Dog neurotic about peeing outside

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Crunchie
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Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

I'm having a toilet training issue with my 4-year-old Labrador x kelpie, and am rather desperate for advice at this point. She will often refuse to pee outside in the garden, no matter how much opportunity she's given or how many times I let her out - and once inside and my back is turned, will pee on the living room carpet. It got to the point earlier in the year where she just constantly used it as her toileting area, even peeing in front of me once. When the dogs were in pet minding a month ago, I took it as an opportunity to break the habit - got the carpets professionally treated, have been very vigilant since she got back, and there had been no accidents. This morning, however, she peed on the carpet again, despite two trips outside with plenty of time and opportunity to relieve herself. She has a toilet command that she knows, but often when I give it, she simply sits or hides behind plants, making out she doesn't need to go when I know that she must. She'll hold on for hours and hours sometimes, ignoring every opportunity in the garden - and usually this ends with her sneaking off to pee in the living room.

I'm feeling rather desperate about this - I can't bear for the cycle to start all over again when I've been trying so hard to break it. She's a lovely dog and well behaved otherwise - I know it must be me and not her, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong. My German shepherd would never dream of peeing inside unless she was in absolutely dire straits, and I can't see that I do anything differently with her. I’ve had both since they were puppies, got them within a month or two of each other, and although this has been an issue for my kelpie in the past, it’s never been as bad as it got this year. The other morning she just refused and refused to pee after holding on overnight, so I had to leave her outside when I went to work - waiting for her to pee had actually made me quite late. I live in Australia and it’s starting to heat up for summer, so I can’t keep leaving her outside. My mother very kindly comes in during the day to let them out when I’m at work, but she too has found that the kelpie will often ignore the opportunity to pee, and she really has to wait around before anything happens. I go out of my way to consistently keep the pee command neutral-positive, and give lots of praise for peeing outside. I also don’t make a fuss when she pees inside so she’s not getting attention for that either – I just put her outside and clear up the mess. It's not as though she dislikes or is afraid of being in the garden - she happily trots around sniffing at things, or sleeping in the sun, etc. She's eager to go outside - just not to pee out there.

If anyone can give me some insight into this issue, I’d be really, really grateful. Thanks!
emmabeth
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by emmabeth »

Will she pee elsewhere?

What happens after she pees, does she get to stay out and sniff around, play maybe, or does she go straight inside.

Could she be worried about peeing where the other dog pees?
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Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

Thanks so much for responding. :)

Inside the house, she has stuck pretty much to the living room, though there isn't one particular spot that she pees. This morning, for example, she peed behind the couch where I didn't immediately find it. She has peed once or twice in the kitchen and another tiled room - this happened when she was shut inside while the other dog and I were outside, though, and I think it may have been excitement or anxiety pee. In the garden, she likes to pee in more or less the same area of the lawn, however, she does regularly pee in other spots as well. As a puppy, it took her a long time to pee anywhere other than the garden of the house we lived in at the time - she didn't pee at the park, for example, for months - but now she regularly pees on walks and in other outdoor settings.

Different things happen after she pees, depending on the time of day, and also because I've been trying so many different things with her toilet routine. In the morning, she's really eager to get back inside, so I do let her in once she's peed. The rest of the day, she usually gets at least 15 minutes to spend in the garden after she's peed. If she pees while we're playing outside, or if we're on a walk, we just keep playing or walking as before. The midday break, when my mother comes in, there is a set routine - she always lets the dogs pee first, and then spends time playing ball with them before leaving.

I was wondering whether she's avoiding peeing where the other dog pees. Is that likely, even though they've lived their entire lives together? My German shepherd doesn't stick to a certain area to pee, like the kelpie tends to do - though as I said above, the kelpie will pee in different spots too. I always put them out separately for toileting so that the kelpie has her own space and time to do it. The garden actually has a little fence down the middle with a gate, so often I'll close the gate and put them out on either side - that way, they're together, but have their own space to pee. However, both do have access to both areas the rest of the time.

Another thing I should've mentioned before is that she goes really, really low to the ground to pee - total frog position. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but just thought I'd throw it in there.
Sarah83
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Sarah83 »

Is she reluctant to pee other places outside or just the garden? And has she been checked for a UTI? Maybe it hurts to pee and she feels safer doing it indoors? You say she seems fine out in the garden other than refusing to pee, I wonder whether something's frightened her WHILE she's peeing at some point?
Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

Thank you for responding too. :)

She has always been particular about where she likes to pee. I remember I took her on a weekend away when she was about four months old. She held on longer than all the books say they can at that age - must've been about ten hours. Plenty of rest stops, big garden to romp around in when we arrived at our destination, but she just wouldn't pee. In the end, of course, she ended up peeing inside because she just couldn't hold it any more. I think she'd been waiting to get back to her own garden.

