I want to nip this in the bud!

[jemima]

Hi
I'm new on here and I have 2 gorgeous 5 month old english pointer sibling pups Toby and Jemima( please don't shout at me!) My husband and I live on a farm on the yorkshire moors we have 4 acres, we work from home so have plenty of time for them. Everything has been going very well, however as you can imagine very hard work!!! we split them during the day 1 will be with me in the house and 1 will be with my husband in the office and then we swap them over, the rest of the time they are running and playing outside.and at night they are together in the dining room which is fully puppy proofed! We have been taking them to puppy training ( together and seperately) but unfortunately it seems very old school and I don't like the methods, it is reward based but i don't like the fat that he forced Toby to the floor when he wouldn't lie down, Toby ended up growling and so we have stopped going. They have had plenty of socialisation lots of pub walks out and about ( we have had more pub lunches in the last 3 months than in the whole year) which we continue to do, there recall is fantastic and everything is going very well but we do have a problem with Jemima.
Both are allowed to cuddle up to us at night on the sofa whilst we watch TV. Bed time means going outside to the loo and then to their beds for the night. Toby is an angel and gets off the sofa ( very slowly!!) and out to the loo and bed when he is told however Jemima refuses to get off the sofa!!! If we go to give her a nudge she growls, now i know this is a warning and i can't reprimand her for this, but i also know she is not in pain she is just too comfortable to move...i am the same if someone tries to get me up when i am asleep!!! she is not very food focussed we have tried cheese/ham etc and it doesn't appeal to her as much as sleeping!!! so it is not working so we end up putting the lead on and ignoring her grumbles and then taking her off. I am worried that this will escalate into something else? does anyone have any ideas. she knows the off command and will get off the sofa throughout the day when asked it is just at bed time, I have read about changing the routine so maybe i should try that?
She is quite sensitive to strangers as well and snapped at our neighbour the other day, completely understandably as she had a bucket collar on her head having just been spayed and he went to stroke her head ( before we could stop him she snapped) obviously he was intruding her space!!! but there was no growl before hand I am worried that us ignoring her when she growls when getting off the sofa has made her think that a warning growl doesn't work!

does anyone have any ideas?

Having these 2 really has shown me how different 2 dogs really can be they both have had the same training, same socialisation, same everything,. Toby adores all people and is warey of dogs whilst Jemima adores other dogs and is warey of strangers!

Thanks for listening I just want to nip this in the bud and do whats best for her

some pcis for you

[jemima]

[Mattie]

Hi
I'm new on here and I have 2 gorgeous 5 month old english pointer sibling pups Toby and Jemima( please don't shout at me!) My husband and I live on a farm on the yorkshire moors we have 4 acres, we work from home so have plenty of time for them. Everything has been going very well, however as you can imagine very hard work!!! we split them during the day 1 will be with me in the house and 1 will be with my husband in the office and then we swap them over, the rest of the time they are running and playing outside.and at night they are together in the dining room which is fully puppy proofed! We have been taking them to puppy training ( together and seperately) but unfortunately it seems very old school and I don't like the methods, it is reward based but i don't like the fat that he forced Toby to the floor when he wouldn't lie down, Toby ended up growling and so we have stopped going.

Well done for stop going, I am fostering a lovely little boy who has been handled the same way, his owners gave him up because they were so frightened of him and his previous foster mother did the same. Like Toby he was pinned down until he submitted. I have had Bertie with me for 5 weeks now and had no sign of this biting, he has developed into a very loving boy and his obedience has improved tremendously thanks to positive methods. We were given brains to use, unfortunately far too many prefer to use brawn, more fun to use our brains.

