Puppy terrified of another dog in class

[VSfan]

We recently started our 11 week old puppy in a puppy class at one of the busy pet stores in our area. Our vet said it was important to socialize early, so even though I still have concerns about Parvo, etc., we agreed. We've only had one class and the other puppy was about 4 months older than ours. This puppy will not be in our regular class. When we first got there, and somewhat throughout the class, the other dog (a female) was barking and sounding a little scary, actually. According to her owners, she is "rough" and they were worried about the interaction with our puppy. When the puppies were supposed to meet, our puppy yelped like he was hurt. He hid most of the class. At the end of class they were given time to "play". We dropped the leashes and my puppy immediately started looking for help from the adults in the room. (We weren't allowed to do anything, of course.) When the other dog approached him, he finally flattened himself up against a wall with his little nose in the corner, trembling, and otherwise didn't move a muscle as this other dog sniffed and licked him all over (for quite awhile) until they were separated. If he could have disappeared, he would have. We weren't really allowed to do anything to comfort our puppy, as the trainer said this would make them think they were right to be scared. Was this normal behavior for a first time meeting? Is there something I can do to help when he reacts like this? I am thinking inviting a smaller dog to our house for a visit, might be a good idea. I know socialization is extremely important. I just don't want all his first experiences to be bad ones, as I'm afraid it could ruin other dogs for him forever. Starting the next class period, he will be with a smaller dog. Hopefully, he doesn't react the same way.

He was with his littermates and other dogs until he was 7 1/2 weeks old. It seems he got picked on a good bit. This was the first time he has interacted with another dog since we got him.

Thanks for your help!!

[Sarah83]

Oh poor puppy! He should never have been put in that situation and I'd be looking for different trainers if that's the sort of thing they're going to allow to happen to him. It's no wonder there are so many dogs with problems if this is the sort of socialization that's offered at classes! Sorry, that's a rant at the trainers, not at you.

I'm no expert on how to socialise pups, mine were just off leash with other friendly dogs on the field and both grew up to be good with other dogs. The dog I have now was already frightened of other dogs when I got him and has now decided, after meeting several less than friendly dogs, that the best form of defense is to bite them before they bite him. I'm sure you'll get plenty of good advice on here though if you stick around.

[Zeldacorgi]

First thing you need to do: Get out of that class and away from that trainer because they don't know what they're doing. What your puppy most certainly doesn't need is to be forced to deal with dogs like that if it's uncomfortable. I just went through this with my dog who was terrified of bigger dogs. Under the right trainer, we were able to get her to a point where she was ok in the presence of big dogs. Picking up your puppy will not reinforce that it's behaving correctly. Rather it gives the puppy and mental and emotional break from what it's dealing with. And as long as your puppy is uncomfortable and in a confined space with a dog that is putting too much pressure on it, puppy needs to be in your arms. What you don't want to do while your holding them is stroke them and tell them it'll be ok, etc. THAT'S where the reinforcement lies. When you hold them, you don't say anything, you stay calm. That's what puppy will pick up on.

While on a vaccination schedule you are absolutely right to be concerned about puppy contracting diseases. So in this pet store that also offers classes, do they also have a vet office in the back? Not to knock Petsmart or stores like it, but I believe most if not all have a vet office in the back, which can mean that SICK dogs have to travel down the entire length of the store to get there. So right there ups your chance of running into a dog who is not well.

Socialization is very important, but you want all those encounters to be as kind and considerate as possible. I would start looking for a trainer in your area who practices positive reinforcement (and be thorough, because there are those that claim to be +R without completely understanding what it means) and possibly specializes in puppy training. When you go to check out the facilities that your classes will be held in (and this needs to happen), you want to make sure they are clean, there is PLENTY of room for the puppies to play, and maybe a couple of objects for a small puppy to hide in. Some puppies are more timid that others, and having an escape route makes things much easier for them. This trainer should have no problem allowing you to come observe a class so you can see what it's all about. They should have no problem answering any questions you may have, and you'll definitely want to bring up this issue and ask what they would do about it.

