PETCO - Puppy playtime and socialization questions

[leslie123]

I found out yesterday that our local Petco does a free puppy playtime once a month. I talked to their trainer yesterday about it and I'm thinking of taking Sulley to it. I have no idea how many pups will be there, but she did say that most are under 6 mos. She mentioned one dog is about 10 mos but she likes him to be there because he's shown to be very good with the young ones on being gentle when needed or correcting when their behavior is too rough. She said she does ask the owner to stay outside the play area along the barrier. Everyone has to bring vaccination records as well. What do you think? Has anyone done anything like this? I'd love to get some thoughts/opinions/suggestions.

[dontpugme]

I've never gone to a puppy class, so I'm just giving my two cents. I just listened to a podcast by Dr Ian Dunbar called Puppy Class problems.I can't find a link to it, but it's free on iTunes and I think it's on the dog star daily site. It was a really good podcast.

[Nettle]

I think you should go and see without your puppy.

See if pups are allowed to bully other pups. See if 'fraidy pups are allowed to come out and watch with their owners. See if big pups and small pups roughhouse together (helluva difference between 12 weeks and 6 months).

I am not happy at the owners not being allowed in with their pups. If pup gets scared, how can it feel safe again without owner to hide with?

Do you know how big the play area is?

"No time lost that is spent in reconnaissance"

Have a look and tell us what you saw.

[Simba]

I have done this at a Petco near me and it was good one time. The floors were slippery so the dogs were sliding around and the space is very small and with too many pups not too good. We found a local dog park and that helped socialize our pup faster than anything else. Plus, it is outdoors, lots of grass and you can take your pup there whenever you want. Most dog parks have a small and large dog area that is seperated by a fence. The small dogs and puppies do great together and your pup will learn better manners from other dogs in this way. So, yes Petco was fine for one time until we discovered the dog park.

[leslie123]

Thanks for the replies! I think I will go have a look first, just to get an idea. Of course it could be different numbers every time but at least I can get an idea. When I was talking with the trainer she also suggested that sometimes Lowes will let you bring your dog in to walk around. Would be a fun socializing experience for Sulley without other dogs of course, but still could be interesting. I do plan on taking Sulley over to a friends house to meet her chocolate lab. He's used to meeting other dogs and has proven to do well and she has a large fenced area for them to play and where we can work them a bit too, as long as all goes well. My purpose in this is not really to make sure Sulley has "doggy friends" I'm not against that, but both breeds he comes from have a tendency towards being protective and guarding and I want to foster that trait without having him want to guard against every single dog or person he sees. I'm hoping to teach him how to know the difference between friends and those that aren't welcome. By learning how we act to those we are friends with in these social situations, will he get to know the difference when someone we aren't friends with comes along? Or am I totally off on this?

[Nettle]

Mmmm careful with that one.

Dogs guard because they are scared. We think they are guarding US but they are guarding themselves. Very territorial dogs are guarding their territory because territory=survival. Dogs have no concept of guarding a THING, they are guarding their own safety. Guarding breeds are created by breeding from stock that exaggerates that concept. Guarding instinct can easily go wrong.

IMO a pet dog should be a pet dog and a guard dog should be a guard dog, for safety's sake.

[leslie123]

Mmmm careful with that one.

Dogs guard because they are scared. We think they are guarding US but they are guarding themselves. Very territorial dogs are guarding their territory because territory=survival. Dogs have no concept of guarding a THING, they are guarding their own safety. Guarding breeds are created by breeding from stock that exaggerates that concept. Guarding instinct can easily go wrong.

IMO a pet dog should be a pet dog and a guard dog should be a guard dog, for safety's sake.

Obviously the last thing we want is for any guarding instinct he has to go wrong. I've tried to read up on both breeds he comes from (Great Pyr and White Shepard Dog) just to understand what traits he may naturally have. Much of the information mentions how both breeds are loyal, protective and with a Pyr, a strong desire to guard, though from what I understand they are meant to guard livestock, not homes and people. I'm not sure how all of this will show itself in Sulley yet. He is indeed a pet dog, so now this discussion has me wondering, at what age might his breed traits begin to show up? I'd also like to be able to deal with them in the safest way possible, but I guess I need to wait and see what develops first. When I talk about wanting to foster his protective trait, I mean that if God forbid the situation arose where an unwelcome individual was on our property, I wouldn't be adverse to Sulley warding them off with a nice deep protective bark.