They have had plenty of socialisation lots of pub walks out and about ( we have had more pub lunches in the

last 3 months than in the whole year) which we continue to do, there recall is fantastic and everything is going very well but we do have a problem with Jemima.
Both are allowed to cuddle up to us at night on the sofa whilst we watch TV. Bed time means going outside to the loo and then to their beds for the night. Toby is an angel and gets off the sofa ( very slowly!!) and out to the loo and bed when he is told however Jemima refuses to get off the sofa!!! If we go to give her a nudge she growls, now i know this is a warning and i can't reprimand her for this, but i also know she is not in pain she is just too comfortable to move...i am the same if someone tries to get me up when i am asleep!!! she is not very food focussed we have tried cheese/ham etc and it doesn't appeal to her as much as sleeping!!! so it is not working so we end up putting the lead on and ignoring her grumbles and then taking her off. I am worried that this will escalate into something else? does anyone have any ideas. she knows the off command and will get off the sofa throughout the day when asked it is just at bed time, I have read about changing the routine so maybe i should try that?

I would have a very thin lead for this and put it on early so she doesn't associate the lead going on with her being taken off the sofa. Use it as part of her training, pick the lead up, give the command, if she doesn't move use the lead to get her off, only give the command once. Once she is off you can then reward her any way you want. She will soon learn that when you give the command she has to get off, at the moment the command needs reinforcing.

She is quite sensitive to strangers as well and snapped at our neighbour the other day, completely understandably as she had a bucket collar on her head having just been spayed and he went to stroke her head ( before we could stop him she snapped) obviously he was intruding her space!!! but there was no growl before hand I am worried that us ignoring her when she growls when getting off the sofa has made her think that a warning growl doesn't work!

does anyone have any ideas?

Stroke your neighbour on the head and see how he likes it. A hand coming from above a dog is very frightening to a dog, they have to learn to accept a hand on their head, it isn't natural to them.

Having these 2 really has shown me how different 2 dogs really can be they both have had the same training, same socialisation, same everything,. Toby adores all people and is warey of dogs whilst Jemima adores other dogs and is warey of strangers!

Thanks for listening I just want to nip this in the bud and do whats best for her

Instead of thinking of nipping it in the bud, think of it as training, we need to change our thinking about our dogs so we can train them properly, we need to understand how they learn, how they think and their body language so they can communicate with us.

[maximoo]

Think about not letting her up on the couch in the eve prior to bed time. She could stay on her own pillow/bed/blanket, etc.

[jemima]

thanks for the replies, i will try putting the lead on early , hadn't thought of that!
Maximoo i don't think it would make muh difference if she were on her bed rather than the sofa, i think its the getting up/off from her sleep and havoing to go out to the loo that she is really protesting about, but i will try to see if it is

[emmabeth]

I think a change around of routine, plus leaving a trailing leash on her would be good steps to take.

Could you make going out to the loo a bit more hmm.. fun? Say change it for a short pootle type walk.. out th efront door up and down the street or drive.. and then into the garden to pee, biccie and bed. IT doesnt have to be exactly that but something a bit more interesting than 'get off sofa, go potty, bedtime'.

Otherwise I think you are doing extremely well and are probably one of the rare case where litter mates is going to work out well.

Try clicker training them,(seperately) and have a look at www.clickertraining.com for some usefulinfo there.

You dont need to go to training classes - training classes are about training the owners more than they are about training thedog and ify ou WANT to you can learn all you need to know elsewhere. Well done for walking away from the bad class, its something a lot of people dont have the strength or courage of conviction to do.

[Newfiesmum]

Just wanted to say well done for getting rid of this old fashioned, idiot trainer. About this sofa business...........you say you live in Yorkshire? Could her not wanting to get up and go outside to the loo have anything to do with the heavy snow? It is just a guess, but can you trace it back to when the temperatures really started to drop? I don't think I would want to have to go outside to the loo in this weather either.

When I was a little girl I vaguely remember that we only had an outside toilet. I was very small but it has stuck in my mind how I used to put off going to bed as long as possible because I did not want to go outside to the toilet!

