Any Advice For Improvement?

[Buddy'smyboy]

Theories are ten a penny

Oi, you should have seen all of the dog training adds that popped up That is truly evil. Oh, and not to mention the hundred thousand whatever search results

There is no pack stuff between humans and dogs, and hierarchy in a group of dogs is fluid and changing constantly. The dog in front is not the leader - humans love the idea of leaders who go first and get all the best of everything, but social animals don't live like that. The dog in front is at risk - the dog behind is safe. In terms of walking on leads, it is purely a matter of your dog walked nicely and the other didn't.

So if I'm in front and he's behind me is he actually relieved because he's in the safer of the two positions and grateful that he's not in the front if we come upon something new or unnerving? And on a completely unrelated yet somehow connected topic in my mind, this made me think of a lion pride. Male lion is on the front lines when defending a pride while lionesses and cubs are behind not in the fight and out of harm's way (unless their male loses... in which case all the cubs die but that's not the point). Is that kind of what the front dog back dog thing is like? (I realize it's random to compare canines to felines, but sometimes my mind is a bit random )

Good authors to read include Patricia McConnel, Jean Donaldson, Ali Brown. Others will add their choices. I used to really like Ian Dunbar but have just finished picking my way through some of his training booklets and oh dear! I won't recommend him now.

Alright, I'll have to write those down and look up some books. btw, why don't you like Ian Dunbar anymore? Now I'm curious too.

But the dog is your best teacher. Have a read of our pinned threads, especialy those on dominance and pack stuff, and you'll see where it goes wrong.

Most of all, dogs want to be safe. They like us to show them what to do, and they don't care for making decisions. They can only learn at their own pace and if we rush them, we scare them and then they can't learn at all.

Have a good read through our articles and come back with your questions

.

Heh, I think it's funny that after reading through all new comments, I'm both my dog's teacher and he's my teacher at the same time. We're co-teachers! ... or something like that

Well, if the alpha thing did get something right, it was right when it said that most dogs are not born with a more dominant disposition. It did say that most dogs are submissive and don't like calling the shots.

Alright, I'll go read articles whenever my eyes relax (darn I hate it when they sting ). I think I like the contacts better, they don't have the fish bowl effect to them and they don't make my eyes hurt as much. Although my left contact got foggy after two or three hours so I took them out. Must have been something in it, or I needed a drop of solution.

[Leigha]

It's not so much that they're submissive as it is they just don't have any need or want to "take over" our life. They don't plot to take us over or dominate us. You will learn from your dog, that's what being a good owner is about. You should learn everything about your dog that your dog can teach you. It'll help your relationship and your training.

[Buddy'smyboy]

Mattie, I think you have been just a bit harsh on this little girl. First of all, new glasses, as I'm sure you know, do take time getting accustomed to. (Mr. Fundog had a dickens of a time adjusting to his new bifocals!) Second, despite her precocity, she is still just a child. I realize that you have been under an extreme amount of stress recently, and that can affect the way you perceive what you are reading. If that can happen to you, then it can happen to anyone, particularly a child who has not yet reached full maturity.

I didn't realise she was only 13, sorry, her writing is quite mature for someone of that age and I assumed she was an adult.

Yes we do write differently when we are under stress, words get put together differently.

Why do people always think I'm older than I really am? People look at me and think I'm sixteen. Then they look at my writing ( 12th grade reading/writing level ) and I've written a 17 page paper while everyone else in the class wrote five or less. Not that it's a problem, I like it when they think I'm more mature, but still...

AHEM, anyway, I understand, and besides I'm not going to get angry with you regardless since at least in the U.S. (where I live) you are entitled to freedom of speech, and even at 13, I do try my best to be as open minded as possible. Mistakes and misunderstandings just happen. Like my grandma would say when she's not on her whako medications, best to accept and move on. (I really should record my grandma under the influence of her medications and cheer everybody up. This thread suddenly seems a little gloomy to me. My favorite random grandma thought so far has been, "When are you gonna get the... tuna!" )

[Fundog]

Buddy'smyboy, If your local library is near enough for you to get to conveniently enough, you can check out a lot of these books that have been recommended, without spending money you don't have.

