

Have a look at my thread under 'General Chat' about my vet visit and at some of the really good avice given....I am going to chat to my vet to see if they will be happy to work with me more closely.

[ckranz]

First I would get a complete vet workup including checking the thyroid and for any more evidence of the tea light. We want to make certain that there is nothing medical which might be influencing his behavior.

Greetings Behaviors. Having you dog on leash is an excellent start, but you actively have to work on the behavior your want. Think about how you want your dog to greet guests. Also be observant as to when he notices your guests have arrived...is i when they are in the drive, walking up, or when they knock or ring the bell. How is he meeting people when you are out on walks?

When guests come over how about they knock and then move to the driveway or sidewalk. You bring out Scout on lead and meet the people outside. (while outside your guests are giving scout lots of treats for 4 on the floor. After a few minute you all enter the house together. Note this would be a temporary solution as you have regular schedule guests to work on door greetings.

This is where you need to define exactly what you want your dog to do.....sit and wait on a pillow, down and lay on a pillow etc. As Scout for what you want. reward when he complies and move closer to the door. Keep rewarding him for holding position. Rewards stop when he breaks position. Start over. This may mean shutting the door on your guest (so prepare your guest ahead of time). This may take several practice visits.

[rubble2]

Ok, first thing -thanks for all the replies.

I just had a talk with the vets, explained what happened etc.

The response I got was that what he did was unacceptable and that if he has bitten one of the family once then there is every chance he may do it again (I quess I knew that).

They said that we either learn to live with the possibillity that he may bite again and try to prevent any circumstances arising when this may happen, they also said that rehoming wasn't really an option because of the aggressive behaviour he has shown and that the only other option is euthanasia.

Really do not know what to do for the best, I will talk it over with the family tonight and make a decision as to how to proceed.

Thanks again for all your input

[ladybug1802]

Oh my lord...have to say I think that that is an appalling response from the vet"!! Aggression can occur for so many different reasons, and I have no doubt that if Dylan had ended up with another owner than me, who didnt spend as muich time working out why he behaved the way he did and willing to work with it and take advice from forums like this, he would have been put down a while ago. I have had him just over a year and he has improved so much...simply by understand WHY he got aggressive and fearful and not putting him in that position, thereby letting his stress levels go down. Not saying that is exactly the same as your dog, but my point is that I am so upset that your vet has said, from one phone call regarding one incident at home, that the possibility of euthanasia should be considered.

PLEASE dont even think about this......there are reasons for your dogs behavious, and from what you have said it sounds like the other night was the first time, othert than the vets, he has behaved this way? My dog is appalling at the vets....even with the muzzle on he growls at tries to snap if they come near....but they would NEVER ever suggest putting him down....the behaviour os clearly down to fear. And with your dog it sounds like he is fearful because hge went there once and had a lot of pain and things going on, so he now associates visits to the vet with that. Seriousl;y, please have a look at my thread on my vet visist as I have got some great advice from other forum members and have emailed my vets this afternoon to check they are happy for me to bring him in more often and go in this direction.

Please dont let what the vet said get you down and please dont even consider euthanasia.

[ladybug1802]

In fact just had a reply from my vet....she said she is more than happy for me to keep bringing Dylan in and they wil do what they can to help. She said she isnt sure how much it will actually help but she is more than happy to give it a go and see what happens.

I really thnk with a dog like yours and mine, it is very important to have a vet on side willing to work with you. I know my vet is pleased to see that I am doing all I can to help him, and thereby possibly make their work easier.....shame that your vet seems to not be of the same mindset.

Keep going though.....you will honestly get some great help here that really really works!

[rubble2]

Thanks Ladybug,

Just to add a little extra detail, I actually called in at the vets practice and spoke to the senior nurse not the vet. Perhaps the way I have written the information I got has not given a fair representation of how the conversation went.

She said that there is every possibility that Scout may bite again if the circumstances reoccur ,she said that now we know that certain scenarios can result in him biting we need to avoid if possible, the situations where he reacts so aggressively. I then mentioned about rehoming but she said that it would not be possible due to his aggression and that if we felt we couldn't cope with or work around his behavioural problems then euthanasia would be the only other option.

She also said that if my wife now feels afraid of Scout in case he bites her again then that might make matters worse as he will sense that she is wary of him (don't know if that is proven fact or just myth - I have certainly heard it said before).

I will certainly look at the other posts you referred me to, but I need the rest of the family to agree on whatever course of action we decide on, I would like to think that we can improve Scouts behaviour and would be willing to try anything but I could never forgive myself if he did cause serious injury to a family member.

[ladybug1802]

Ah OK I see...thanks for the clarification! Yes you are right....dogs do very much pick up on fear/nervousness from people, and then they can react accordingly. My dog, being a bit fearful and reactive would possibly snap if someone was nervous around him.

Yes I agree you definitely have to have the whole family on the same page with regards to how you are going to behave and trainm the dog......good luck with your family chat tonight!

[Maz]

Scout is only young and surely with training he can be saved. Whereabouts in the country are you? Maybe somebody on this forum can suggest a good +R trainer.

[3 dog mom]

i am a novice as well and with my new understanding of a dog's body language, i think i have saved myself from a bite or two!

i would highly recommend researching books and dvds on this topic. turid rugaas calming signals is a great place to start.
one of my favorite books, Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic
Dogs by Brenda Aloff. the photographs and descriptions of what the dogs are saying with their bodies and faces truly help to us to understand them better.

did the dog growl before biting your wife? that is the most obvious of signals - and a good reason to never "shush" a growling dog.....how else can he say, "i don't like this...stop or i am going to nip/snap/bite you". a head turn, a tongue flick, a yawn are all examples of subtle messages that when not recognized by humans, can escalate to the growl.

hope this helps!

