HELP ASAP

[KimnBoys]

Some of you have helped me already with Justice n Skipper with issues we had and thank you all so much but now I AM DESPERATE Skipper who has been so good all the sudden started to bark n growl at people n other dogs--when he did this I would turn him around wait for him to calm down etc etc etc well today he greeted our friend and neighbor and all the sudden BAM was like someone flipped a switch he growled n BIT her----luckily it was not hard enough to draw blood but he def left his mark----and luckily it was someone we know who wont turn us in-----WHAT CAN I DO??????? Theres so many little kids around who loved to pet him etc n now I am terrified to let him near anyone esp kids I do not know what to do noones returning calls or emails nothing and I do not want him to have to go back hes been through so much already--as those of you reading who helped me before remember he is a rescue beagle from a lab who knew nothn of life outside a cage til they were rescued-----this is just out of the blue noone provoked him NOTHN please if theres anyone out here that can even give advice or help in anyway ASAP let me know or unfortunatley we may have to surrender him.

[emmabeth]

Ok chill out.

Keep him away from people, stay calm with him and dont freak out if someones approaching, just turn and go the other way. DONT let anyone pet him.

Get him to a vet for a check over including bloods, because dogs DONT flip out for no reason, there IS a reason, the trick now is to find that reason.

Sometimes its illness, sometimes its a trigger you didnt pick up on such as the person he met being drug or a drug addict or taking some sort of medication (one of my dogs cannot STAND being around people on certain hormone treatments!), sometimes the body language is there and you dont see it, sometimes the body language has been punished out of a dog and is incredibly hard to read.

[Horace's Mum]

I can't remember how long you have had him, but sometimes anxious behaviours take a while to show. When I first brought my rescue boy home he was required to be muzzled (he had bitten once for an obvious reason, but he also has 2 brothers with severe behavior/aggression issues so they weren't taking any chances with Horus) but for the first 4-5 weeks I couldn't see any reason why he needed the muzzle. In fact, I was just starting to think about working with the rescue to remove his muzzle when suddenly meeting people became very scary and he was very very quick - one minute he would seem to be fine, the next he would be in full attack mode. Even now, when I really can read him so well, very very occasionally he will take me by surprise and he is so quick I can see the signs but literally don't have time to react before he does (and I am quick too!!).

So it might just be that as your boy is getting more confident in the world and his new life, he is able to start showing the things he actually does and doesn't like. Maybe he used to tolerate all the attention because he didn't know what would happen, but now he feels able to start to tell you that he would actually rather people didn't crowd him or make a fuss. Remember that contact is a pretty new thing for him, he won't have had much in the lab and it might have all just become too much.

As Em said, give him the space, don't let anyone make a fuss of him unless they are people he knows (and even then don't assume it will be ok) and always let him dictate the meeting. So give him the chance to meet a friend, keep hands away from tops of heads, and make sure he is completely able to move away and is not stopped from doing so in any way. I actually taught a routine that involved watching me as someone approached, being invited to meet the person if he so wished, he was allowed to go and sniff and have a quick hello but then I called him back to me and rewarded him for doing so. This means that now Horus is totally able to meet almost anyone (people who move strangely still worry him because he can't read them and that is more important to him because he is deaf) but he isn't bothered about hanging about for a big cuddle and fuss. He'll have a sniff, have a stroke, have a scratch for a second or two, but then he walks away and back to me and promptly ignores that person from then on. This can give the impression that he is not a friendly dog, but I would rather people thought that than he keeps ending up in situations he can't cope with which then require him to snap. The only time these days that this system fails is when he sees a friend, and then he just drags me over to say hi!!

Don't panic, it is probably just a stage, just take the time to listen to what your dog is telling you and it won't become a problem. It doesn't mean he is aggressive or vicious, just that he needs some space and you to learn to read him.

[KimnBoys]

Thank you so much Horaces Mom and Emmabeth ----- Skipper has been with us now for a little over a month--he has not done anything like this before...hes such a gentle boy. When he did bite my friend she had pet him etc and we chatted for a few mins and as she was walking away he just turned around growled and went after her leg I had no time to react it was like WHAT?! especially since he knows her -------I have called the vet and waiting for him to call us back that was my first call!!!!!!!!!!!! I have had him out since then and noone was out so there was no issues --- I just worry that theres something going on with him and just want to help.....I do not like the feeling of not knowing how to help him or make him feel better if somethings wrong if that makes sense.......