And I'm glad you're not letting that little "incident" scare you off! We are all really a very nice bunch.

[Buddy'smyboy]

If I had done research like you when I was 13 (and if it had been available...was there even an internet back then?) then my childhood dog would have lived his life fully and happily, and not all alone in our back yard with no human contact except when my dad put his food dish out for him.

Pssht, my dad never even did THAT for Buddy. I did. I still don't get why he didn't like him.

When I first got my dog over two years ago (he was 8 months old) I went nuts doing research and watching dog shows and reading books. Luckily all the books I got were the right ones, and any bad info I found was just on the internet or on TV - and by that I mean I didn't have to waste money on rubbish books. The downside is that I found the bad info to begin with. There is likely more bad info out there than good. I can assure you that THIS forum is the SAFEST place for you to do research. The folks here will tell you the right books to read, the right websites to visit, and the right methods to use. If anyone here accidentally gives you the wrong info, you'll get the correct info FAST. People here are on the ball.

Well, at least I haven't been doing anything too much for too long of a while so there's still time I believe to get the right stuff.

Now when I say the "right" info, I mean "safe and effective." Lots of methods will work for sure, but many of them will damage your relationship with your dog.

I subscribed to the alpha stuff very briefly. Oh yes, I did all of the following:

- pretended to eat out of my dog's bowl
- made him wait at the door to let me walk through first
- made him get up to move so I could walk by even if he was lying down comfortably and there was plenty of room to walk around him
- took his bone from him and then gave it back in order to prove to him that it was mine and I was just allowing him to play with it
- alpha rolled him when he nipped at someone as a fear response

And so much more!

So what did that accomplish? I succeeded in getting my dog to:

- snap at my hands
- growl when I approached while he played with a toy
- cower when I stood near him
- flinch when I reached for him (even if it was just to pet him)

AND I made all his fear issues ten times worse. He started out only fearing cats and large, strange objects on the street, then it became people and other dogs too! Fun right?

It hasn't gotten to any of that stuff yet. I've only done 1,2, and 5, though 1 only to a small extent, and he's only ever had one experience with 5 and that was with Rico.

I'm telling you all this because I don't want you to go down the same road I did, not any further than you already have. So from now on, I ask that you think of things a different way. Don't "correct" your dog - teach him what you want from him and be patient as he learns. You are not alpha, you are not a pack leader. You are his TEACHER.

So, moving forward...

Your recall issue from your original post... read these:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6555
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6364
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5962
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4310
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5452

Okay, I'll read those (but not tonight, my eyes don't want to. For some reason they seem to be under more strain today, probably because this is the first somewhat "full" day that I've worn them; I also wore my contacts).

Sounds like you have a big yard, yes? So you have lots of room to practice.

Well, yes and no. Yes, the backyard is big if you include the swingset with a recenty discovered and freakishly large hornet nest, the flower beds, and garden in the back, while the front is about the same size but without the garden and swingset of horrors. The no comes from the fact that it is not completely fenced in, and there are five places that he could easily get out of if I let him off leash to play or practice and the fence all around was designed for cows, not for intelligent and crafty canine escape artists. I'm not sure I trust our recall training well enough to let him off to play and explore. I still have more reading and training to do.

Don't correct him. Don't make him be out there alone. Go out and interact with him or bring him inside. He needs to be with his family. Please rethink the outdoor dog thing. You're worried about shedding? Brush him every day. It's a great bonding experience for both of you in addition to helping with the shedding issue.

No, it's not the shedding thing. I already brush him every day and even without the brushing he hardly sheds unless it is seasonal change shedding or something like that. The first problem is that he is not house trained. We tried to house train him several times when he was a pup, and none worked.
Second problem is, even if we did bring him in we simply couldn't bring him in during warm weather unless we got him a bib because long threads of drool hang from his mouth as he pants and I'm no so sure dog slobber and new carpet work well together (or that my mom would like it).
Third, our grandma's house is pretty small, and Buddy's a BIG boy. Plus we have plenty of boxes around that he might knock over with his big body. (again, something my mom would not enjoy).
Lastly, the fourth and biggest reason is my grandma's oxygen machines are right in the living room and being as big as he is if he were to bump something accidentally and damage the machine, my grandma has about 36 hours of easy breathing with her reserve tanks before she's screwed and we probably have to go back to the hospital so she can be on oxygen. Or worse, he might nudge her with his nose and these days it doesn't take much to throw her off balance.

