Territorial/no recall/JRT

[GllntKnight]

Help...

[Mattie]

There is nothing in your post GllntKnight.

We can''t help if we don't have any information on your dog, what you have done to train him, not just recall for everything, What his normal day is and what food he is on, these are all relevant.

I am happy to help if I can but getting really fed up with you saying you want help but won't give any information, I am beginning to think you are a troll, if you really want help please give us the information we need to help.

[emmabeth]

Can you tell us (copy and paste this and put your answers underneath:??)

This dogs daily routine, so...

When is she walked, where is she walked, for how long.

When is she trained, how, and for how long each day.

Off lead exercise? when, where, how?

Food - when, how much?

Is she left alone at all, and if so, for how long and where and are there any problems with this?

Can you describe where, when and how she won't recall - will she recall inside the house for example, or outside IF theres nothing else going on? What do you do if she wont come back and what do you do when she finally does come back?

When you say territorial can you describe how this happens, what else is going on at the timea nd what you do about it?

Also add in any other information you might think is relevant.

[GllntKnight]

Can you tell us (copy and paste this and put your answers underneath:??)

This dogs daily routine, so...
1/4C Natural Balance AMP in am
When is she walked, where is she walked, for how long.
She isn't have 4+ acres for her and her brother to hunt and chase each other occasionally throw ball or use lure course on cool days been extremely hot lately
When is she trained, how, and for how long each day.
I've given up so don't train anymore
Off lead exercise? when, where, how?
see above 4+ acres ..
Food - when, how much?
4.1 oz. raw in PM
Is she left alone at all, and if so, for how long and where and are there any problems with this?
crated at night and when we go out, time varies her brother is crated right next to her no problems
Can you describe where, when and how she won't recall - will she recall inside the house for example, or outside IF theres nothing else going on? What do you do if she wont come back and what do you do when she finally does come back?
yes recalls inside not outside shut the door and try again later eventually she is outside the door close enough to grab and bring in..
When you say territorial can you describe how this happens, what else is going on at the timea nd what you do about it?
Nothing is going on other than people trespassing, nothing just warn people away.
Bites anyone that enters the yard two bitten already that's why all deliveries are made into a deck box on the other side of the invisible fence and oil or gas deliveries must call a day in advance so she is in when they come otherwise they are told to come another day this happened with the gas man he wasn't informed to call by the office There also a sign by the deck box that if something need a signature blow horn so someone will come out to sign.
Also add in any other information you might think is relevant.
emmabeth

Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: Manchester
Private messageWebsite

[emmabeth]

Right -

First of all what you do you want from your dogs? What sort of relationship do you want with them?

Walking and training daily - these are NOT just about physical exercise and good behaviour, they are also about creating a bond with your dog, a healthy well balanced relationship where they learn that you are interesting and fun to work with, listen to and generally be around.

Right now you are down, about their behaviour and probably other things too, I dont know.

They know this, you get frustrated with them and I am sure you realise, its no fun being around someone who is frustrated, sot he more frustrated or mad you get... the more they avoid and dont want to work with you.

Take each dog, seperately, on a walk on a leash every day. It doesnt matter if that walk is slow, or for just 10 minutes, or is around your own property. Just you and the dog, take a pocket full of treats and a couple of fun toys that they dont get to see every day.

If either dog pulls on the leash, follow the loose leash walking method - stick to 10 minutes per walk. You can do as many walks as y ou like per day, but keep it to no moret han 10 minutes as this stops it being boring and stops you getting frustrated or disheartened.

It doesnt matter if you dont 'need' to walk your dogs on a leash allt hat often, the point of it is that the loose leash walking method (in the articles section) teaches your dog to pay attention to you, focus on you, you are rewarding and interesting to be around. If your dog walks nicely, ask for sits, downs, waits at the full length of the lead, stays at the full length of the lead (I use 'wait' for 'wait, then im going to ask you to do something else' and 'stay' for 'stay there until i come back and release you).

