BITING SPRINGER

[Drunkentulip]

Please help! Im starting to go mad!!!
Ive posted on here before about my 10 month old springer spaniel who is always biting. We have tried everything, ignoring him/time outs, yelping, telling him off, diverting his attention etc etc. But he still continues to bite, if not worse than before. My partner and I are covered in scratches, bruises and scars. he also seems to bite my family and my partners family, basically anyone that he knows and has seen before. On a couple of occassions, he has even lunged at me and then bitten me which obviously scared me. Other times hes such a loving dog but we cant take anymore. We have taken him to training, we take him on 2 long walks every day.Its like when hes excited he bites, but when we tell him to do something, he bites, and then when hes being told off, he bites.Sometimes, he can just be sat there quietly, and then he will bite us. it is more than just play biting and nipping now. But we love him so much. Can anyone help please?!!!

[Wicket]

Has the vet declared him healthy (blood, organs, thyroid)? Does he growl (or any other warning signs) before he bites or does it just come suddenly? What kind of training has he received?

[Drunkentulip]

we just took him to basic puppy training, however because of the shift work we do we cant always take him to the other classes. we do training at home with him too, and also do tricks with him every so often.
when he lunged at me he did growl slightly but other times he doesnt.
we took him to the vet not so long ago, they havent taken any bloods or anything, but they said he appeared to be healthy. we had him castrated approximately 3 months ago too so thought that might have helped but it seems to have had the opposite effect.

[Fundog]

You really need to get those bloods done, to rule out problems even a vet cannot see, just by physical exam.

You mentioned you've tried all kinds of things, including "etc." but I have to ask... have you tried getting up (without saying anything) and shutting yourselves in a different room for ten seconds-- leaving the dog alone by himself?

I also have a springer mix that we've had since a young puppy. She too was really mouthy and nippy, but by full maturity (15 months for Springer Spaniels) she had out-grown her behavior. So that's the good news. It takes what seems like forever, but they do eventually grow up. Oh, another thing we found helpful during that stage, was to always have a sofa pillow in our laps, and use that as a shield, to ward off sudden nips before getting up and retreating elsewhere.

[Drunkentulip]

yeah we have tried getting up and walking out of the room, he doesnt like that, he waits for us by the door to go back in, but as soon as we settle back down hes biting us again.
Ill take him to the vets i think then, just to rule anythign out. He seems fine in himself otherwise, very hyper as springers are.

[runlikethewind]

I've lost count of how many times I have read on here that getting their dog castrated has not helped over excitability.

Anyway... why not try one method again and only one (but not the telling off method)? It's not clear how long you tried the other methods for. If you carry out the time outs consistently and each and every time, your dog will learn that the fun is over when you leave. I would say you have to twin these time outs with calm praise of doing the right thing too when he is good. You'll find a lot on here about that or do a youtube search on clicker training for calmness.

What are you feeding?

When he growled - was it a playful growl? It sounds like it was.

[Drunkentulip]

We are feeding him James wellbelived dry food which seems to suit him as he had trouble with diarrhoea.when he growled,it wasn't playful,he showed his teeth then bit me quite badly.

[runlikethewind]

Ok in that case you have a different issue I suspect - not one of playful biting but of attempts to communicate to you all. Read the recent posts on aggression - do a quick search.I'll post some here in a mo. He growled and then bit you because he was trying to communicate. Do you remember what you were doing to him or at him when he growled? Did you stop what you were doing?

The levels of communcation of a dog not liking something are numerous before a dog chooses to bite - which is an ABSOLUTE last resort. Dogs find it very stressful to have to use aggression to communicate. He has learn the only way he can stop you from doing something he does not like is biting. This is serious and will need you to realise earlier that is not happy with something you are doing around or to him. That way , he can then communicate better, you will read him better, and back off and everyone will be happier. Then you can rebuild trust and confidence from then on.

[runlikethewind]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8765

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8756

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8701

and so on and so on

the signs are all there - the owners missed them (like I did.. very easy to do before realising and learning)

The advice is always the same

[Drunkentulip]

Thank you for the links.do you think it is still worth taking him to the vets?

[runlikethewind]

Yes I do, like advised above by Fundog because sometimes.. a thyroid problem can cause aggression. I had the test done on my dog

[Sue1234]

we had him castrated approximately 3 months ago too so thought that might have helped but it seems to have had the opposite effect.