I'm sure there are many ways out there to work with house training and making him give my grandma space, but I'd have to talk with my mom to get the two middle issues cleared.

You sound like you have a lovely dog with a few issues you need to work through. And you're having a rough time right now with everything your family is going through (I can relate to more from that list of things going on than I care to recall right now). Your dog will help you through all of the stress your family is going through. Pets are wonderful that way. So make sure you do the same for him, make sure that you deserve the unconditional love he's giving you.

Thanks, I'm going to keep working with him But now I have to get off and DO SOMETHING because my leg has fallen asleep.

[jacksdad]

just another pitch for buying this book first. it's not a training book per say, but I really, really think it will help you better understand buddy. Think of it as a entry level "decoder" ring for dog to human, human to dog communication.

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... h-your-dog

it's written by one of the authors Nettles recommends.

your right there is a LOT out there and as others have mentioned, a lot are garbage. I remember standing in Boards Books back right after getting Jack and thinking, which one do I buy, how do I know which one is the "right" book. I chose two books that day. One of which was "other end of the leash", I read it first, never cracked the cover of the other book.

Until you can get a chance to buy it you can read Patricia's blogs here. lots of good tidbits http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/

A very high level explanation of the correct definition of dominance is "priority access to resources". It's not about who is in charge. strong and confident dogs often do end up with the desired resource, but that alone doesn't make them in charge or a true "alpha" type dog. could just mean they are a bully, or they leveraged their confidence and strength to win the resource. Also who ends up with a resource can change with each dog's desire/interest in that resource so who is "dominate" can change based on if the dog even cares about the resource in question or not. Again, bottom line, it's not about who is in charge.

Patricia did a three or four blog series on the issue, starts here, check it out if you feel like getting "geeky" http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/th ... -dominance

Other wise keep it simple, as already stated, dogs know we aren't dogs, and they are not trying to take over and rule/control you. They are simply trying to get by using the rules/customs/behaviors they know. Which by default is...Dog rules/customs/behaviors. It's our jobs to teach them how to get by in the human world. I also think trying to learn what our dogs are trying to "say" is also worth while. make life between you and your dog less stressful for both of you. Imagine being dropped into a foreign country where you don't speak the language and understand the customs and every time you tried to communicate with the only means you know how you got punished. I think that is how a lot of dogs feel.

It is far more constructive to think about what you want your dog to do and try and teach that, rather then always "correcting" or saying "NO". Example, you say buddy jumps on you and other people. So, what do you want buddy to do when greeting you and or other people. once you know, teach that to buddy, make it buddy's job to behave the way you want, and when he does he earns a "pay check". this often starts out as treats, but can become just your praise and affection over time. So not jumping on people becomes far more rewarding than jumping on people and jumping on people goes away.

Another thing you can do is listen to and observe your dog, if your dog has learned he can offer behavior without punishment (see correction and trying to be alpha/dominate on your dog), sometimes a dog will offer a behavior you will see and go "hey, that's pretty good" and than you reinforce that behavior with a reward. And if they know it's safe to offer behavior, they learn quicker because they don't fear being "corrected" or "punished" if they don't get it right the first time.

keep asking questions, keep learning.

[Buddy'smyboy]

HunniBunni,

Mattie almost lost her Ellie this week and missed that detail and she apologized. Please, let's just get past this.

Who's Ellie? Is that Mattie's dog?

[Buddy'smyboy]

Buddy'smyboy was not even as "outraged" as you were even when the words were against him, not you, so take that as a sign of maturity.

Ahem, she.

[Buddy'smyboy]

I know the website you're talking about, they tend to be very dominance oriented and are about your dog needing to have a strong leader and not allowing themselves to be dominated by the dog.