[emmabeth]

I would not encourage ANY guarding behaviour as the chances that it will go wrong and you will end up with a dog who will not let ANY stranger across your doorstep, or will 'guard' you/himself from people in the street is VERY high.

IF you have a big dog who woofs when he hears strange noises (and most do!) that should be sufficient to put off would-be burglars.... to be honest, if it DOESNT, him being willing to back that up by biting is liable merely to sign his own death warrant as criminals willing to take on a big dog are willing to kill it and a dead dog is of no protection to you at all.

Take advantage of his sheer size, teach him to bark on a quiet spoken command or on a hand signal, by all means but actively encouraging him to guard you or your property beyond this is putting him at risk and not signficantly increasing your safety. Professional criminals just put down poison for dogs and come back once they are dead. (Or as some people have found, come armed and kill the dog first). Opportunistic chancers will be put off by the dogs size regardless of whether he is willing to bite them or just lick them.

[leslie123]

Maybe I'm not being very clear, but we have no intention of training Sulley to guard. As I stated, I understand that the breeds he comes from have a propensity towards that. I've learned about his breed backgrounds so that we are prepared to understand his temperament and use that knowledge when training and of course in daily interaction. What I want is no different than any loving dog owner, a safe balanced temperament. A friendly, secure dog that isn't territorial or guarding out of fear. So, is it even valid to say that some breeds lean towards being protective and guarding or does the training have a much bigger impact than heredity?

[Nettle]

It's a case of if you flip the switch the dog will turn on to bred-in behaviour, but if the switch isn't turned on, chances are the behaviour will not appear to any major degree.

Two years old (give or take) is about the time bred-in behaviour appears, but foundations for good or bad are laid much earlier.

You sound as if you are doing a great job, and what needs your concentration now is socialising him every way you can but in such a way that he is never afraid WOW how easy to type: how hard to do. Your message is: you don't need to guard because I will keep you safe.

[leslie123]

It's a case of if you flip the switch the dog will turn on to bred-in behaviour, but if the switch isn't turned on, chances are the behaviour will not appear to any major degree.

Two years old (give or take) is about the time bred-in behaviour appears, but foundations for good or bad are laid much earlier.

You sound as if you are doing a great job, and what needs your concentration now is socialising him every way you can but in such a way that he is never afraid WOW how easy to type: how hard to do. Your message is: you don't need to guard because I will keep you safe.

Ahhh.. Thank you so much, that clicks! If we give him as many good experiences now as possible, make sure he knows that we are in control of, the front door, which dog and people greet him on the street or when we're out etc, he will (hopefully) not feel the need later on to be in charge of security especially if those traits should pop up in a stronger way. Which brings me full circle back to the puppy playtime. If its not too large a group and seems to be run well, it sounds like it would be a great experience for him. As you mentioned I was a little concerned about owners staying outside the play area, but I will see how that works in person.

And just cause its been a month, I thought I'd show y'all how much he's grown!

[Simba]

As I mentioned before the area that Petco sets up for the puppy playtime is very very small and it does not matter how many dogs there are - it is too small for a play area plus slippery (i.e. not good for their hips) as well. I believe this "free" puppy playtime was designed for you to meet the potential trainers (i.e. it is merely a marketing technique) that you will hire to train your dog and not for you and your puppy to experience a true socialization time.

We took our puppy to the local dog park (the small area) and he learned to play with all types of dogs, all sizes of dogs, all ages of dogs which I believe is a much better situation for your most beautiful puppy. Plus, you potentially can meet a lot of proactive people who are putting the time in to exercise and train their dogs and many will be Victoria Stilwell people and you can learn a lot of positive things from them.