I offer this advice based solely on my experience here. Others may have different advice or more to add. I hope you find something helpful here.

[emmabeth]

OMG No! BAD trainer BAD puppy class...

Dont go back there, your trainer is talking utter rubbish and is setting pups up for bad experiences!

Socialise your pup yourself with nice calm adult dogs, one at a time in non-scary environments. Pair the sight of dogs in the distance with rewards, make greetings brief and at this age your pup can be on your lap if needs be.

You must stay calm and not react in a really OTT 'omg nooooooo big dog scary arrrrgh' way, because whislt it doesnt reward the puppy for being scared it does back up the 'im scared, MOM is scared... omg this must be scary' feeling.

Instead stay calm, happy, offer tastey treats (meat paste from a jar or cheese spread from a tube is great!) do plenty of approach and retreat and make sure thea dult dog you work with will come away when the owner asks them to so you dont overwhelm the pup.

[Sabrina]

I'm sorry your puppy had such a scary experience! I recently dropped out of a group class - I had thought more exposure to other dogs would help my dog gain confidence, but the class setting was all wrong for him and he was scared and stressed out. Emmabeth's advice is very sound - speaking from experience, the more my dog knows he won't be forced into scary encounters, the calmer he gets. Just wanted to encourage you that you can do a lot better for your puppy by working on socialization in safe, low-stress situations - there's plenty of help on this forum for doing just that!

[VSfan]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your replies!! I didn't think I was wrong in my concerns, but I wasn't sure. I have already paid for the class and the next class is supposed to be with a tiny little puppy so I guess I will give it one more try. If he reacts in a similar fashion with this puppy, and the trainer doesn't allow me to do something to put him at ease, I won't be returning.

The store DOES have a vet's office in the back and I AM concerned about being forced to make him walk around there. The trainer said it was important that he be walked around in the store, because of his fear, even though I expressed my concerns. I don't even walk him in our front yard close to the street yet, because other dogs sometimes walk up onto our grass. I am trying to be really careful (or was before I had to walk him in the store), because I really don't want to take any chances with him. At the class, I was told that since he's had 3 shots (at 5 and 7 weeks before I got him) and then at 10 weeks with me, that he would be fine. I am going to call my vet tomorrow and ask them if they think it is ok to be walking all around the store. I'm just so paranoid about parvo, etc.

Thanks again for all your support. I'll let you know how he does tomorrow. I really want this to work out, because it is obvious he needs to be socialized to other dogs soon.

[Zeldacorgi]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your replies!! I didn't think I was wrong in my concerns, but I wasn't sure. I have already paid for the class and the next class is supposed to be with a tiny little puppy so I guess I will give it one more try. If he reacts in a similar fashion with this puppy, and the trainer doesn't allow me to do something to put him at ease, I won't be returning.

The store DOES have a vet's office in the back and I AM concerned about being forced to make him walk around there. The trainer said it was important that he be walked around in the store, because of his fear, even though I expressed my concerns. I don't even walk him in our front yard close to the street yet, because other dogs sometimes walk up onto our grass. I am trying to be really careful (or was before I had to walk him in the store), because I really don't want to take any chances with him. At the class, I was told that since he's had 3 shots (at 5 and 7 weeks before I got him) and then at 10 weeks with me, that he would be fine. I am going to call my vet tomorrow and ask them if they think it is ok to be walking all around the store. I'm just so paranoid about parvo, etc.

The only way you wouldn't be allowed to do something for your puppy is if the trainer physically restrained you. If your puppy is scared, pick it up. If you're concerned about taking your puppy near the vet, don't do it. That trainer can't make you do anything.

[jacksdad]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your replies!! I didn't think I was wrong in my concerns, but I wasn't sure. I have already paid for the class and the next class is supposed to be with a tiny little puppy so I guess I will give it one more try. If he reacts in a similar fashion with this puppy, and the trainer doesn't allow me to do something to put him at ease, I won't be returning.