I doubt that what you've done is going to cause permanent psychological damage to the dog. I don't see what you did as being horribly awful, but could perhaps cause the dog to lose balance and pull a muscle maybe? Generally to deal with jumping dogs we suggest that you turn your back on the dog and ignore. No words, no touching, just turn your back.

Instead of having him doing his jumping dance around people (being someone who has a dog that does this, it's annoying) you might want to teach him to sit and wait before he greets someone. When someone knocks on the door, have him sit several feet away from the door. Get him to sit & stay. Go to open the door, if he stands up and gets jumpy, shut the door, and put him back in the sit/stay. You might have to do this over and over where you can simply open the door an inch, then shut it again. Go slowly, but eventually you'll be able to get him to sit/stay, open the door, and let your guests into the house all without getting jumped on or around.

Um, this sounds as if you are suggesting a method for a dog inside a home? Buddy's an out door dog, he'd meet the people before they even got the door. We'd know if people came in before they got to the door too because he barks two or three times when somebody drives in, which is great if you're on the other side of the house or out back gardening and can't hear the door bell. He usually only does one half circle and then he's done. Although, he did really good today. My cousin Ian came with his girlfriend Danny and her three year old daughter London and Buddy went up and sniffed them and even when Danny put London down he was still really gentle and she was out there petting his head.
We went to the zoo today. I love the actic fox they had. At first he ran up on a log and onto a tree stump and curled up like he was going to take a nap, and then this guy eating an ice cream and holding a bag of popcorn walked up and suddenly he was alert and jumped down from the stump and crept over to the water's edge in his exhibit as he stared at the guy with the ice cream. It was a hot day today.

[Buddy'smyboy]

Mattie, I looked at the 7 page loose leash link you listed and it mentioned harnesses so now I'm curious as to whether or not I'm using a good harness. I use the sporn halter, and it looks like this:

http://www.sporn.com/cgi-bin/commerce.e ... ey=SPUS100

I've taken him on walks with it at our old house but not here (I unburied it from under a box just now). He seemed to do really good with it before. There were only two things I didn't like about it. The first thing being that it took me forever to get it on because I always somehow twisted it inside out with my super awesom skills and fortunately Buddy was very patient with me as he sat waiting for me, giving me an encouraging lick from time to time.
The second was that the strap part in the back that the leash hooks to would slack up if he walked beside me and then the armpit thingys got really close to the ground so if he lifted his feet up much he might slip a leg out. I believe this might be because it is a size too large for him since I did have to adjust the harness to a smaller size to fit it on him without it slipping (and since he's slimmed down more I'll probably have to adjust it again).
Other than that, it never rubbed against him and if he did pull his pulling power was considerably less, even on the rare occurance that we did run into another dog (the ironic thing is that we have only ever met one dog (not including Rico, who's case is still debatable) that got along with him). The straps loosen up and hang a little when he's walking so the only thing that is really in contact with skin is the red part of the harness. It only tightens when he pulls. Is this a good harness to use?


BTW, While I'm thinking about it, are multiple bad encounters with dogs a bad thing for him? I'll list all encounters he's had with other dogs.

1. Our first dog Lucy did not like him from the get go. She growled at him and when I took Buddy on walks around the yard, she'd follow us peeing wherever he peed. I think she didn't like him in her "territory" judging from the peeing thing.

2. When we took Buddy and Lucy on a walk down the road, a pit bull came tearing out a driveway and straight for us in obvious attack mode as he aimed for Lucy. My dad kicked him in the side and he circled back around going for my sister instead. My mom stood in front of her and used the infamous "grandpa voice" (my grandpa had a really deep voice and every dog he ever met knew he meant buisness if he used it) and that dog stopped, shrank, and high tailed it the other way. Buddy just looked at him like, "Huh? You attacking a human? What's wrong with you?"
A female also came out of the driveway and this one was friendly but we didn't introduce them given the state of events.

3. I went down alone on the same road with Buddy and a different pitbull came out barking at us at a different location (but apparently owned by the same person(s), though my details are fuzzy). She had obviously had puppies recently and she seemed quite irratable. Buddy wagged his tail and sniffed noses with her and she growled at him some before she suddenly snapped at his face and not wanting a fight I used my own "grandpa voice" shouting "HEY!" and although both of them shrank down the female did retreat and trot down the road to her home.