She has relaxed more since then, and will pee on walks or at the park if she needs to. I mean, I've moved twice since then, and she has adjusted immediately to each new garden. It's just that she won't automatically pee when she goes out after spending quite long periods inside, like most dogs do - even when she's given plenty of time - and then she seems to feel it's OK to pee inside. I mean, this morning both dogs obviously needed to pee when I got up, and I let them out straight away. The German shepherd peed as soon as she got on the grass, and I'd just assumed that the kelpie would too. I don't know why I didn't watch her - it's not usual that I'd assume anything on this issue, but I can't think what distracted me now. Anyway, I believe it was actually after this, when I let her back inside and was putting washing in the machine, that she went into the living room and peed there instead. It was basically that she needed to pee, had the opportunity and time to pee outside in a place she pees regularly, but chose to wait until she was back in the house to do it. However, this afternoon when I went outside with her and gave her the command, she turned and went straight away - no reluctance or hiding behind plants or any of the usual behaviour. I just can't really fathom what's motivating her - and I know something must be motivating her.

I have been looking out for signs of UTI. Obviously, I've seen a lot of her urine over the last eight months or so, and there's never been any sign of blood or anything vaguely abnormal. No straining, no signs of discomfort while she's peeing, like tensing or whimpering. She's been to the vet for the usual check-ups, and also because she had a couple of allergy rashes. He did check around her vulva on at least one of these check-ups, but didn't do any UTI-specific exams. Perhaps I need to get her checked out anyway, symptoms or no.

I just can't understand what happened this morning, though. She hasn't peed inside at all since she got back from the pet minder, and I know she didn't pee inside there either. That makes nearly seven weeks since she last peed inside generally, and in the living room in particular - and then this morning she does it right after she's had the opportunity to pee outside. Yet on Friday, my mother wasn't able to come and let the dogs out at midday, and I got held up at work. I was really expecting to come home to a puddle, but I didn't. I think that's why I'm so disappointed about it happening today. I really thought perhaps the cycle had finally been broken.
Wicket
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Wicket »

What's the pet minder--like a dog sitter? How does she/he handle her peeing issue?
Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

Thanks for your reponse. The dog minder is someone that my two go to stay with when I'm away. It's a boarding service where the dogs go to live with people in their own homes, instead of in a kennel. They get all the pleasures of being part of the family environment that they're used to, etc, etc. Basically, it's as if they become part of somebody else's family for that period of time.

The particular home that my dogs go to is a family with older kids. I asked whether they had any issue with her peeing, and they said no, everything was fine, but didn't go into any further detail. There are more people around during the day to let the dogs out frequently, so it's possible the fact she wouldn't have peed on every occasion went unnoticed - just that she didn't pee in the house. Also, this was back in the cooler weather, and I know they left the dogs outside if they were going to be out for any long period of time - this may also have contributed to a lack of issue. However, the short answer is that I don't really know how they dealt with the problem because they didn't report anything unusual back to me. I wonder whether, away from her usual habits and routines, this is a behaviour that she simply didn't display. A big part of why this became a problem this year is that having peed inside, she then formed a habit of peeing inside. The other behaviour, the reluctance to pee outside, I think, is what initially prompted her to be desperate enough to pee inside, but once that happened once or twice, I think it then became habit to use the living room, so there were sort of two behaviours going on at once. At the minders' house, if an initial accident never occurred, despite her history I don't think she would have started to pee inside from habit, rather than need.

As I said in one of the posts above, she peed outside without fuss yesterday afternoon, and actually did the same before bed - peed right away on the grass, didn't have to give the command, no reluctance or avoidance behaviour. It's just so unpredictable, but yesterday morning's pee in the house kind of brought home to me that I still can't trust her to pee outside when given the opportunity - that for whatever reason, she will sometimes choose to pee in the house rather than in the garden outside. I just can't quite figure out what that reason is.
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***Melissa***
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by ***Melissa*** »

Not sure if this will help, but maybe she's not 100% potty trained yet.

