Collie Problem

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cstrachan
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:30 am

Collie Problem

Post by cstrachan »

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My collie Skye is giving me some problems, she is 1 year and 4 months old. The problem that we have is that she is perfect in the house but as soon as she is outside she is very difficult to control, she pulls(Canny collar works to some effect for this), barks, lunges at passing cars, lunges at other dogs after a sniff and lunges at people who walk past unless they stop and pet her but then she growls. We have had a professional in who told us to growl at her when she does wrong, throw a chained pillow to the ground to give her a shock and we have also tried water bombs, the problem with these techniques is that the dog gets really scared of us, the water from the water bomb soaks people walking past, I sound stupid growling and carrying water bombs everywhere is ridiculous.

Can anyone suggest anything to help please

Thanks
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
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Location: Surrey

Re: Collie Problem

Post by ladybug1802 »

First of all...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont throw the water bombs or the pillow. Can I ask - did you get Barkbusters out??? This sounds just like the advice they give...I did get them out when I first had problems with Dylan, and was so unhappy with them I complained about their methods and managed to get a refund. She told me to use water bombs to distract my dog from cats....I said I thought this would make his fear issues worse, and she disagreed. I kept disagreeing with her about the fact that throwing a pillow down and throwing water bombs would actually make matters worse, so in the end I complained to them, gave examples of other 'professionals' who agreed with me, and I got a refund. But I would never, ever use them again!

Sounds like your collie has some nervous/fear issues by the fact she lunges at cars and people, growls if people come to pet her....I have a rescue dog who we are sure has some collie in him, and he has had similar issues with people until he gets to know them (look at my many other posts!). If I tried these things with Dylan they would make him worse....they will make your dog lose trust in youe, and she would associate feeling fearful, with an extra bad experience, only reinforcing the view she has anyway that these things are definitely very scary.

What you need to do is take a few steps back.....she is acting this way to tell you that she isnt comfortable, and you now need to listen to her. Other more expert like people than me will be able to give youmore in depth ideas, but with people, for example, you need to keep her at a comfortable distance, whatever distance that might be for her, and gradually reward her for being within a certain distance from people without reacting. Do you do clicker training with her? I have used the clicker to gradually get Dylan to associate walking past people with good things, because he knows the click means he has done good, and he gets a yummy treat!

With the pulling on lead - have you tried to teach her to not pull on the lead? Its not something a dog will do natrually unless you teach them....and this does take time but can be done. There are posts on here about loose lead walking.

With the cars, there are lots of people on here who will be able to give you step by step guides on what to do, but again you need to find a distance she is happy with, and then start working within that distance. But dont push her out of her comofrt zone.....when I tried that with Dylan, thinking the more I exposed him to that he was worried about tghe better he would be, it worked in the opposite way and made him more fear aggressive. Now we have had no incidences for months, and the only issues we have really is with people coming toi the house, but I know how to manage it now.

But either way - you need to listen to your girl as this is her way of communicating with you to tell you she is uncomfortable. She growls at the moment at people, but if you dont listen and get her to trust you will look out for her, she will hjave no choice but to escalate this to an air snap, then a nip, then a bite if she isnt listened to.

Hope that makes sense!

Oh and what a gorgeous looking dog!
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cstrachan
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Re: Collie Problem

Post by cstrachan »

Thank you ladybug1802

Your guess is correct in that we had bark busters come and see her and they said that she was dominant over my wife and I. They suggested the bombs etc... and we tried it for a week or 2 and then I couldn't do it any more the poor girl was becoming scared so we stopped but we have still not really managed to get her under control.
I have a clicker but we gave up on that when these problems started to appear, but I shall look it out and get using it again, I had never thought of using it the way you have suggested. It was always used for sit, stay, come here and high fives.

With the pulling on the lead I have tried some techniques such as stopping every time she pulls, blocking her when she gets in front of me, using a toy, then reverted to halti's and canny collars. I want desperately to move away from such devices as she just tries to scratch them off, she looks a bit crazy when she does that, which doesn't win her any friends.
I will check some other posts for loose leash walking and I will take on your suggestions about comfortable distances as well, Sky and I thank you for your response.
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Collie Problem

Post by ladybug1802 »

If I were you I would complain to Barkbusters head office.....speak to a guy called Marcus (in fact I probably still have his email address and mobile number as I made his life hell for ages as he seemed to be avoiding my calls. But I was so appalled with what they had suggested for my dog that i didnt give up. Out of interest, where do you live? Wondering if it was the same person who came out to you?