4. On the same road (I'm sensing a reoccuring pattern ), met two herding dogs through a fence. Sniffed noses, and then the dogs tried to snap at him through the fence as they exploded into a barking frenzy. Buddy retreated back a little and we walked on since at the time I did not see any point in standing next to a fence and two frenzied dogs any longer.

5. Again, on the same road, my sister and I went over to our neighbor's house. They have two dogs, a male german shepard named Thor and a male bassett hound named Rocky. Then Natalie, the mom of the house, came in and said Thor and Buddy had got in a fight, much to my confusion (Buddy was supposed to be back in his enclosure at home). So I went out and sure enough, he was there. He had dug out of his enclosure and come over to the neighbors most likely because we were there and he saw us go over before making his escape.
Natalie explained that Buddy had come in the driveway and at first Buddy and Thor had seemed to get along fine and they had actually started play restling when suddenly Buddy must have made Thor feel threatened because he suddenly launched into attack mode. Buddy submitted immediately, but when Thor continued his attack he was forced to retaliate and fight back. Buddy had a tiny scratch above his eye and Thor's ear got torn, but otherwise they were both fine. I don't know if Buddy ever got along with Rocky. Natalie never mentioned him.

6. The ONLY open and visibly positive encounter he's had. I again walked down the same road and we met a black female lab named Dora that we had found lost before and held onto until we found her owner. Dora was about a year old. They sniffed noses, wagged, sniffed hind quarters, and seemed to get along fine. I let them sniff for a few minutes and there was no growling from either. I petted and praised him for being a good boy and having no confrontation as we moved on. Dora actually tried to follow us and I had to tell her to go home.

7. This one actually happened at my grandma's house. Remember when I mentioned the neighbor on the left who had two dogs? Well, his name is Chris, he's actually a pretty good friend of ours, and he was helping fix up the garage one day his dogs jumped into the car and refused to budge. So he eventually just brought them over. The more dominant of two dogs is Rock, a big male shepard cross who likes to be the boss and has wandered around a lot and even in my grandma's yard. The other is a medium male mutt that is a stray he's taken in that he's named Pettie. Pettie was no problem on this encounter (though ironically Pettie is the one that barked and growled at me when I walked by).
Rock kept on trying to climb out of the truck and was growling the whole time as Buddy looked up at him and growled to a lesser degree but seemed more curious than actually agressive like Rock's body language suggested. Neither calmed down even after about five minutes so to settle their dispute we agreed to introduce them. Just as I had thought, as soon as the door opened Rock rocket launched down onto Buddy. Buddy side stepped him but Rock still got a hold on his shoulder fur, but it was thick enough he didn't draw blood. Buddy whirled around and bit at his haunches. They did two or three circles before Chris shouted his command to Rock and that made Rock stop the attack and Chris commanded him back in the truck. He didn't look too thrilled about it, but he got in the truck anyway. There was no growling from either of them again and I haven't seen Rock in the yard since, so Buddy must have established himself as a dog he shouldn't mess with. He's peed around the yard regularly so I think he's possibly established the yard as his territory and maybe that's why Rock avoids it now.

8. When we were at the vet and got him microchipped and checked up on there was a really over weight Rottwieller across from us that kept growling and trying to get at Buddy repeatedly. Buddy did try to lift his leg while the rotty was watching, but I stopped him just in time. After a few minutes they both came to reasonable calm and Buddy lay down and relaxed so I started petting him. The rott still seemed a bit irritated though.

Okay, if I could comments on how I/Buddy did in any of these situations, I would really appreciate it because I would like it if I could eventually socialize Buddy with more dogs. One consistent thing that I've noticed with Buddy is that he always seemed to wag his tail during the encounter and his ears are generally perked up and to the sides, if that helps at all.

[Noobs]

Why do people always think I'm older than I really am?

For one, you are writing in complete sentences and not using 'netspeak. I know people older than you who use text shortcuts such as "u" or "ur" instead of "you" and "your".

But anyway.

Have a look at those threads on recall when you get a chance. You'll see that practicing requires using a long line, so don't worry about your yard not being enclosed, because you'll have a long line on your dog.