The store DOES have a vet's office in the back and I AM concerned about being forced to make him walk around there. The trainer said it was important that he be walked around in the store, because of his fear, even though I expressed my concerns. I don't even walk him in our front yard close to the street yet, because other dogs sometimes walk up onto our grass. I am trying to be really careful (or was before I had to walk him in the store), because I really don't want to take any chances with him. At the class, I was told that since he's had 3 shots (at 5 and 7 weeks before I got him) and then at 10 weeks with me, that he would be fine. I am going to call my vet tomorrow and ask them if they think it is ok to be walking all around the store. I'm just so paranoid about parvo, etc.

Thanks again for all your support. I'll let you know how he does tomorrow. I really want this to work out, because it is obvious he needs to be socialized to other dogs soon.

more you post about the trainer, the less I think you should be there with this trainer and in this environment. and your last sentence concerns me too. I apologize in advance if I am miss reading you but...."I really want this to work out"... makes me feel your too focused on this particular method of socialization for your puppy, rather then finding what might be a better way for your particular dog. you clearly want what is best for your puppy, so please don't get tunnel vision with this pet store training route. there is always another way.

If your puppy is showing signs of being fearful I have no doubt the puppy experts here can help you figure out a gentler, less stressful way for your puppy to be "socialized" to both other dogs and humans.

[VSfan]

Thank you both for your replies. I agree, I am not going to let someone make me do something I don't feel good about....not anymore, anyway. If he gets upset again today, I am going to put my foot down and sit him on my lap. If the trainer doesn't like it, I will not be returning to the class. I don't really have tunnel vision, I am already looking for other options. I just thought I would have more access to other puppies in an class-like environment. This may not be the right thing for my puppy.

Thank you all so much for your support and insight.

Edited: Just talked to my vet's office and they actually normally give 4 sets of shots. He will be getting 5 sets, I guess because his first one was at only 5 weeks. They said, just to be safe, I should probably wait until after the next set of shots (in 11 days) to allow him to walk around the store. This will also give me a chance to ask the vet about it myself.

[jacksdad]

cool.

And don't let the "trainer" title "intimidate" you. many trainers are very, very good a teaching basic skills such as sit, stay, down etc. But I am learning that trainers who really understand dog behavior and dog development are far, far, far fewer. IF something doesn't feel right, error on the side of caution, get a second opinion. follow your instincts.

Also, give some thought to the suggestion about socializing with a calm, mature, well adjusted adult dog. assuming you know such a dog.

While playing with puppies does have some benefit, think lord of the fly's, puppies can't teach other puppies how to be well behaved adult dogs.

[VSfan]

Thanks, jacksdad!

I am definitely considering socializing him with adult dogs. I just don't really know anyone that has an adult dog that isn't large. I thought maybe it would help him to start with a dog smaller than he is. A couple of my neighbors have dogs that have attacked other dogs or bitten joggers. I don't want him meeting them yet. I don't know if he will be safe with them. He will eventually have to meet at least one of them, as their property connects to ours, but I am putting it off. I tried to get someone I know with a maltese that is about a year old to come for a visit, but I'm not sure if they are comfortable with that. She said maybe they could meet in our yard some time.

Thanks again!!

[jacksdad]

A couple of my neighbors have dogs that have attacked other dogs or bitten joggers. I don't want him meeting them yet. I don't know if he will be safe with them. He will eventually have to meet at least one of them, as their property connects to ours, but I am putting it off.

If the dogs are unpredictable nothing says your dog EVER has to literally meet these dogs. I am sure I will be corrected if I am off here, but socialization doesn't always have to mean a literal lets sniff butts of every dog we you run into. it can also just be observing from a distance. I have dogs in my neighborhood that my dog can't handle being near. There are other dogs that can't handle being round another dog. So, we avoid them. If we run into these dogs and my dog stays calm, I reward him (he is reactive to other dogs) for staying calm, but regardless of what he does, we move on and I move to be between him and the other dog. since you don't want to have to live that world, be very, very protective of your dog. in this case protective means have some idea of the environment your considering putting your dog into before you put your dog into it.