Mix up the rewards too so that sometimes its kibble, sometimes its hotdog, sometimes its a game with a tugger rope, sometimes (if you are also using a long line) its a chase after a toy, sometimes its a fuss and a scritch in their itchy place.

Again this keeps you unpredictable and interesting, dogs like that a lot.

Do training sessions in the house, again one dog at a time. Have you looked at clicker training? If you did two five minute sessions per dog, per day, plus one 10 minute walk on a leash per day - the improvements would come quickly and progress would be made.

I already went into some detail about recall on the recall thread so I will try not to repeat that here.

If you add the above, to the advice you were given about recall, ie, not letting the girl with no recall off leash on your property until she comes back in the house, and outdoors on a long line you will make even better progress.

Territorial barking - how are they if you introduce themto a visitor, can you introduce them to strangers at all?

If not, this isnt much to do with territory - it is to do with them being fearful of strangers. The typical terrier response to something scary is to defend themselves, fairly confidently and aggressively. We have bred them to be this way.

First step as ever is to manage it. Whilst warning people to call first or to leave things in a box outside the boundary is some form of management, the problem is if they are loose in the front yard, they see scary people arrive... think 'must defend ourselves'.... scary people go way... 'wow, that works, will do that again'.

They do not realise the people would have gone away regardless of whether they barked or not.

So your first step, is to stop them being in the front yard at all. Then they cannot be rewarded for this behaviour, it will become less of an ingrained habit.

The next step, once they are no longer practicing this behaviour and their stress levels are much lower, is to take one dog at a time - work with them for just a few minutes at a time, on counter conditioning them to the sight of people.

You may need to start on your front step, down the hall, you may need to go somewhere away from your house, sit in a car at the far end of a quiet carpark.

You have to find the distance at which that dog will see the person, but NOT react, they must be able to take a treat or play with a toy.

When you have that distance sorted out, work at that level a few times a week with each dog. The goal you are looking for here is that the dog sees the person and looks to YOU for their reward 'ooh, person = treat'.

When they can do that then you can bring the distance down a little. Or you can try a new location - only change ONE aspect of this at any one time, so say your dog can see five people walking about from 100ft away. You want to get nearer, see if you can do just ONE person from 80ft away rather than five, that makes it easier for the dog to get right.

If you do make a mistake, back off and give it a few days before you try again because stress levels take days rather than minutes to drop back down.

You really can fix these things if you want to, and if you have any problems with the suggestions here, tell us what they are and we can work out a different way to apply teh same method.

I wont lie to you though, whilst if you do what I have said here you will see some progress quite quickly, to actually solve these problems long term it IS going to take you months and months of work.

[GllntKnight]

Right -

First of all what you do you want from your dogs? What sort of relationship do you want with them?

basically pets that love me as I love them and trials as we can afford them Two years ago Wilbur won Reserve Champion diddn't go last year this year he got champion next trial in August if he does well He will be going to the Nationals in October.

Walking and training daily - these are NOT just about physical exercise and good behaviour, they are also about creating a bond with your dog, a healthy well balanced relationship where they learn that you are interesting and fun to work with, listen to and generally be around.

Right now you are down, about their behaviour and probably other things too, I dont know.

They know this, you get frustrated with them and I am sure you realise, its no fun being around someone who is frustrated, sot he more frustrated or mad you get... the more they avoid and dont want to work with you.

Take each dog, seperately, on a walk on a leash every day. It doesnt matter if that walk is slow, or for just 10 minutes, or is around your own property. Just you and the dog, take a pocket full of treats and a couple of fun toys that they dont get to see every day.

I can't walk much due to my disability. Don't do toys as they destroy them in minutes and am afraid of intestinal problem from swalled pies even the extreme Kong is destroyed. She is too fat so am cutting back on treats.