We were supposed to go tot heir reunion on Saturday and now I do not know what to do bring him or not I feel like if I dont its punishing him for this esp if it does not happen again and then when Justice goes its like unfair--ugh am I making sense probably not.....

I actually was prepared to do the watch me with him but like I said noone was around lol....

Slowly things are coming out about this lab they were doing inhalation tests on them whether or not these ones had anything done remains a mystery n Heaven only knows what else the next step before they got rescued was electrical testing!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is so nice to come back and have help again...we have also found he is TERRIFIED BY GARBAGE BAGS and when I say terrified thats what I mean he will not walk past one for nothing he runs n hides if he sees one and shakes ugh its a mess.........n hes afraid of fans that rotate so long as its just on he dont care when it starts to rotate forget it he lays down whimpers n cries and shakes--- ugh those people really messed these poor dogs up

Thank you both again for the help n advice it means soo much to know you are out there---many thanks n luv Kim

[jacksdad]

When we first brought home Jack, we patted our self on the back and keep commenting about what a good dog he was. how calm, how lucky there weren't any issues etc, etc. It took about a month for Jack to come out of his shell and let his "issues" show. then BAM. The reactivity started and escalated fast, and there was a few months there that it felt like the issues were coming faster than I could get my head around each one and then learn what to do. It can be a bit overwhelming. The trick was to figure out what to work on and what could be ignored. many, but not all of the things I chose to ignore, sorted them self out as the main issues became resolved.

Do your best to not let Skipper's "revealing himself" overwhelm you. easier said than done, but do your best. And realize your not alone. you can always come here for support.

For the moment, I personally think your top priority is like Emma says, make sure medically there is nothing wrong. Next priority is working on his bond and trust in/with you. So if that means walking odd hours so you reduce your risk of running into people, you need to do that for a while. Or maybe that means driving to some place not heavily used by other people. Don't change your garbage bags in front of him. don't let the fan rotate etc, etc. This is all short term. right now the goal is making him feel safe and secure with you and in his new home. over time you will help him learn to deal with the things that scare him and teach him you will protect him from that which is scary until he is ready to deal with it. If your not sure how to approach say the fan issue, post and ask. someone is bound to have an idea/answer/experience that can be helpful. And do that with each issue individually if your not sure how to approach them.

Very, Very important...don't put inappropriate guilt on your self about not being able to take him and doing "normal" dog/people activities right now. You talk about a reunion that you were going to take your dog to. Don't. It's NOT punishing him. it is far worse to take him at this point and risk him being overwhelmed, stressed and acting out than it is to either leave him at home for a couple hours or to skip the event all together. To your dog it's not punishment to miss this event. And even more important than your dog not feeling it's punishment is that it's NOT punishment. it's the right choice for him at this stage in his life.

again, do your best to not become overwhelmed, realize your not alone, you can post here for emotional support, training help, to vent etc, etc. it's why this forum is here

[Mattie]

Slowly things are coming out about this lab they were doing inhalation tests on them whether or not these ones had anything done remains a mystery n Heaven only knows what else the next step before they got rescued was electrical testing!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you explain this please Kim? It will help us help you to help him. Hope that makes sense.

[Horace's Mum]

Jacksdad made me think of something else, relating to feeling guilty about not doing stuff. When I got Horus I was determined that he would do lots of activities, never be bored, loads of walks, basically have what I thought was the ideal dog's life. For the first couple of years that is what I did, we went to obedience, agility, clicker workshops, spent hours at home training, hours and hours walking and training, and yes, he did improve a lot (he had to really, he couldn't get much worse!!) But it was always a battle to keep on top of his stress, and I had to use food a lot as a reassurance, I literally didn't dare go anywhere without it "just in case". Even in agility, it was far harder for me to keep him calm around the other dogs (which was one of the main reasons for going there) than it was to do the agility, so he used to get highly rewarded just for being still, but needed constant working to keep him occupied and focussed.

In January this year I had to make the decision to stop agility until I could get his pain under control from his hips. I finished the obedience season but only went every other week because there were a lot of new young dogs coming up that he found hard to cope with. He has had much less attention this year due to me moving house and competing, and not coping so well with walking - he is certainly not neglected but I have asked him to occupy himself much more. I really worried at the beginning of the summer that I was keeping him more and more in a box, not meeting other dogs, not meting many people, not seeing very much of the world. I even posted on here about it.