I tried to get someone I know with a maltese that is about a year old to come for a visit, but I'm not sure if they are comfortable with that. She said maybe they could meet in our yard some time. Thanks again!!

if you do chose to seek out an adult dog, ask lots of questions, how is it with other dogs, puppies etc. ask to observe the dog if possible first. while the adult may not harm your puppy, it may still not be the right dog it it's uncomfortable with puppies. which is possible. oh and a lot of dogs aren't really an adult until about 2 years old. If you don't know what questions to ask, come back here and ask for advice. There are people here with lots of puppy experience who can help.

[VSfan]

Maybe you are right about them not having to actually "meet". Hopefully, they can just co-exist in the neighborhood if it comes to that--even though we are friends with the owners and our son likes to visit over there.

We did meet the tiny maltese at the bus stop. I held my puppy and she held hers. We let them sniff each other, but again, my puppy was getting scared. I praised him when he was quiet and near the other dog, and gave him a couple treats. He was trying to get down to get away so we backed up and just took it slow. I tried petting the other dog to show him that it was ok. This other puppy/dog is so tiny and seems very sweet. He just barely sniffed at my puppy's face when we would come near enough. Apparently, the size of the dog doesn't matter. We'll see what happens tonight, but I have a feeling he is not going to warm up to another dog for awhile. It is going to be very slow-going and take a lot of work. I'll keep looking for an adult dog that I can trust with my little one.

Thanks again for all your help!!

[Nettle]

Next time let them meet on the ground.

It is very scary for a dog to be held, and he was probably more frightened of that than he was of the other dog. If he figures other dog=I get imprisoned and can't run away, he will become more fearful.

It is natural for us to hold and hug and pet, but it isn't natural for dogs - dogs only hold other dogs when they are about to do them harm - so we have to adapt to their thinking because thinking is what we are better at than they are.

[VSfan]

Nettle,

Thanks! I would much rather have had him on the ground, but we were parked on the street (and he hasn't had all his shots yet). This was the only way I could think of to do it.

I took him to the class last night with the other smaller puppy. The other puppy was definitely energetic (really cute, too). He did bark at my puppy at times. The barking, itself, didn't seem to bother my puppy, but he still had issues with the other puppy coming too close. The trainer did try to work with us a lot more this time. We let the dogs meet on the ground outside the classroom while we were waiting, but my puppy was still scared. We tried slowly allowing them to get closer and closer, giving lots of praise and some treats, etc. He had no problem getting close to the other puppy when food was offered--he'd get right up in his face, actually. (He'll do almost ANYTHING for food.) So I don't know that he was truly terrified of the dog. However, when it was time to drop their leashes he kept moving away and when the tiny puppy would jump on him he would freeze. He won't look at the puppy when this is happening. He is being very submissive, but didn't seem to be trembling this time. He did yelp when he was nipped once or twice. After they had been moving around the room, but separated when the trainer thought it was needed, at one point the other puppy was just completely laying all over him. At this point, our puppy decided enough was enough and turned his head around and barked once at him baring his teeth a little. My knee-jerk reaction was to tell him "no", but the trainer said to let him have his say. That it is ok if he does this. The puppy was back at him after a few seconds, and our puppy was timid again. I hope his reaction was not aggression (because of his fear) and was just him telling the other puppy to stop it!!

So, overall, I guess it didn't seem as traumatic for him as the first encounter with the larger, older puppy, but he is still very fearful and timid. He has no interest in playing with another puppy and doesn't want them too close to him. I don't know if this is just a normal, timid puppy or something more. The trainer assures us that he is not getting into a fear state and that this will not scar him for life or anything. She thinks it would be good for him to continue in this class with this one puppy. I am researching trainers in my area that might be able to work with him if he continues having issues with this. Do you think this could just be normal and that some puppies react this way at first, or is it more likely he has some serious issues we need to deal with right away?

Thanks!