If either dog pulls on the leash, follow the loose leash walking method - stick to 10 minutes per walk. You can do as many walks as y ou like per day, but keep it to no moret han 10 minutes as this stops it being boring and stops you getting frustrated or disheartened.

They both pull and walk me, then I fall when I step in a hole and could seriously injure myself or even become paralized. A fall couild be bad for me that is why I no longer ride my horses had them euthanized and buried out back. I sure do miss riding but now must think of myself.

It doesnt matter if you dont 'need' to walk your dogs on a leash allt hat often, the point of it is that the loose leash walking method (in the articles section) teaches your dog to pay attention to you, focus on you, you are rewarding and interesting to be around. If I wish there was loose leash but they drag me all over and can't handle it.your dog walks nicely, ask for sits, downs, waits at the full length of the lead, stays at the full length of the lead (I use 'wait' for 'wait, then im going to ask you to do something else' and 'stay' for 'stay there until i come back and release you).

I wish there was loose leash but they drag me all over and can't handle it.

Mix up the rewards too so that sometimes its kibble, sometimes its hotdog, sometimes its a game with a tugger rope, sometimes (if you are also using a long line) its a chase after a toy, sometimes its a fuss and a scritch in their itchy place.

Again this keeps you unpredictable and interesting, dogs like that a lot.

Do training sessions in the house, again one dog at a time. Have you looked at clicker training? If you did two five minute sessions per dog, per day, plus one 10 minute walk on a leash per day - the improvements would come quickly and progress would be made.

I already went into some detail about recall on the recall thread so I will try not to repeat that here.

If you add the above, to the advice you were given about recall, ie, not letting the girl with no recall off leash on your property until she comes back in the house, and outdoors on a long line you will make even better progress.

Territorial barking - how are they if you introduce themto a visitor, can you introduce them to strangers at all?

Yes if the fence collar is remove they will approach strangers and want to play they are fine at the trials etc We don't get visitors very often. Don't mind the barking it's the biting that she does.

If not, this isnt much to do with territory - it is to do with them being fearful of strangers. The typical terrier response to something scary is to defend themselves, fairly confidently and aggressively. We have bred them to be this way.

First step as ever is to manage it. Whilst warning people to call first or to leave things in a box outside the boundary is some form of management, the problem is if they are loose in the front yard, they see scary people arrive... think 'must defend ourselves'.... scary people go way... 'wow, that works, will do that again'.

They do not realise the people would have gone away regardless of whether they barked or not.

So your first step, is to stop them being in the front yard at all. Then they cannot be rewarded for this behaviour, it will become less of an ingrained habit.

The next step, once they are no longer practicing this behaviour and their stress levels are much lower, is to take one dog at a time - work with them for just a few minutes at a time, on counter conditioning them to the sight of people.

You may need to start on your front step, down the hall, you may need to go somewhere away from your house, sit in a car at the far end of a quiet carpark.

You have to find the distance at which that dog will see the person, but NOT react, they must be able to take a treat or play with a toy.

When you have that distance sorted out, work at that level a few times a week with each dog. The goal you are looking for here is that the dog sees the person and looks to YOU for their reward 'ooh, person = treat'.

When they can do that then you can bring the distance down a little. Or you can try a new location - only change ONE aspect of this at any one time, so say your dog can see five people walking about from 100ft away. You want to get nearer, see if you can do just ONE person from 80ft away rather than five, that makes it easier for the dog to get right.

If you do make a mistake, back off and give it a few days before you try again because stress levels take days rather than minutes to drop back down.

You really can fix these things if you want to, and if you have any problems with the suggestions here, tell us what they are and we can work out a different way to apply teh same method.

I wont lie to you though, whilst if you do what I have said here you will see some progress quite quickly, to actually solve these problems long term it IS going to take you months and months of work.

Thank you I will try when I can.
emmabeth

Posts: 3861
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: Manchester
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[emmabeth]

I can't walk very far either - if you cant walk around your property due to uneven ground (i cant walk on rough uneven grass)..