If I had continued with these methods with my dog there is no doubt he would have got worse and worse and worse. And the fact that I questioned her and wouldnt do the 'techniques' with my dog, and here was she, a so called professional suggesting I basically scare my dog out of his fear, didnt instill me with confidence!

Sounds like your girl has similar problems to my boy....and the help I have received on here has been invaluable! Have a look through some of my other posts....and I have also posted on the Success Stories which will show you how well things work!

Clicker training is brilliant - yes it can be used for basics like sit, stay etc, but for ongoing things....it basically helps with the bond between you guys and you can teach the dog anything with the clicker! Like I use it for a lot of things, but it has been great for training Dylan to his crate....I mean I never shut him in unless it when guests come round initially, but I have used the clicker to do it...now when I say 'crate' he bounds in there, spins round, sits and waits for the click and treat! And it has been great for outside......if I now say 'watch me' he will trot along next to me, through a crowd of people, looking up at me, and I have used the clicker for this too. He used to lunge at people if they got too close. Mind you I dont let anyone stroke him when out, as he hates eye contact, and strangers bending over him or patting his head, and it has moved us on far faster by not letting anyone try to touch him.

Hopefully other people will give you some great advice very soon!
Sarah83
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Re: Collie Problem

Post by Sarah83 »

I used a clicker to get Rupert over his billion and one fears. It really did help build his confidence. I've seen a lot of people with collies and collie crosses having problems with the dog lunging at cars so you're definitely not alone on that one although I don't have any advice to help. I agree with Ladybug, don't throw water at her or frighten her (what exactly is a chained pillow by the way?). There's no need to growl either.

For the pulling, have you tried the turn and walk in the opposite direction? viewtopic.php?f=20&t=858 Instead of setting a destination go out for a set time (5-10 minutes) several times a day and work on loose leash walking. For the times I absolutely had to get somewhere with Rupert(I don't drive and he had to go to the vets every few weeks at the time) I used a halti and did the training on a normal collar but as Mattie suggests in that post a harness is better.
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Collie Problem

Post by ladybug1802 »

I think the chain pillow is basically a small pillow thing which has a thin chain thing inside so when it drops it makes a bit of a noise? Like I say - Barkbusters seem to give the same advice for everyone and I cant believe they advise scaring a dog that is having fear/nervous issues. I really think cstrachan should complain as they are not cheap! If you need the info let me know - you cant seem to call head office directly so it isnt easy!

I have to say I do growl at Dylan, but not in this way - I only do it when we are a agility and in the first half hour he gets SO excited after he has done the equipment that at the end he bounces all over the place, jumps up at me and pulls my clothing....i find if I do a low growly type noise and turn my back on him and walk away he stops....its the only thing that stops him to be honest! I would never growl at him when he is being at all fearful/worried about something.....it isnt him behaving 'wrong' - to him it is correct as it is him communicating.
emmabeth
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Re: Collie Problem

Post by emmabeth »

Ach, Bark *spit* Busters...

If you are up for a battle, complain like heck, make a real pain in the butt of yourself and get your money back, they are a shocking outfit overcharging for outdated and terrible methods.

Clicker training - theres a thread in the articles section but also go to www.clickertraining.com - it has SO much more potential than what you have currently been doing with it. It isnt all that important *what* you teach with it, its the process of teaching, learning, success and clear communication that builds up confidence and trust and creates a brilliant bond between dog and owner.

I recommend doing a LOT of this with your dog not just because of the confidence building aspect and the bond building/repairing aspect, but also because mentally it gives your dog lots to thinka bout.

Busy mind = happy dog (as long as the busy is good stuff!).