Try the advice in this link, and see if it helps?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6125

Is she nervous or insecure? Sometimes dogs scent mark to make them feel more secure.

It could be that the carpet smell of wee, and dogs like to use the same wee-place. Clean up with bio-degradable washing powder or vinegar - other products won't take out the smell (even if you can't smell it, she still can)

Hope it helps
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

Thanks for posting! I think her toilet training definitely went out the window before she went to the pet minder. In the month or so before that, she was going into the living room to pee no matter whether she was desperate or not. I mean, the other morning, for example, I could tell from the volume I cleaned up that it was what she'd been holding overnight. I know she must have been desperate then, I just don't know why she didn't use the garden first. Before she went to the pet minder, though, I was constantly cleaning up smaller amounts of pee, so there was definitely a major breakdown in her toilet training. Thanks for the link as well!

Today, however, I got back from work a little late again, and she hadn't peed inside. She held on, even though she'd had the accident over the weekend and might have had scent markers tempting her. I'm pretty stunned, actually, and very proud of her. Very much hoping this continues.

I hadn't sort of considered scent marking because of the volume - I suppose I assumed that involved tiny amounts of pee. Do that make a difference? She does do it in the park where we walk - every so often, she'll do a tiny, quick pee and keep moving. She is rather an anxious dog, despite efforts to the contrary. I know peeing inside makes what I'm about to say sound like a huge contradiction, but she's one of those 'pleaser' dogs, you know? Submissive, obedient, watchful, likes to please - I've heard this is pretty typical kelpie, even with the Labrador thrown in. :)

I did get a professional urine treatment done on the living room carpet while the dogs were at the minder - was hoping that the lack of peeing (until Sunday morning) was a good indication that it had worked. I mean, I do think she peed in there because she was bursting to go, but even so, I guess I can't be sure about the scent markers. The chap who did the carpets sold me some of the stuff he used, and that's what I cleaned the spot on Sunday with. Before, I was using a bio washing powder, but that didn't seem to make much difference, unfortunately. I'm hoping anyway that the deep clean treatment did the trick. I've got one of those UV torches from the pet shop, but it's pretty useless - didn't show up anything even when pointed directly at a fresh stain!

Everything helps, just to keep me thinking around the issue, so thanks again for responding.

Emmabeth, you mentioned the possibility of being nervous about peeing in the same areas as my shepherd. I mean, I don't know if that is the case, but it got me thinking, and since then, when I put them out specifically to toilet (rather than for games or whatever), I've been shutting the gate and keeping them on a particular side each. I know it's too early to tell whether this is the solution, but so far, I think she has been peeing more readily, not doing the avoidance behaviours, etc. I'm also not giving her the command for now, just letting her pee when she's ready and then praising like crazy. I'm going to continue doing this and see how it goes. Fingers crossed!
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***Melissa***
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by ***Melissa*** »

It's normal for dogs to mark on walks - it's what they do. :wink: But scent marking inside your home usually means stress / fear / insecurity.

Clicker training is a great way to build their confidence, have a wonderful relationship with your dogs, doesn't take much time, tires them out mentally and an easy way to teach them new things, so maybe give it a try: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513

Mmm...IF she's insecure, then clicker training will build her confidence and she should then stop scent marking inside the house.

Emmabeth will be here wit more (better!) info :wink:
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

I'd say you've probably hit the nail on the head with the insecurity issue, actually. I don't think it's the sole reason for the peeing inside - in fact, the more I've been processing this issue using the great comments here, the more I'm seeing that there's a few things going on. At this stage, I can identify at least three factors that have been contributing to the one problem, and of course, that's why it's been so difficult to change - because I'd just been focusing on one or two things.

Last night the kelpie peed inside again for the second time since returning from the minder. I had to take my shepherd to the after hours vet, and the kelpie was home alone. I probably shouldn't have left her inside because I suspected this might trigger an accident, but it was late-ish, I didn't want to leave her outside - and a part of me wanted to see whether she would actually pee or not. She had peed in the hour before I left, so I knew she wouldn't be desperate. Sure enough, I returned to find a small volume of pee in the living room. When I saw it, I actually thought of your comment straight away, so this definitely brought home to me that part of this behaviour is linked to anxiety when she's home alone on the odd occasion. This morning, I had to take my shepherd to our regular vet as well, and I again left the kelpie in the house - but blocked the entrance to the living room so she didn't have access. I didn't return to a puddle, so I'm guessing there are still scent markers/habit that draw her into the living room. Perhaps since there's nothing in the other rooms, that's the reason she didn't mark. She's now had one pee inside because she was desperate to go on Sunday, and one pee inside due to stress/insecurity, which was last night. I'm more than a little worried at this point that if she pees inside once or twice more for the same reasons, she'll go right back to peeing there from habit as well. So far, she has been holding her bladder while I'm at work, so if that changes, I'll know she's relapsed again.