But you know what? This year has been amazing. I can't remember the last time he felt the need to "shout" at me in the house. He is soooooo chilled out it is just incredible. We do the odd 5 mins of training here and there, and I just ask him to do little things constantly throughout the day in exchange for me playing tug or giving him a chew. We do little bits of agility out on walks. But he has suddenly learned to play fetch, very enthusiastically, running to get his toy and running to bring it straight back to my hand. He has started to play with toys in the house on his own, throwing balls which he would never previously touch around. And he has probably met far more people than he would have done if I had set out to get him meeting people - and I am not worried about him meeting them because I know he is relaxed and will move himself away if he wants to. He doesn't bark nearly as much as he used to. He is just generally soo happy.

So no, he isn't leading the life I expected for him. And he isn't doing things that a lot of pet dogs do, going to fairs and shows and get togethers. But he is happy, he is relaxed, and he doesn't miss it - he doesn't even know they exist. And the odd occasion when I HAVE to take him somewhere stressful he copes with so well, because it has become an interesting change instead of a stressful outing.

So forget the guilt, he doesn't know about the reunion, he won't miss it. Take Justice if you want, Skipper might even enjoy some time alone. If you still feel guilty then spend a few more minutes doing some fun training stuff with him when you get back. But right now he needs to feel safe and secure and know that home is home forever. You have already turned his life around, he is far better off than he ever has been, so let him enjoy that feeling for a long time before making too many demands of him socially

Many of us have been here and learnt the hard way, if you need the reassurance then keep posting and we will keep telling you you are doing good!!

[KimnBoys]

thank you all so much

Jacks Dad, We are def going to do what needs to be done to have him checked by the vet--if nothing from Victorias show n book I have learned that lol be sure they get checked for anything medically....The fan thing we had no idea because when he got here it was still very warm and for those days we just used the AC and had a fan on but not rotating, I never thought that a rotating fan would upset him or I would not have done it at all....I did it again a couple of days later quickly though just to be sure it was not a fluke well have not done it since...............as far as Garbage Bags I wait til daddie takes him out for a walk to change them now same thing with vacumes I do that only when hes out for his one on one walk with dad.....simple things to work on I guess lol ................. as far as it not overwhelming me you are so right easier said than done--I never had that kind of OMG feeling...wondering what happened , what did I do or did not do, what did I miss etc.......and with yesterdays issue I keep going over n over it in my head and have no idea what set it in motion, what I missed......it is so hard NOT to put guilt on myself I feel like it is because of something I am not doing or giving him that he still feels insecure or threatened....inside he is the most loving boy and has been since day one it has just been the past week we have seen this in him.......we were so happy at first because he was so scared of every person etc and then it seemed like he was starting to open up and I dont know if it was trust people or what we told anyone let him come to you, if he walks away well nothn personal just leave him be for awhile and everyone here respected that......We have decided for the best to not chance it with him and not take him to the reunion as sad as that makes me to not have him there to be reunited with his brothers and sisters again I can not and do not want to chance anyone getting hurt, him being over stressed and me being on edge waiting to see what happens....I told Bryan (daddie) when we get back if need be I will take Skipper alone to one of our State parks he likes and he and I can walk the trails that he likes this way he is getting out alone with me too.........

Horace's Mum, Thank you too I do try to keep the boys busy not overly though I try to get them at least 15 minutes in the morning noon and night of different training sessions nothn too stressful just the basics really they get certain toys to play with because I switch them out lol at least once a week we try to get them out for a little family outing to a park for trail walking etc and so they stay used to being in a car which they both love even tho Justice gets car sick if hes in it too long ugh lmao.......I always feel bad if I have to take one out and leave one behind I guess thats just me ---he since being here has not really been in much of a big social gathering so that was another thing that worried me about the reunion, he has been around a few people at a time but nothing like this Justice on the other hand well could care less lol.....one of my friends who also adopted one of the beagles I think hit the nail on the head with all these lil boys n gals--It is like adopting children from a abusive home, the only difference is the child can tell you whats bothering them these guys can't! Oh how I wish they could though.....


