Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

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Sue1234
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:10 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by Sue1234 »

I would love some feedback on teaching my dog not to bark/lunge at other dogs while on our walks. Here's my situation:
Layla is a spayed, 80 pound, 14 month old Golden Retriever mix that we rescued about 5 weeks ago. She is sweet, smart, very quiet, low key and gentle. For walks, I use a Sporn harness and have her walking pretty consistently on a loose leash - as long as there are no dogs around. She will walk fine past kids, bikes, cars, skateboarders, etc. But another dog? That turns her into another dog altogether. She lunges, barks and whimpers to try and get to them. I don't believe it's aggression, though she will occasionally growl if she gets very worked up. But we had a relatively calm Jack Russell stay with us for two days last week. We had the JR in the backyard and Layla in the house. They "met" through the patio door and at first Layla reacted to her much as she does to other dogs while out walking. Within five minutes she calmed down and we allowed the two together in the backyard with leashes on. That went very well so we set them loose (my yard is fenced) and they were fine with each other, playing and running together like old buddies within minutes!

Now I know that a tried and true training method for dogs like Layla is to divert their attention onto you before they become upset by the sight of another dog while out on walks. My problem here is that Layla is not the tiniest bit food or toy driven, and I have tried chicken, hot dogs, bacon treats and Natural Balance dog food rolls to really tempt her. She just has very little interest in food. So without that diversion to help her concentrate on me and not on another dog, and because of her positive experience with the JR, I was thinking that maybe I should try letting her follow a calm dog at a distance that is comfortable for her until she comes to realize the other dog poses no threat. (If it was a reactive dog, I could always turn her around so she doesn't get more anxious.) If I do this repeatedly, do you think this will help her to calm down around other dogs? I have no need for her to approach another dog or become friends with them, I just want her to be able to walk without reacting to them as we pass them by.

One downside I can see to this method is that my LLW will go out the window while following the dog until she calms down. But I really don't know what else to do at this point. So any and all advice will be very much appreciated! :)
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by jacksdad »

when in a low distraction place such as your living room or back yard, is she still refusing food when doing any training?

lets assume for a moment she is food driven or at least interested in food, there are a couple reasons for "refusing" or being "not interested" in food/treats even for food motivated dogs. First is, you may not be using a high enough value treat. if dogs make her anxious/excited when another dog is around, then say using just regular kibble isn't going to work. But a juice piece of meat might.

The other possible reason is your too close to the dogs when you try and distract her from the other dogs. The higher the stress/anxiety/arousal, the less likely your dog will be interested in food. My dog is FOOD driven. I can feed him a full meal, and still grab his attention with some high value treats for doing some training right after. BUT if he is reacting to a dog, he will refuse even the best treats.

you may need to do some experimenting at home with different food rewards to see if/what grabs your dog's attention. Any dog safe food will work, but realize the higher the distraction the more yummy the treat has to be. I can share what I use with my dog, but it may not work with yours because each dog is a little different in what they like. commonly successful treats tend to be very tasty, smelly, and meat. Things like hot dogs, chicken, some cheeses generally have success rates. some dogs like to lick and so meat flavored baby food in a jar, or cheese you can squeeze out of a tube for example maybe worth trying out.

I use primarily natural balance food rolls chopped into small chunks (turkey or lamb and rice tend to be winners with my dog) for my out doors high value treat. they have meat, are smelly, tasty and easy to dispense to my dog. I use plain chicken breast cooked for indoors and I have also used hotdogs. these get his attention very nicely, but can be hard to get out of the treat pouch.

If your dog is in fact NOT interested in food is there a favorite toy or game you could play to distract her? this also works.

5 weeks is not that long to be with you, so she could also just not be very comfortable with you yet. over the next few weeks/months she will come out of her shell more and more and you may find she will work for food or find some other thing she is really excited/crazy about that you can use for a reward. Food isn't the only reward possible for dogs, it is just the easiest and most common reward most dogs will work for.

But dogs pick their reward and while food is a very common reward, it isn't the only one possible, you just may need to get to know your dog more to find out what she will work for.

as far as "not being aggression", until you know her better, I would go with the assumption she is fear aggressive. it's safer for you this way. doesn't mean you have a across the board aggressive dog. it just means there is something out there specifically she has a hard time dealing with. when dogs are scared their to default options are fight or flight. when on leash, there is only one option fight. But the growling and barking could be attempts to warn dogs not to come closer. if the barks and growls are not listened to, then it's fight/bite escalation time. And this is why I am suggesting you assume it's fear aggression for now. by making that assumption you will be less caught of guard and will be taking pro active steps to minimize contact with other dogs for awhile. over time as she settles in with you, you may find that she isn't fear aggressive, but the commonly recommend methods for dealing with this that is offered here won't do any harm if she isn't fear aggressive. the worst case is some easily earned treats and a dog who has a stellar U Turn and watch me.