I do enjoy teaching them new things, whether they're tricks or just practical things, and both have a pool of regular commands that they'll respond to. I've always used a reward word until now, but I realise that isn't as beneficial as clicker training. It's something I'll definitely look into - I know I have at least one clicker around here. Thanks for the link, and thanks for all your comments. They've really been helpful, honestly, and I very much appreciate them. :)
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***Melissa***
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by ***Melissa*** »

I hope your GSD is okay?

Please keep us updated on how it goes with your Kelpie - and ask again when questions arise :wink:

Just something else I forgot to say - when she does have an accident in the house (no matter what the reason) never ever scold her or tell her off. In fact - don't even clean if if she can see you. Dogs read our body language and even when we try our bestest not to look disappointed or angry it still shows - and some dogs are VERY sensitive to this. If she is like that it will make her even more insecure, which will mean more scent marking. When she has an accident - call her away to another room / outside and give her something to occupy her for a while, or close the door - then clean her wee when she's not with you and can't see you.
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
emmabeth
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by emmabeth »

I think you are on the right track here, work on building her confidence - dont leave her with access to the living room if you go out with the shepherd and leave her behind, continue with shutting the gate when they are outside to pee.

Not sure if this was mentioned but are you rewarding her really well when she does pee outside? If not, start doing that too.

It will take time, its partly habit and partly her anxieties which as you are seeing are triggered by various things. I think you are doing good though and making good progress!
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Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

Thank you so much for all your replies and encouragement. I really do appreciate it. :)

First, thank you for asking - my shepherd is OK. She suddenly went lame in the evening, hence the after hours vet dash. At this point, there are a few contenders, including cruciate rupture, but nothing confirmed yet. She's on bed rest, but over the last 48 hours, seems to have improved a lot, so I'm hoping - as is our vet - that it may just have been a pull or a sprain. In typical shepherd fashion, she seems more put out about the bed rest than her leg.

Back to the kelpie. I've never reprimanded her for peeing in the house, and do my best to show no reaction at all, actually - just calmly put her outside and clean it up before letting her back in. However, my stress levels were pretty high just before they went into the minder, when things were at their worst, so I'm sure she picked up on that at least some of the time. Happily, on this issue, they're much better now, so she should be feeling that as well.

Likewise, she definitely gets big praise for peeing outside, and usually some other form of reward, either ball or food. I try to vary things so that she doesn't necessarily know what she'll get, just that it'll be good. I have stopped giving her the pee command for now because that seemed to trigger a whole cycle of avoidance behaviours in the garden - hiding behind plants, rolling on her back, sniffing at random stuff, sitting and looking away, the whole nine yards. Now I just let her out, and she has begun to pee within about ten minutes if she needs to go - and she has been going at the key times, like morning and evening. During the day when I'm home, if she doesn't do a pee, I don't say anything, just let her back inside. I'm hoping that at some point down the track, I may be able to reintroduce a toilet command - might have to choose a new word and start over, I don't know. If anybody has any recommendations on this point, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks again for your time!
Crunchie
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Re: Dog neurotic about peeing outside

Post by Crunchie »

A few days ago, I was ready to make a 'everything is going great' update, but today I find I'm having to make completely the opposite type of update - I feel like I'm heading back to square one. :(

So, everything was going great until Thursday. In the seven weeks since the dogs returned from the minder, there had been two accidents inside - the first one that prompted this post, and the second one when the kelpie was left alone one night. I felt I was getting a handle on her motivations and triggers - always letting her out to pee in her favourite section of the garden away from the other dog, blocking her access to the living room when I take the other dog out, etc, etc. I'd removed the 'pee' command from the process for a while, as it seemed to stress her out, and she had started to toilet more reliably at the key times (morning and evening) and was holding it successfully while I was out at work, etc. Recently, I've reintroduced the 'pee' command, and she's been comfortably responding to that. If she doesn't toilet on the command at this point, I'm not insisting or repeating - just taking her at her 'word' that she doesn't need to go and letting her back inside. So far, all of this had been working very well.