Get someone in to mow and roll a flat area?

Walk somewhere else, again one dog at a time.

Use a belt that you can clip a dog leash onto, and get a dog leash with an elasticated section (any saddler would easily make you one if you cant find one in stores, ditto a belt).

Using a belt and fixing the dog there means that any pull is to your middle, which is your centre of gravity, and is far far less likely (unless you are really tiny in fact i doubt it is possible for a JRT to pull you over if fixed to a belt round your waist, certainly wouldnt have me over and i am GOOD at falling down) to pull you off balance.

The elasticated section in a leash will take some of the shock out of a sudden tug and again reduce the chances of you falling or hurting yourself (or the dog).

If you just did even five minutes just up and down the road outside your house, heck take a chair out there so you can hae a rest, or get a mobility scooter (Mattie on here uses one!) this would be beneficial.

Im going to say something about the electric fence system here - I know you wont like it. That fence would seem to be WHY your dogs are aggressive and dangerous to visitors, if they are fearful and liable to bite when they are wearing those collars then it IS doing them damage, and it does mean they are a risk to other people, if they bite someone you risk legal action and having them taken and put down.

Ditch the fence, put up a proper fence at the front of the house, or dont have them out there. TGhis WILL reduce your problems with their behaviour hugely.

[emmabeth]

Couple of things I forgot to add.

You can make toys that if they DO shred bits off, will do them no harm - plait up strips of synthetic fleece material for example.

The way to use toys as a reward does not give the dog the opportunity to high tail it off with the toy and wreck it, you keep control of teh toy. Fix a tanned rabbit skin to an old lunge whip and use that as a rewarding toy to play wtih for a few minutes at a time. When you are done it gets put away again where the dog cannot reach it.

Have you tried toys made out of sections of firehose - these are incredibly tough, again play a game of tug with it for a short while and then put it away again.

Treats for training are fine - cut them small (little pinky nail sized pieces), do short sessions so you arent feeding a ton of treats.

When it comes to meal times, feed smaller meals to take into account the training treats.

Dont feed treats for any other reason than training!

[Mattie]

I can't walk much due to my disability. Don't do toys as they destroy them in minutes and am afraid of intestinal problem from swalled pies even the extreme Kong is destroyed. She is too fat so am cutting back on treats.

Several of us on here have walking problems due to our disabilities, there is nothing we can do to solve this but we can find ways round it. I have a mobility scooter for when I am really bad and like you am inclinded to fall over. Each time I fall I am in danger of my artificial hip coming out. I have these problems but they are not going to spoil my life, I have to deal with them and get the most out of life I can. I do have to be careful, but the more I do the more I am able to do.

You can get walking sticks with seats for when you need to rest, I have used these in the past and still have one in the caravan for when I need it.

Do what we keep saying with our dogs, think outside the box and you will have a much improved life which is really important, life if for living and we need to live it.

For toys, as Emmabeth said, fleece cut into strips and plaited make good toys, dogs love them especially terriers, they are soft and warm like their prey. You don't have to leave your dog with them, a short tuggy game as a reward before continuing the training, they can be just training toys which is a good idea to have. I can't leave my dogs with them or Bonnie will chew them. You can use other materials, cut down jeans etc will work but they are not as warm and soft as fleece.

They both pull and walk me, then I fall when I step in a hole and could seriously injure myself or even become paralized. A fall couild be bad for me that is why I no longer ride my horses had them euthanized and buried out back. I sure do miss riding but now must think of myself.

I taught my horse to go in harness, many people who develop disabilities transfer to this successfully, it is really good fun. There are several on here who also used to ride but no longer can, I started as a riding instructor and teaching students who were working for the BHS exams. Horses transfer to dogs very easily, both do well with positive training.

It doesnt matter if you dont 'need' to walk your dogs on a leash allt hat often, the point of it is that the loose leash walking method (in the articles section) teaches your dog to pay attention to you, focus on you, you are rewarding and interesting to be around. If I wish there was loose leash but they drag me all over and can't handle it.