Now to the real issue - her behaviour which is probably frustration mixed with fear and if it isnt... it will do no harm to treat it as such. Thats a REALLY important thing to consider when working out what a dogs problem is and how to fix it - pick the route that will do no harm. If i am wrong and theres no fear, theres no harm in taking it slow and treating as if there is fear. If I were to gues s(which as educated as it may be, this can only ever be a guess) that its just frustration (or worse, some random meaningless thing like 'dominance' or 'bad dog'... :x ) and treat it as such (as you have been made to do), then theres a real risk of things being made worse,.

So - cut your walks down, 5/10 minutes. Before you go 'OMG she will be bouncing off the walls' - you will take up the slack there by doing lots of 5/10 minute walks, which wont take you that much more time than doing one longer walk would.

The reason behind this is to maximise your success ad minimise failure which is the key to a happy dog who learns how to behave and can deal with her fears.

Its easy to do 5 minutes of loose leash walking practice - its damn hard to maintain that level of consistancy for both you and the dog, for an entire hour. So if you did 1 hour and failed repeatedly, she gets to go nuts at someone/something, pulls, you get annoyed and frustrated..... thats not good and her stress levels are up and shes again practiced behaviours you dont want and further ingrained in her mind she must behave this way.

If you did 5 x 10 minute walks - ok you wont get further than the end of your street and you may get a little dizzy constantly about turning (read the method for loose leash walking in the articles section!), but you would have 5 x successful, positive walks and a happy and knackered dog!

So forget 1 hour walks or even half hour walks, a nd forget going anywhere specific or completeing a set route. Just focus on loose leash walking, and avoiding scarywary things. Do whatever you need to do to avoid these - about turn, hide behind a parked car, distract like mad, go back inside - whatever it takes, and you need to stay calm and chilled as you do it.

Walk her on a harness and long leash (not a flexi) - use a double ended leash to her collar as well if you feel more in control that way and use a good six foot leash.

What all this will do is, give her good mental exercise and improve the bond between you and repair the damage done by the stupid bark busters advice. Take the pressure off her over scary/windy uppy things so her stress levels can drop down.

Do this and nothing else for at least a fortnight and keep a close eye on her and see how she changes. Dont be tempted to push her or overface her, and do make sur eyou do a lot of games and clicker work at home (you can also give her 'work' to do by feeding from Kong type toys and playing with puzzles susch as the Nina Ottoson range). After two weeks of chilling out and brain-training then we can begin to think about where to go with actively addressing the things shes worried about or frustrated about.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Collie Problem

Post by ladybug1802 »

emmabeth wrote:Ach, Bark *spit* Busters...

If you are up for a battle, complain like heck, make a real pain in the butt of yourself and get your money back, they are a shocking outfit overcharging for outdated and terrible methods.
Yes indeed Emmabeth! I cant STAND them, and am ashamed I even got them out....but I only got them out the once and it was a long long long time ago and I learnt my lesson! I would definitely complain.....I really hope you do. But you do need to be quite persistent...in fact I threatened to take further action as he wasnt replying to my emails or calls, then all of a sudden, I got an email offering some money back. I kept going and increased the amount so got a full refund. I made a real pain in the butt of myself! I just felt genuniely appalled that they charged so much money for using such appalling methods, and was so upset that,had I continued to use their methods, my dog would have got worse.
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cstrachan
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Re: Collie Problem

Post by cstrachan »

Thank you Emmabeth, that sounds like a very good plan so I will try the shorter walks with her over the next couple of weeks and see how she gets on.

I'm definitely going to complain about them so ladybug1802 can you do me a favour and send me the email contacts for the bark busters please.
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Collie Problem

Post by ladybug1802 »

Hi cstrachan...have sent you a PM with the guy's email address....let me know how you get on or if you need any help!
MichelleD
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:56 pm

Re: Collie Problem

Post by MichelleD »

I've never heard of barkbusters, but they sound horrible.

cstrachan, I received the same advice on these boards about doing more frequent, shorter walks for my reactive dog, and I can tell you it's worthwhile! I was so concerned about making sure that my dog got EXERCISE that I tried to take him on long-ish walks which only brought us both home frustrated. Started doing shorter walks with him, and more play in the backyard, and have made a lot of progress with that plan.

Good luck!
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