It could also be that she isn't used to not being able to go up to other dogs at will. But going up to strange dogs carries it's own risk and is often considered rude by other dogs and their humans. The same steps to address this situation are the same basic ones you use to address fear aggression. over time left un addressed this to can lead to aggressive behavior towards dogs out of not fear but frustration.
Sue1234
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:10 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by Sue1234 »

Thanks for your reply Jacksdad.
jacksdad wrote:when in a low distraction place such as your living room or back yard, is she still refusing food when doing any training?
The thing about treats with Layla is that they have very little value to her. She will take them, but with little enthusiasm. And after just 3 or 4 treats, she completely loses interest and will wander away if I let her. It's the same whether we are inside with no distractions or outside. I'm also very careful to train before a meal while she's hungry, but with no great results.
jacksdad wrote:lets assume for a moment she is food driven or at least interested in food, there are a couple reasons for "refusing" or being "not interested" in food/treats even for food motivated dogs. First is, you may not be using a high enough value treat. if dogs make her anxious/excited when another dog is around, then say using just regular kibble isn't going to work. But a juice piece of meat might.

Things like hot dogs, chicken, some cheeses generally have success rates. some dogs like to lick and so meat flavored baby food in a jar, or cheese you can squeeze out of a tube for example maybe worth trying out.

I use primarily natural balance food rolls chopped into small chunks (turkey or lamb and rice tend to be winners with my dog) for my out doors high value treat. they have meat, are smelly, tasty and easy to dispense to my dog. I use plain chicken breast cooked for indoors and I have also used hotdogs. these get his attention very nicely, but can be hard to get out of the treat pouch.
I have tried all of the above - Natural Balance beef roll, warm chicken, warm hot dog - and she does take them, but not with any great enthusiasm and with each, she loses interest all together after about 3 or 4 small treats. I do plan to buy a few jars of baby food and give that a whirl. I'm hopeful that the licking action trying to get it out of the jar will be a distraction in itself even if the reward of the meat turns out not to be.
jacksdad wrote:The other possible reason is your too close to the dogs when you try and distract her from the other dogs. The higher the stress/anxiety/arousal, the less likely your dog will be interested in food. My dog is FOOD driven. I can feed him a full meal, and still grab his attention with some high value treats for doing some training right after. BUT if he is reacting to a dog, he will refuse even the best treats.
Sometimes we do get surprised by another dog while out on our walks. I keep an eagle eye out, but in our neighborhood, you never know when someone will come out their front door with their dog just as you're walking by or we'll turn a corner and bam, there's another dog coming at you. I know at times like those I'll never get her attention on me and we turn and walk the other way. But when I do see the other dog first and it's far enough away, I have her sit, get her attention on me and calmly attempt to keep it there. I put the treat in front of her and she has only mild interest in it even though she hasn't even seen the other dog yet and is showing no signs of stress. It's not nearly enticing enough to hold her attention once she sees the other dog, even from a distance.
jacksdad wrote:5 weeks is not that long to be with you, so she could also just not be very comfortable with you yet. over the next few weeks/months she will come out of her shell more and more and you may find she will work for food or find some other thing she is really excited/crazy about that you can use for a reward. Food isn't the only reward possible for dogs, it is just the easiest and most common reward most dogs will work for.

But dogs pick their reward and while food is a very common reward, it isn't the only one possible, you just may need to get to know your dog more to find out what she will work for.
You're right that five weeks is not that long and I have seen her settle in more and more as time goes on, though she is a very laid back dog in general. (She has no reaction when the doorbell rings except to wag her tail, loves when people come to the house, adores kids and is generally a couch potato! :) ) But the food thing has never changed. She is just the same with it today as she was the first day she got here. To add to my training dilemma, she is also not toy driven. Right from the start she has played mostly by herself. If we try to join in she will almost always stop playing, drop whatever she has (not with fear or distress, just happily drop it) and romp around us. If we try to throw a toy or ball, she watches it sail away, then turns back to us, tail wagging, and again romps around us. Rarely does she run after the ball or toy. BUT . . . she does love to chase the squirrels and bunnies in our backyard, so after reading a suggestion on another thread, I have thought about getting a piece of fur and see if that will hold her interest. At this point, I'm willing to try anything! (Well, almost anything! :D )
jacksdad wrote:far as "not being aggression", until you know her better, I would go with the assumption she is fear aggressive. it's safer for you this way. doesn't mean you have a across the board aggressive dog. it just means there is something out there specifically she has a hard time dealing with. when dogs are scared their to default options are fight or flight. when on leash, there is only one option fight. But the growling and barking could be attempts to warn dogs not to come closer. if the barks and growls are not listened to, then it's fight/bite escalation time. And this is why I am suggesting you assume it's fear aggression for now. by making that assumption you will be less caught of guard and will be taking pro active steps to minimize contact with other dogs for awhile. over time as she settles in with you, you may find that she isn't fear aggressive, but the commonly recommend methods for dealing with this that is offered here won't do any harm if she isn't fear aggressive. the worst case is some easily earned treats and a dog who has a stellar U Turn and watch me.
I agree completely. That's why my goal is not to have her make friends out there, but just be able to walk past other dogs calmly.
jacksdad wrote:It could also be that she isn't used to not being able to go up to other dogs at will. But going up to strange dogs carries it's own risk and is often considered rude by other dogs and their humans. The same steps to address this situation are the same basic ones you use to address fear aggression. over time left un addressed this to can lead to aggressive behavior towards dogs out of not fear but frustration.
Yes, unfortunately, I don't know her complete background before coming to me, only that she was housed with a very dominant Husky.