No, it didn't have the opposite effect, though timing and coincidence makes it seem so. Neutering can certainly help with some things like aggression to a degree (afterall, testosterone is the hormone that makes males the more aggressive gender that, when tempered, isn't necessarily a bad thing). The problem is that many folks think that neutering is a cure-all for aggression, but of course it isn't. In your dog's case it may very well have helped, but other factors kicked in to trigger aggression (age, circumstances, experiences, fears, etc.). And even if neutering had no effect whatsoever on his attitude, neither did it affect it negatively. I do agree that a visit to the vet is in order. Many disorders can cause the type of attitude you're seeing in your dog. A complete blood workup is your best bet. Good luck!

[Nettle]

we had him castrated approximately 3 months ago too so thought that might have helped but it seems to have had the opposite effect.

No, it didn't have the opposite effect, though timing and coincidence makes it seem so. Neutering can certainly help with some things like aggression to a degree (afterall, testosterone is the hormone that makes males the more aggressive gender that, when tempered, isn't necessarily a bad thing). The problem is that many folks think that neutering is a cure-all for aggression, but of course it isn't. In your dog's case it may very well have helped, but other factors kicked in to trigger aggression (age, circumstances, experiences, fears, etc.). And even if neutering had no effect whatsoever on his attitude, neither did it affect it negatively.

That is what many people used to think, but it isn't correct. We know much more now of the multiple effects of castration. Males are not the more aggressive sex (b itch fights are far more likely to result in a seriously injured or dead dog than dog fights) and testosterone has many roles in correct development, both physical and mental.

Where a dog is fearful (by far the main cause of what is so often interpreted as "aggression") castration is far more likely to make him more fearful, and it will also change other dogs' attitudes towards him.

As a preventative of unwanted litters, it does a good job. Behaviourally, its effects are very complex and hardly ever positive.

[jacksdad]

Neutering can certainly help with some things like aggression to a degree (afterall, testosterone is the hormone that makes males the more aggressive gender that, when tempered, isn't necessarily a bad thing).

males aren't the more aggressive gender, human or dog. in the year I have been here, I have seen more threads discussing the possibility of two female dogs living together that can't get a long killing each other than I have seen concern over two males doing the same. Not saying that two males dogs can't or won't fight to the death given the right circumstances, just that it comes up far more regarding female dogs. In humans, males may display aggression more physically or in a more in your face way. And that catches a lot of attention. However, the reality is females can be very aggressive too. it's just plays out different.

The other thing I have learned, particularly in the last year in regards to dogs is aggression is a very, very valid concern, but the label is being applied way, way to broadly. There is proper/healthy/correct aggression just like there is unhealthy out of control/over the top aggression. example of what I consider correct or healthy use of "aggression", two weeks ago I saw my dog do something for the first time that was actually huge progress for him and it was in the strictest since an aggressive action. we were at the beach, he started playing with a puppy (my dog jack is approaching 4 years old) that was about his size. things were going good for a little while. but after a few minutes Jack was done, wanted to move on. the puppy won't back off or stop. so rather than an over the top display of barking, lunging, growling etc typical of a reactive dog, Jack popped the puppy with his shoulder. did a little body block. puppy backed off and things did not progress to teeth and fangs.

health levels of testosterone doesn't make males improperly aggressive. However, if there is too much or too little, it can be a heavily influencing factor in unhealthy displays of aggression. Not enough testosterone is more likely to be tied to fear and low confidence, and fear and low confidence are more likely to lead to displays of aggression to compensate. which is why some on here suggest not neutering a dog until any fear based behavior issues are resolved.

Drunkingtulip

Just echoing Fundog's suggestion. double check with the vet, request the tests etc. in the meantime, runlikethewind makes some good points about choosing one method for dealing with the non "aggressive" biting. if you change methods too quickly your dog may not make the connection and then none of methods look like they work. you may in fact have to try two or three different things to get the message across, but don't try one for just a few days then change because it doesn't appear to work. for the more aggressively toned biting, again runlikethewind makes a good point, if a growl proceeded the nip, then try and figure out what what you might have been doing that could have made your dog uncomfortable. from a human perspective there might have been no reason to bit, but from the dogs???

also, you have basically a teenager on your hands, it's possible your dog has learned that biting gets attention. something to keep in the back of your mind.

generally dog classes do not teach you anything directly to address issues like this, so don't think your missing out by not being able to get to a class. When my dog's reactivity (dog/dog on leash aggressive displays) started showing up, I though "hey, he needs an obedience class that will fix this". Nope. the class taught me to teach him to sit, stay etc. but it didn't teach me how to deal with a nervous/fearful/low confident dog who would flip out when on leash when other dogs were around. maybe a couple one on one sessions with a good positive reinforcement trainer/behaviorist might be money better spent. Or you can just work with people here for free.

If you are ok using books to learn to train dogs, we can recommend some good ones.

[Drunkentulip]

Jacksdad,thanks for the reply.if you can recommend some good training books i would appreciate it