I can't handle it either which is why I teach my dogs to walk on a loose leash, if you worked each dog for 10 minutes a day, loose lead walking, sit and rest, loose lead walking sit and rest etc. When you are sitting and resting you can be working on other things like sit, down, leave, roll over etc. teaching a dog to do tricks will help keep them occupied. If you can't train each dog every day then every other will have to do, your dogs will be slower to learn but you will still get there.

You said in another post that you go into the house and she will eventually come to the door when you grab her, no wonder she won't come to you, stop the grabbing. None of my dogs came ready trained, most came with many problems thanks to bad training, all never come when called at first even from the garden. If I call my dog in and they don't come, I close the door and wait for them to come to the door, I open the door, if my dog runs off I close the door and I keep doing this until my dog walks in, as they are coming in I give them a VERY high reward treat. It doesn't take many goes at this for my dogs to come as soon as I call when they are outside.

[emmabeth]

I do the same with my dogs outside too - if they dont come in when called the door is shut. If they do, reward.

It is rare now that any dog doesnt come in when called, Kelda occasionally has her moments because sometimes she would like me to chase her round the garden, that is a lot of fun for her. It ISNT a lot of fun for me, I cant run and she knocks me down (if she jumps or goes up on her back legs, shes taller than me!) so I wont play that game with her.

Could you fence off, using a real, solid fence, a small area around your back door, the size of a normal back yard, or even smaller.

Then you can let your dogs out there off lead and practice them coming in, but know they are definitely safe if you do have to shut the door on one because she isnt responding? That would also allow you to give your dogs some outside time without them being able to go in the front, and aggress at people going by.

Today, the importance of recall really hit home with me - somehow, (and it cannot happen again as there is now a bolt on the door as well as the normal latches), all FIVE of my dogs opened the front door and got out whilst I was asleep. I was dressed and downstairs in seconds, one had stayed home (good BOY rocky! )... four were gone.

I stood at the back door and shouted DOOOOOOOOOOGS and whistled - Kelda, Dilly adn Errol all came hurtling back indoors having been outside ... not immediately outside my house, but out, on the fields behind my house, about a quarter of a mile away (I heard them coming up the path at the back, then they went out of sight to come round the front to get in).

Unfortuately Ellie who DOESNT have a good recall (shes been here a month only) didn't come back straight away and i had to report her missing, get OH back from work to look, look myself and wait home for her to come back. So so luckily she did, and trotted straight inside.

IF i had EVER taught my dogs that a recall command means i will grab them and do things they do not like - I would very very likely have lost four or even all five of my dogs today. As it was i just had an hour of worry until Ellie came back.

[Mattie]

I have had 2 episodes like that Emma, the last was just after I got Dolly, she didn't have any recall, she opened the back door, the gate had been left open by my neighbour, and all dogs were gone. Ellie rarely moves out of the conservatory so I assumed she was still there, wrong. I called my dogs, Bonnie, Tilly came back immediately, Dolly followed the other 2 but not realising Ellie was out, she is deaf as well, I put them inside and locked the gate. Half an hour later I could hear Ellie barking, looked all over the house, no Ellie, she was at the front door waiting to be let in. She slept for 2 days after her safari.

The other was in the caravan, somehow Joe got loose, I was putting the others into the caravan but didn't shut the door properly because I was in a hurry, next all 6 dogs running round the caravans with everyone laughing. One whistle and all 6 came racing back to be given a yummy treat.

Joe had been beaten when he came back by his previous owners, he was terrified of coming back to me for 4 years, I couldn't find the key. Someone suggested using a clicker, Joe very quickly learnt that when he heard the clicker it was safe to come to me, within 10 days he was 99% reliable with recall. I didn't use the clicker as it should be used, but it worked for making Joe feel safe.