Mattie, I do not know what you want to know we really do not know too much about what was going on in that lab---this so far is all we know....................the lab where Justice and Skipper came from had 120 beagles and primates I forget how many, we know that the beagles were constantly being bred, used for testing and then destroyed, we do know that the dogs were used for testing medication effects, inhalation tests of everyday common household products, the hows etc we do not know and the next step was electrical testing how n why we do not know.....................when the data was retrieved that they wanted the animals were destroyed. When the rescue happened it was because of someone who turned them in --the company went bankrupt, the owners locked the doors and left the animals to basically starve to death........when they were rescued it was the first time they had ever seen sunlight, touched grass etc so literally everything was new to them.........we have no full idea what was done to them....they did not even have names they carry tatoos in their ears of numbers because that is what they were in there NUMBERS! Skipper I found even has a tat of a number across his privates why I do not know noone else seems to have one that I know of so far....I do not know if this helps you like I said we do not know much people are still searching for people who worked there that will tell us more.......

[KimnBoys]

our vet called and said he has already had the blood work done he would have done and all his blood work came back normal, he may have just gotten carried away

he said we can muzzle him, try behavioral therapy BUT in his professional opinion he said he went over our contract with PA and says to be honest we should consider returning him, he has seen this before and worries he has crossed a line not that we want to see that nor does he......in the mean time we watch him, walk him away from people etc for awhile,this could be a phase he is going through trying to find his place in the world.............as far as tomorrow goes we need to find out from PA if he gets over stressed if he would have a place to go or just leave him home and not even set him up for failure....................I can not even bare the thought of returning him I know what will happen he will either be a lifer in a shelter or someone will adopt him thinking they can help him something will happen and he will end up put down--I WONT HAVE THAT...I an just soo overwhelmed but I AM going to leave him home tomorrow and treat him to a walk at the park, I do not know anything on muzzles and if that is a good thing or not???? any thoughts?

[Mattie]

I am probably wrong but it is possible that he had shut down because he couldn't cope which is why he seemed good, now he is feeling safer he is coming out of this and showing his fears. You will feel overwhelmed but you can get through this with our help and support. There are lots of natural products that may help him cope, Nettle is the best person to advise on this but I am giving Tilly skullcap and valerian, she went to pieces when Ellie died and it has made a big difference to her, she is a lot more settled now. She has always been funny with men, a strange man was in this morning and she was a lot better, she just shouted at him.

It is best to be safe, if any doubts leave them at home, they will eventually be able to mix if you go at their pace. A good walk before you go will help as well.

That information was a help, it is difficult to imagine what has happened when there is very little information, thanks.

[jacksdad]

IF, your willing to set aside your "feelings" for what you wish he could do, be willing to work with who he is and what he is capable of each day, take the precautions to keep him and others safe, and be very, very patient with him, be willing to put in the time to rehabilitate him and realize this could be a multi year project. might not be, but it could be. Then returning him might be premature.

I say this because we ask a lot of our vets. Sometimes we ask of them things they (on an individual basis) may not be really qualified to give a answer for. I don't know this for sure, but if your vet is typical, he probably doesn't have a lot of behaviorist background/training. Not to say he is completely ignorant of behavior issues. BUT If at all possible do try and find a honest to goodness positive reinforcement based trainer with honest to goodness behaviorist training/background/experience for a second opinion regarding skipper being a "hopeless case" or "having crossed a line". the thing is, in today's world for a variety of reasons we (a general we) are freaking out over barking and biting. while we don't want our dogs to go around barking and biting, we seem to have forgotten not every bark or bit is incurable out of control aggression mean/bad dog behavior. If you work to prevent a situations where your dog feels the need to "attack", and he isn't otherwise damaged beyond repair so to speak, you might have a decent shot at rehabilitating skipper.

One other thing. Not saying you have to or need to do this at this point, re homing. Needs to be on the table. You took on two dogs from this lab if I am following you right. You need to be open to the possibility of finding a new home for one of them that can focus on one of the dogs while you focus on the other might be in the best interest of the dog. May not be what you would like in the ideal, it's a emotionally painful step, but you need to keep it an open option if things become more then you can handle with two dogs. Or the dogs are not integrating in a healthy safe way. again. just something to keep in the back of your mind for now.

Others may disagree and if you do, please speak up.

If the outside world is new to him, you are going to need to take it really slow. keep his perspective in mind. If until rescued all he knew was inside the lab, he is encountering amazing and "scary" new things every time you go out on a walk. In nature fear (running away) or aggressive displays (I am "big" "scary" don't come close or I will hurt you) towards that which is perceived as threats is how you stay alive. so managing his exposure, teaching him that you will deal with things, building his confidence etc is where you most likely need to start. You can then teach new response to new and or scary things.