At Petco you will be standing around watching a few dogs play in a small confined area and while this is surely entertaining (if you ever saw Animal Planet's Puppy Bowl you will know what I mean) you will not be learning how to work with your dog and you will be quite passive during the experience along with the other people standing around watching.

Go once if you must; however, I encourage to check out local dog parks. We have been going to ours for over a year now and are delighted by our experiences (and yes, once in a while there is a situation in the park - mostly the owners energy rather than the dogs). Still, we go almost every day on the weekends, twice a day sometimes. He loves going there and we enjoy it too. Also, dog parks do not take the place of walking your dog; nonetheless, it is fun for them a valuable in many ways. You may need to check a few out in your area before you decide on the best one. They differ greatly in terms of cleanliness, the type of people/dogs that they attract and facilities.

OK, that's my two cents....Once again, gorgeous puppy....

[leslie123]

As I mentioned before the area that Petco sets up for the puppy playtime is very very small and it does not matter how many dogs there are - it is too small for a play area plus slippery (i.e. not good for their hips) as well. I believe this "free" puppy playtime was designed for you to meet the potential trainers (i.e. it is merely a marketing technique) that you will hire to train your dog and not for you and your puppy to experience a true socialization time.

We took our puppy to the local dog park (the small area) and he learned to play with all types of dogs, all sizes of dogs, all ages of dogs which I believe is a much better situation for your most beautiful puppy. Plus, you potentially can meet a lot of proactive people who are putting the time in to exercise and train their dogs and many will be Victoria Stilwell people and you can learn a lot of positive things from them.

At Petco you will be standing around watching a few dogs play in a small confined area and while this is surely entertaining (if you ever saw Animal Planet's Puppy Bowl you will know what I mean) you will not be learning how to work with your dog and you will be quite passive during the experience along with the other people standing around watching.

Go once if you must; however, I encourage to check out local dog parks. We have been going to ours for over a year now and are delighted by our experiences (and yes, once in a while there is a situation in the park - mostly the owners energy rather than the dogs). Still, we go almost every day on the weekends, twice a day sometimes. He loves going there and we enjoy it too. Also, dog parks do not take the place of walking your dog; nonetheless, it is fun for them a valuable in many ways. You may need to check a few out in your area before you decide on the best one. They differ greatly in terms of cleanliness, the type of people/dogs that they attract and facilities.

OK, that's my two cents....Once again, gorgeous puppy....

Aww, thank you for the kind words about Sulley. I would love to try out a dog park, if only we had one in my area, but sadly we don't. Emmabeth had suggested to me in another thread that I do some "play dates" with some neighborhood or friends dogs, and I will be doing that for sure. This way we can break up the play a bit and possibly work the dogs a bit. So far there's only one neighbor who we've had a succesful greet with. One other neighbor stopped by when we were in the yard but her dog tried to bite Sulley He didn't get hurt but I was a bit annoyed that she didn't leave our yard right away and I ended up taking Sulley in. I just didn't want to take a chance on him getting hurt. Afterwards I got to thinking and realized that given the same situation again, I would ask her politely to leave, since it is Sulley's yard, but live and learn I guess. Obviously the first thing on my mind was keeping Sulley from getting hurt. Thanks so much for the insight on Petco. Its pretty questionable how enriching that would be for him. I may stop by without him just to see how it is, but I'm guessing its probably similar to your experience since its not that large of a store and they don't really have any very large open areas. I'm also not interested in doing it as a means to check out the puppy class since I'm already doing everything they would cover in that. (and then some)

[Simba]

Sounds like a good plan. It is good that you are committed to keeping Sulley safe since that is a most important thing. People come from forty-five minutes away just to be in our dog park (obviously, these people do not come every day; nonetheless, we see them there a few times a week at least). You might have one closer than you think. You might call the county (parks and rec dept.) you live in and inquire. You might try Craig's List to find other people who would like to bring their dogs over for a play date. If you have a large enough fenced in yard perhaps a number of people might participate especially if it turns out there is no dog park in your county. Good luck. When we fence in our yard we will definitely be inviting over for play dates a number of his buddies from the dog park who live near by.