[Nettle]

Jeeeeeeepers Emms, how scary

Glad you have everyone back now. I guess Ellie knows where home is considering the short time you've had her, that is a big compliment

[GllntKnight]

can't walk very far either - if you cant walk around your property due to uneven ground (i cant walk on rough uneven grass)..

Get someone in to mow and roll a flat area?

Can't afford on fixed imcome.

Walk somewhere else, again one dog at a time.

There is no where else to walk.

Use a belt that you can clip a dog leash onto, and get a dog leash with an elasticated section (any saddler would easily make you one if you cant find one in stores, ditto a belt).

I forgot I do have the hands free set up to walk them, it's a belt with a bungee type attachment. I'll go back to that.

Using a belt and fixing the dog there means that any pull is to your middle, which is your centre of gravity, and is far far less likely (unless you are really tiny in fact i doubt it is possible for a JRT to pull you over if fixed to a belt round your waist, certainly wouldnt have me over and i am GOOD at falling down) to pull you off balance.

The elasticated section in a leash will take some of the shock out of a sudden tug and again reduce the chances of you falling or hurting yourself (or the dog).

If you just did even five minutes just up and down the road outside your house, heck take a chair out there so you can hae a rest, or get a mobility scooter (Mattie on here uses one!) this would be beneficial.

That's how her brother learned to chase cars I took them both out on the road with the hands free and every car that went by he lunged at them needless to say I don't go out on my scooter again with them. He has worn a dit path out front running back and forth with every car that goes by. We live on a very busy state road but I suppose I could take just her but he would bark and whine the whole time I'm gone and right now the doctor doesn't want me to ride until next month, had more spinal surger in February and had to wear a brace until recently so I can't ride my scoot for awhile longer.

Im going to say something about the electric fence system here - I know you wont like it. That fence would seem to be WHY your dogs are aggressive and dangerous to visitors, if they are fearful and liable to bite when they are wearing those collars then it IS doing them damage, and it does mean they are a risk to other people, if they bite someone you risk legal action and having them taken and put down.

Ditch the fence, put up a proper fence at the front of the house, or dont have them out there. TGhis WILL reduce your problems with their behaviour hugely.
emmabeth

Posts: 3887
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: Manchester
Private messageWebsite

[emmabeth]

Surely someone will come and mow you a smoother path around some of your property. YOu dont HAVE to pay for things with money - you have 4 acres of land - would no one mow it, in exchange for ooh... taking a free hay crop off it? using it as grazing for horses or something else, for using part of it as a vegetable patch? Why are you not having that land earn you money?

I live on a VERY low income, in comparison to the UK average, I live on the breadline - but what I need, i can barter for, i can save and get discount deals.

When you can use your scooter - walk ONE dog at a time and the first sessions IF you stop allowing them out front, using the electric fence system, are not going to involve walking at all, just sitting. Just SIT on yoru front step with ONE dog and a load of treats and reward the dog each time a car, a person, an animal goes past. Do that for just a few minutes each day, with each dog separately.

If you allow them to go in the front yard adn chase traffic/aggress at people going by and continue using the e-fence system to keep them contained out front you WILL NOT cure this problem. If you stop, and recondition them so that traffic/people/animals giong by = treats from you, you will fix it. The choice is yours.

[GllntKnight]

I took both dogs (one at a time)for a walk on leash they both heeled no matter which way I turned sat when I stop waited while I went to the end of the leash came when called sat in front of me and then went back into the heel position, did sit and down stay until I returned to realese them then I got bored they can do it just sometime they preferto walk me and have puled me down to my knees and they will not do any of the exercises off leash well Wilbur does somewhat but not Shiloh Maybe tomorrow I'll try the hands free leash as I need to testdrive one of my electric scooters as I'm giving it to my MIL., yeah I know doctor said he didn't want me to ride until August but I'm only going up and down the driveway. I'll wait until August to use my gas powered scoooter on the road.