[Nettle]

Very wise words there.

[KimnBoys]

Jacks Dad--thank you so very much for your words--I know I took on a lot when adding Skipper and maybe because Jman was a little tough but moving along so well--maybe because I felt bad that no one wanted him...and I had a chance to meet him when he had a play date with Justice he was wonderful so maybe I had a soft spot for him I dont know---but honestly I have to say he really is a good boy I just do not know what happened yesterday I keep going over n over it in my head trying to see if maybe he was talking to me n I was not payn attention enough I can not think of anything and its frustrating--I feel like I am letting him down......I spoke with a wonderful woman who told me some things to try and waiting on a call from a behaviorist--I really do not want to give up on him I want to give him a chance My fear is if returned he will be what I call a lifer live forever in a cage and or someone will adopt him and think they can help have something really bad happen and in the end Skipper pay for it with his life.............does this make any sense or am I rambling???

The one thing I have in this world heck I may not have much but I have all the patience, love and time to spare to devote to him and Jman ---if it is something I can do to help him I will do it--its always been in the back of my mind since day one what if it was too much etc would I be able to give them back for re adoption and if it means coming to that because it was the only way he could be helped or it would be beneficial to him I would do it as hard as it would be and heart breaking I would if it meant helping him.......

Now today we had him out for walks and he did see a couple of people he looked and kept on walking like oh well whatever.....and tons of praise followed of course early this am though Bryan took him and I guess someone was leaving for work he saw them and started to bark etc Bryan quickly said Focus, showed a treat made him sit and try to get the treat etc he said before he knew the person was in the car and leaving Skipper watched him the whole time---got the treat and praise.....it is all so baffling to me.


Mattie, You may be right on him shutting down to be honest maybe they did in their own way I know when Justice came he was not the same happy boy he is now he was so afraid to be touched, loved, etc and now goood grief he can not get enough lol he is not the same as when he came.................thank you as well for your words and thoughts..and yes it is difficult when so little info is available it is also frustrating too as a owner because we have no idea what was done to make them fear the things they do etc if that makes sense.

[Mattie]

You are doing well, you have already made a big difference to these 2 dogs, look on this as a hiccup, try to see what went wrong then move on. You are in the same position people are in when they take on a dog from a pound, no history and don't know what to expect from the dog, been there several times The difference is the dogs in a pound may or may not have been abused, your dogs have been in a lab and had horrible things done to them. The way you work through these will be the same, work with the dog at the dogs pace and accept what the dog can offer. Already your dogs are offering you a lot more.

Managing him will help him feel safe, it will help make him feel secure, it will help him know that you are protecting him, many attack managing dogs but it is a very useful tool to use. Management, because it is so consistant and teaches the dog what we want helps dogs a lot more than people realise.

Watch your dogs, learn to read their body language, take you time doing this and enjoy getting to know your dogs, it will be time well spent because you will understand and communicate with them much better. I love to watch my dogs, I can be in the middle of doing something when they start to play so I stop and watch and enjoy them interacting and playing. I also learn a lot about them which helps when I am interacting with them.

You are right to question if you are the right home, it will help you be clearer in what you want and what you can do, we can all do a lot more than we think we can but taking on too much some can cope with and do it, others can't. Only you can say if you are willing to carry on with both dogs or not but you know we will help as much as we can no matter what you decide because it will be in the dog's best interest.

Open a bottle of wine and box of chocolates, relax so you can move forward

[Nettle]

Also consider the abuse they have had is not purely visual -

People smell a certain way. Maybe this person smelled that way. Maybe she was on medication or had used a household product tested on this dog. Beagles have an amazing sense of smell even among dogs - they are after all a hound bred to follow scent for many miles and all day.

People sound a certain way. Maybe her voice or her phrases/intonations were similar to that/those of one of the lab staff about whom memories are painful.

For sure there was some association your dog made with fear and/or pain. You may never know the trigger, and in any case with multiple abuse there will be multiple triggers. So far, anything strange (smelling, sounding etc) may have been followed by pain or fear. Your dog was driving away the person because he was frightened.

It is likely that he will always be fearful and mistrustful of strangers. It is up to you to accept this and make it obvious to him that no-one is going to hurt him when he is with you, and this means YOU have to be on red-alert all the time he is out to make sure he can't reach people and they can't reach him.

It's a tough call and will need total commitment, but I reckon you have that