[ckranz]

First I would get a complete vet workup including checking the thyroid and for any more evidence of the tea light. We want to make certain that there is nothing medical which might be influencing his behavior.

Greetings Behaviors. Having you dog on leash is an excellent start, but you actively have to work on the behavior your want. Think about how you want your dog to greet guests. Also be observant as to when he notices your guests have arrived...is i when they are in the drive, walking up, or when they knock or ring the bell. How is he meeting people when you are out on walks?

When guests come over how about they knock and then move to the driveway or sidewalk. You bring out Scout on lead and meet the people outside. (while outside your guests are giving scout lots of treats for 4 on the floor. After a few minute you all enter the house together. Note this would be a temporary solution as you have regular schedule guests to work on door greetings.

This is where you need to define exactly what you want your dog to do.....sit and wait on a pillow, down and lay on a pillow etc. As Scout for what you want. reward when he complies and move closer to the door. Keep rewarding him for holding position. Rewards stop when he breaks position. Start over. This may mean shutting the door on your guest (so prepare your guest ahead of time). This may take several practice visits.

[emmabeth]

The first thing I would do is take him off the CSJ, it is in my opinion a very very cheap food with a very high grain content - this is not good, and this can (as well as e numbers, flavourings, additives etc) can really contribute to a lot of problems in some dogs including hyperactive loopy sorts of behaviour.

Secondly, management - what you seem to ahve been doing up to now is attempting ot manage it, but not all that well, in the hope he will suddenly guess at how you would like him to behave. Thats just not goin to happen!

So - decide what you would like him to do, and think about this in a positive way, rather than a negative way, by which I mean you want to think 'I would like Scout to sit quietly in the hallway on a lead whilst I open the door to vistors. I would like him to greet them calmly with all four paws on the floor.'
then
At the moment i think you are heavily focussingon 'I do not want Scout to jump up and bark and leap all over my guests'. It might seem like these are the same thing but they are not!

So firs tyou teach Scout what he does, where he does it and when. Start with 'what', 'sitting for all greetings' so have him sit all over the place, for his lead going on, at kerbs, before you open the door to go out for a walk, before you open the door to come back in from a walk, before he gets a biscuit or his dinner.

When he reliably sits whether you are standing up, sitting down, inside or outside, in any room - now you focus on sitting in the hallway as the door is being opened. If he gets up, push the door shut. Ask him to sit again, and repeat the process.

Then add in the doorbell or someone knocking but start out with that being a family member rather than a real live guest. This way you wont rush to the door, you can take all the time you need. If he is SUPER reactive to the doorbell, disconnect yours, and get another witha slightly different sound (remote battery one), and before you connect that up, teach him that the sound of the doorbell = sit for a reward (simply by ringing it and asking for a sit and rewarding, over and over, in short sessions until that sound means 'sit').

When hes cool with sitting calmly for fake guests coming in, the next stage is real ones but pick these carefully - ONLY work wtih people who are willing and able to follow your instructions to the letter. The LAST thing you want is someone who is going to ignore you when you ask them to step back out of the door and close it because SCouts broken hisi sit, or insisting on petting him as he leaps at them when you ask them to turn around and ignore him.

For now, try to limit the guests you have over. The ones you DO have over, have them ring before they come round so you can open the door for them without them knocking - this stops him practicing the 'someones at the door lets go nuts' behaviour and you do need him to stop being rewarded in any way for it (so the simplest thing is to sotp it happening.)

Put him in another room with something interesting to do, make sure he has had a decent walk before hand so he is tired and not hyper, and from there you can either bring him out once the guest is in and seated, if they are willing to help, or leave him in the other room until they are gone.

Ifthey ARE wiling to help, you need Scout on a lead and a pot of treats and a decent chewy treat or a filled Kong - instruct the guest to ignore the dog. There IS no dog. No eye contact, no speaking to him, certainly no attempting to touch him, and the guest must not get up from his chair without telling you first so you can take Scout out of the room.

Done like THIS there is no risk scout is going to bite anyone else - then you can sit down with scout on the lead, and keep him distracted and rewarded for sitting by you with treats and the chewy treat or Kong toy. Once he has finished his treat or Kong and been calm for five or ten minutes, you can take him away and put him in another room for a while, so you do not risk overfacing him or someone forgetting the rules and making a mistake.

Set yourselves up for success! Make sure hes exercised enough both physically and mentally ~(clicker training, puzzle solving toys, food from kongs, games such as tracking and finding toys on walks and around the house and garden), make sure his food isnt sending him loopy, try a grain free food - there is Taste of the Wild, Acana, Orijen off the top of my head - they are all A LOT more expensive than CSJ, but you get what you pay for, and you will feed a fair amount less of a quality food like one of the above than you will of a lower quality feed, so it doesnt work out nearly as expensive as it may look from the pack price. (btw zooplus have 10% off on either acana or taste of the wild at the moment, i forget which though!)

[Maz]

What a fabulous reply! I've been doing alot of reading re food and behaviour (and I teach young children and I know how food/drink can make their behaviour change) to help our dog ... Oscar has been recommended and it's coming today ...