Well, I really appreciate your taking the time to reply to me Jacksdad! But if the jarred baby food and/or the fur doesn't hold her attention, what do you think of my idea for training her by letting her walk behind another dog until she (hopefully) calms down. I would be sure to keep a reasonable distance for Layla and only do so if the dog in front was calm. Otherwise, I U-turn it and head home.
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by jacksdad »

Sue1234 wrote:To add to my training dilemma, she is also not toy driven. Right from the start she has played mostly by herself. If we try to join in she will almost always stop playing, drop whatever she has (not with fear or distress, just happily drop it) and romp around us.
That might be your starting place. she does what you ask, she gets a few seconds to play with you. leave her wanting more. if playing with you even for a few second gets her attention and makes her happy, then that is a possible reward.
Sue1234 wrote: what do you think of my idea for training her by letting her walk behind another dog until she (hopefully) calms down. I would be sure to keep a reasonable distance for Layla and only do so if the dog in front was calm. Otherwise, I U-turn it and head home.
I wouldn't. too much can go wrong. The other dog might be calm until you follow it. My dog is fine following, but get's worried/anxious if followed by human or dog. so if you were to see us walking, he might look calm to you, but suddenly this strange dog follow him could cause problems for both of us.

You can achieve your goals of a calm dog around other dogs without actually going up to other dogs. Life will ensure you will have up close encounters want them or not, so it's best to not force and look for it. Please don't take my advice to mean you and your dog have to be isolated from other dogs the rest of your dogs life, but it's better to be cautious and take it one step at a time. IF the issue is fear, stress management will be crucial and forcing your dog to deal with dogs earlier then she is ready will make it harder to deal with those unwanted and surprise encounters that will happen.

As the training progresses, you get to know your dog, your dog gets to know you and becomes more reliably calm around other dogs, avoiding dogs becomes less critical, keeping distance becomes less critical. BUT there still is nothing that says your dog has to go up and greet another dog to be "socialized/happy". Some dogs are perfectly calm, confident, socialized and still don't want another dog coming up to them. Their owners may not want other dogs coming up to them and their dog. Something to keep in mind.
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Noobs
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Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by Noobs »

jacksdad wrote:
Sue1234 wrote: what do you think of my idea for training her by letting her walk behind another dog until she (hopefully) calms down. I would be sure to keep a reasonable distance for Layla and only do so if the dog in front was calm. Otherwise, I U-turn it and head home.
I wouldn't. too much can go wrong. The other dog might be calm until you follow it. My dog is fine following, but get's worried/anxious if followed by human or dog. so if you were to see us walking, he might look calm to you, but suddenly this strange dog follow him could cause problems for both of us.
I agree. The only way this would be beneficial is if you plan it ahead of time with the owner of a very well behaved and calm dog. Otherwise as jacksdad said, being able to see a dog without approaching it is often enough.
Sue1234
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:10 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by Sue1234 »

Thanks Jacksdad and Noobs for taking the time to help me and Layla out. She's a great dog that deserves the best I have to give her. Your advice is very much appreciated! :)
levenshugh
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:56 am

Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by levenshugh »

We were heading right toward the dog and with the parked cars there was no way around it, so I stopped to prevent us from getting any closer. My husband was behind me and I was waiting for him to turn around so I could go back.We've just worked so freakin' hard to get to where she is now that I don't want to go back to Georgia freaking out every time we go past another dog. The last hurdle to her passing her therapy dog test is being able to meet a neutral dog without overreacting, and since we've worked so hard I'm probably more upset than I should be.
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Mattie
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Re: Training My Reactive Dog On Walks

Post by Mattie »

Noobs wrote:
jacksdad wrote:
Sue1234 wrote: what do you think of my idea for training her by letting her walk behind another dog until she (hopefully) calms down. I would be sure to keep a reasonable distance for Layla and only do so if the dog in front was calm. Otherwise, I U-turn it and head home.
I wouldn't. too much can go wrong. The other dog might be calm until you follow it. My dog is fine following, but get's worried/anxious if followed by human or dog. so if you were to see us walking, he might look calm to you, but suddenly this strange dog follow him could cause problems for both of us.
I agree. The only way this would be beneficial is if you plan it ahead of time with the owner of a very well behaved and calm dog. Otherwise as jacksdad said, being able to see a dog without approaching it is often enough.
Victoria does this sometimes, getting a reactive dog to walk at a distance they feel safe at behind another, calm dog, the handler rains down high reward treats. Victoria does pick the dog to walk in front very carefully, it isn't any local dog.
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