[Buddy'smyboy]

Why do people always think I'm older than I really am?

For one, you are writing in complete sentences and not using 'netspeak. I know people older than you who use text shortcuts such as "u" or "ur" instead of "you" and "your".

But anyway.

Have a look at those threads on recall when you get a chance. You'll see that practicing requires using a long line, so don't worry about your yard not being enclosed, because you'll have a long line on your dog.

Okay, I'll try to find time today to do that. The physical therapy guys are coming today to check on my grandma so it will have to be later in the day though. I'm pretty sure I started reading Mattie's last night (at 12 a.m. ), but I think I got to the second page before I called it quits for the night. My mom kept me up by watching the news passed 11 so I figured I'd read something. I'm so tired...Zzzzzz

[macolly]

Unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you as far as training Buddy not to run toward noises. I just wanted to tell you how impressed I am with both your writing ability and your determination to train your dog. I look forward to reading more about your adventures with Buddy. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you can't keep Buddy in the house. When I was growing up all of our family dogs had to stay in the garage or the basement and they did just fine but I do think they are social animals who love to be around their people. Maybe at some point you'll be able to work out a way to manage that.
Best of luck to you.

[Buddy'smyboy]

Unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you as far as training Buddy not to run toward noises. I just wanted to tell you how impressed I am with both your writing ability and your determination to train your dog. I look forward to reading more about your adventures with Buddy. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you can't keep Buddy in the house. When I was growing up all of our family dogs had to stay in the garage or the basement and they did just fine but I do think they are social animals who love to be around their people. Maybe at some point you'll be able to work out a way to manage that.
Best of luck to you.

Thank you very much. And I hope he'll be able to be in the house sometime too.



Also, I just got done reading some articles on this website about positive reinforcement and the like, and I have a question. In some instances is it appropriate to correct Buddy using his word, "no" ? On one of his first visits into the garage I also had to do some late night laundry and when I was doing that I heard this rustling noise behind me. I turned around and found Buddy chewing on the corner of one of the cardboard boxes in the room. This was after the painters started working so I feared he might ingest something harmful, so I said "no" and looked at him. He immediately stopped chewing on the box and wagging his tail he came back over to me and lay down on his dog bed. After he lay down for a few seconds I petted him and praised him and I haven't caught him chewing on a box or found the chewed remains of a box since. This was before I got on this website too by the way. So can using "no" be an acceptable thing to do sometimes and also did I use a good method for correcting the unwanted behavior of box chewing?

[Buddy'smyboy]

first I have to get him from pulling when he sees other dogs. Any advice on that?

sense you know how to research, going to wimp out on you and give you another link viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7266

this is a thread we are helping someone with who has a dog with fear issues. At least from what you have posted so far about buddy, it's probably just a matter of being excited about being out and seeing other dogs, people, smells etc. so if pulling towards a dog is the only issue and buddy isn't doing anything like growling, barking, hackles up, or otherwise behaving aggressively and can break his attention back to you. Most likely you just need to build that focus back on you work.

basically, see dog, call buddy's attention back to you with a watch me command etc making it worth his while with yummy treats.

HOWEVER if you do suspect fear issues, that link is full of info and tips, and in this case, create a fresh thread and go into more detail about what is happening with buddy when you encounter a dog and we will give you a lot more specific help.[/quote]

I read the thread and I don't think he has fear issues either. This seems to be his basic reaction to dogs from what I can recall:

When he first sees the other dog his ears and tail go up and he looks at the dog. Then his tail starts wagging as he tries to get over and meet them. Typically he and the other dog will sniff noses first and there may be some light growling from him or the other dog or both. He's never growled at female dogs before, only other males. After the initial sniff he normally stops growling. Usually he wags his tail and his ears are up and to the sides. He doesn't cower down, but depending on the dog he will either stand still as the other dog sniffs around him before sniffing them himself, or he will go ahead and do the sniffing first. Sometimes they sniff at the same time.

I might have made a mistake or two in recalling those memories, but that's basically what happens. I'm sure you're probably right about him just being excited. We've never gotten into a fight on leash before.