[jemima]

Just wanted to update you, Jemima is much improved and now gets off the sofa when asked at bedtime, all your advice was helpfull not sure what actually cracked it, but we did lead, trail of cheddar biscuits ( the only think she would get off for) and a change of routine, ie we didn't go staright to bed after and stayed up for a little bit longer. She still has a little grumble but it is just a grumble, and like someone said I moan when I get dragged out of bed so I guess she's just like her Mummy

thanks for all the help! now got another issue but I'll set up another post for that.

[Mattie]

Well done, her improvement is down to the hard work you have put in, she will improve so eventually she will get off when asked, it just takes time and consistancy.

[MissCarla]

I just wanted to post to say I am incredibly jealous of your yard!!! So beautiful!!!

[jemima]

thankyou for all your lovely words, we're trying and they are both very good to be fair
and yes we are very lucky where we live all though the weather is PANTS!!!! snow rain and gales for 6months and the other 6 months, rain and wind with a few sunny days, and when it is sunny the midges come out and eat you alive so you go back indoors!

[Fundog]

Oh my gosh, it's gorgeous there-- an absolute paradise for dogs that love to run! (Can I come and live with you?)

Not to long back we were having the same issues with our Dottie that you are having with your Jemima at bedtime toilet: She was comfortable and did not want to be bothered. If we tried to press the issue, she growled and snapped. After some thought on the problem, we came to the following conclusions:

1) After the bedtime potty, we always closed the master bedroom door and did not allow the dogs back in to sleep with us.
2) Dottie prefers to sleep with Mommy and Daddy, and feels insecure when shut out of the bedroom. (She paces outside our door)
3) She learned that if she got up to go bedtime potty, she would not be allowed back in.

The solution was thus:

1) We did not press the issue, and let Dottie stay in the room with us. Later in the night she would wake me, needing to go out.
2) If Dottie woke me wanting to go out during the night, I did not allow her back into the room with me when we came back into the house. This helped her learn that if she wants to spend the whole night with Mommy, she needs to sleep through.
3) If Dottie did cooperate at bedtime potty, we began leaving the door open, and did not close it until Dottie was back in the room with us and settled. Once she realized that she would not be shut out, she began to relax and become more cooperative about being disturbed before bed.

And last but not least: We had a problem with Dottie curling up in our bed, right where our own bodies needed to go, and not making room for us. If we tried to get her to move over even a little, she growled. So we moved her bed from where it had been across the room, to a cozy corner next to my side of the bed. Now she just goes straight to her own bed and curls up, often without being asked, but even when we do ask, she does cheerfully at the slightest request.

I don't know what your bedtime routine is currently, or where the dogs are meant to sleep during the night, but sometimes the solution takes more thinking about the problem first, then is easily resolved once you understand what the dog is really trying to say. In Dottie's case, it was, "I want to sleep with Mommy and Daddy. If I get up and go potty, I won't be able to."

[Mattie]

thankyou for all your lovely words, we're trying and they are both very good to be fair
and yes we are very lucky where we live all though the weather is PANTS!!!! snow rain and gales for 6months and the other 6 months, rain and wind with a few sunny days, and when it is sunny the midges come out and eat you alive so you go back indoors!

Jemima does't live far from me, in fact she is between me and Emmabeth Being at the top of the Pennines all the rain is dropped there so it doesn't get to me.

[jemima]

Being at the top of the Pennines all the rain is dropped there so it doesn't get to me. [/quote]

too true we get absolutely battered up here! Might as well be in the shetland isles! Today has been awful we are really exposed and the gales have been awful haven't had any trees down but loads of branches, and the puppies escaped (somebody left the gate open!) me trying to recall against the wind, whilst they are running around 10 acres chasing a poor hare ...= no chance! Definately going to get a whistle!!!!

[Mattie]

Even a whistle wouldn't have worked in the wind yesterday, my poor dogs were terrified of it. The M62 was closed at one point when a lorry went over and all high sided vehicles and caravans were stopped from going across on the M62.