Another thing to mention - a couple of weeks ago now, I did take her to the vet for a check-up, just because I have been concerned about how long she holds her bladder and her apparent reluctance to pee. It turned out that although she didn't have a UTI, there were crystals present in the urine, possibly caused by too much veg in the diet. They have ready-made raw food meals delivered from a local company, so I've switched around a little and am now adding extra steak-and-kidney into each meal. They've been on the new mix for a little under two weeks, and about four days ago now, I noticed that the kelpie has been toileting more frequently. Instead of peeing twice, maybe three times a day, she now toilets at least four times. I'm wondering whether the change in diet has had the desired effect and eliminated the crystals from her urine, making it more comfortable to pee. She's also peeing more readily in other areas of the garden, and has been responding to the pee command without fuss or avoidance behaviour. So, obviously I've been feeling this is a positive move for her.

On Thursday night, my mother came over to help me sort some boxes for storage. The dogs love my mother - they also know her quite well, as they see her on the three days a week that I work out of the house when she comes to let them out for a toilet break. At some point late in the evening, I discovered a urine patch in the living room, where the kelpie had obviously peed. I tried not to feel too upset about this - figured that I'd been so busy with the packing, etc, that I had lost track of time and possibly not noticed her signals for needing to pee. However, this pee did happen when she wouldn't have been bursting to go, and she wasn't alone in the house, so I felt uneasy about it, to be honest.

On Saturday morning, a truck came to pick up the things for storage. The dogs were in my bedroom and calm while the stuff was carried out by the guys. Once that was done, I let the dogs out for a toilet break, where both peed, then I followed the truck to the storage place. When I returned a little over an hour later, I found that my German shepherd had pooed in the living room. I was pretty upset about this, but didn't react in front of the dogs - just put them outside, cleaned up the mess. That evening, I went to dinner at my parents' place, which I do just about every week. I was gone for about three hours, which is also usual, and certainly less than the time I spend at work. When I returned, I found two pee patches on the living room carpet - one really, really tiny, and another quite small patch. Again, didn't fuss - just put the dogs out and cleaned up the mess. What was strange, though, was that the kelpie peed outside straight away, but my GS wouldn't pee, which is very unusual for her if I've been out for a while. Now I'm wondering whether she may have been responsible for the pee patch instead.

Sunday, I was out in the morning for a few hours, and came home to poo in the living room from my GS. I was out for two hours in the evening, and came home to a clean house - no pee, no poo from GS.

Today, again, I've been out in the middle of the day - returned to poo from the GS and a pee patch. I feel pretty hopeless now, I suppose, because prior to Thursday, there had been two accidents in seven weeks with clear causes. Things seemed to be working. I was so happy not to return home to a sewer every day. Since Thursday, everything seems to have gone to hell. It's just about returned to how it used to be - cleaning up pee inside after most trips away from the house, only now with the added bonus of clearing up poo from my GS.

I'm afraid that somehow the pee on Thursday has triggered the old behaviour, so now there's the issue of habit to deal with as well. I am usually home four out of seven days each week, aside from a shopping run or quick trips like that, so I can watch them closely. The other three days, though, I'm out of the house and that's not negotiable. If they start/return to toileting then, even with my mother coming in to let them out at midday, I'm not sure how to prevent the cycle from just keeping on.

I've definitely been away from the house more over the last week, and I know that's my fault and not the dogs'. Unfortunately, it's the week before Christmas break, and I can't get around needing to go out. I am making sure that they aren't being left for longer blocks of time than they're used to, and that they're toileting before I go out. After Christmas, I'll be home for a week, but I know that a week won't be enough to change this behaviour.

I mean, I live in a rental house. If this was my house, I would just rip the carpet up, get a hard floor put in and be done with it, but I can't do that. So, that's adding even more pressure because I really can't afford to replace the carpet if they damage it permanently.

Everything was going so well until Thursday night! I understand that it may be anxiety from my going out more frequently, but that being said, there have only been two days where I've gone out when I wouldn't necessarily do that. The rest has been standard to their routine, and yet they're peeing and pooing inside anyway. Please help. :(

EDIT: When I returned home from an errand later this evening, I found that my GS had pooed in the house again. That's twice today, and four times in the last three days. Her exercise routine has changed lately due to a knee injury, but that's been going on for a couple of weeks now, and hasn't affected her feeding schedule.
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