The responses to my many doggy day care comments in posts regarding my often unsociable dog, have indicated that ddc is probably not the best idea for her. I am sure you are all saying, why the devil hasn't she stopped taking her to ddc when we keep advising it.
The truth is that I'm sure that she likes it. But I know that sounds like an anthropmorphic comment coming from a doting mom. She makes the same noises, little whines and jumping around on the back seat of the car, going there as she does when we go for our park walks which entail squirreling and rabbiting. This no doubt means she's in a state of arousal and excited but is it worrying excitement or healthy excitement. She seems to know routes well. I used to have a field for horses and she often came up with me there. this field is now on the way to ddc and she always waits until we get past the field parking area before she starts this whining and jumping. Similarly in the opposite direction towards the park, she sometimes comes with me to the supermarket and as soon as we go past that and it's obvious that we are going to the park, she starts whining and jumping again.
When we get to DDC she is dying to get out of the car and to the centre which is all open air and in fields with agility stuff in it and lots of ball throwing.
Sometimes there are quite a few dogs round the entrance which is like a holding area of crate size with double gates in and out of it. She is sometimes a bit hesitant about this bit because they are all round her barking. but once she's through with a dash, she will then greet and sniff some of the dogs, others she will woof away and she's through into the ball throwing area. Now it could be that the ball throwing is paramount and she will put up with the other dogs to be able to do this. If this is the case perhaps I can use the ball as the best distractor of all for keeping her engaged when other dogs are around her.
But if she is putting up with the other dogs and is not shutting down [which could be an issue I agree], she surely must be learning from the other dogs all the time and how they interact. She doesn't pile in but is usually milling round the outside of them. Isn't such observation on her part good for her in the long run? She will certainly see far more interaction with 20 odd dogs with both the pacifiers and the 'terrorists', though they don't accept really aggressive dogs there. there are far more 'nice' dogs there that she could possibly meet than she could meet on a park walk. And there is plenty of land for dogs to get away from each other. There is one little cocker that spends most of its time sitting by the gate. Now I really would be worried by that. But my dog always joins in. So from this would you say that DDC is still not a good idea for her?
Doggy Day Care
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Doggy Day Care
I can't comment on what I haven't seen.
Experience tells me that the most dedicated of staff sometimes - often - don't see what is in front of them or hear what the dog is saying. Few people know about dog behaviour from osmosis - most have to be taught - a lucky (?) few are born with dog genes - so owners should not beat themselves up if they don't see what is obvious to those of us who have the advantage of experience and training. Good owners like yourself try to piece the bits together from observation e.g. your perceptive comments on how your dog seems to be eager to go to her daycare, and appears to interact with the dogs there upon arrival.
Unless you watch for the whole day you aren't going to know.
Think of the child at nursery care - it may interact with some of the other children, it may hide all day, it may play with the toys it likes, it may seem "happy", the staff may assure you that it plays all day with all the children. But you won't know unless you stay all day and watch.
And in either case, you won't see what the child/dog is like on its own because if you stay, it has you for emotional backup - even if it does not appear to need you.
Dog or child, unless there are fights, you will be assured that all is well. Dogs and children have similar coping strategies, including "shut down" (often interpreted as "good" or "happy"), displacement, (interpreted as "playing") stereotypical ritualistic behaviour ("quiet" "amuses self") or hyper (lively play). Of course, either can be perfectly happy and interacting nicely with the others.
I would not be at all happy by the "crowd at the gate" scenario that you describe because it is a potential flashpoint, but the rest of it sounds good (poor spaniel, but that is his coping strategy - denial).
Now I plain don't know how well your dog copes and whether she is happy/unhappy. But you have flagged up that she is reactive when out with you. So while dealing with this reactiveness, some of us have suggested that the daycare option is not taken IF you are using it for socialising because it isn't working.
You are on the spot, you live with your dog, you know her so well
better than we can ever find out on a message Board.
So may I suggest stop the daycare for a few weeks, work on the other issues and when you are happy with those, try her back at daycare and see if she regresses?
Others may have useful stuff to add.
Experience tells me that the most dedicated of staff sometimes - often - don't see what is in front of them or hear what the dog is saying. Few people know about dog behaviour from osmosis - most have to be taught - a lucky (?) few are born with dog genes - so owners should not beat themselves up if they don't see what is obvious to those of us who have the advantage of experience and training. Good owners like yourself try to piece the bits together from observation e.g. your perceptive comments on how your dog seems to be eager to go to her daycare, and appears to interact with the dogs there upon arrival.
Unless you watch for the whole day you aren't going to know.
Think of the child at nursery care - it may interact with some of the other children, it may hide all day, it may play with the toys it likes, it may seem "happy", the staff may assure you that it plays all day with all the children. But you won't know unless you stay all day and watch.
And in either case, you won't see what the child/dog is like on its own because if you stay, it has you for emotional backup - even if it does not appear to need you.
Dog or child, unless there are fights, you will be assured that all is well. Dogs and children have similar coping strategies, including "shut down" (often interpreted as "good" or "happy"), displacement, (interpreted as "playing") stereotypical ritualistic behaviour ("quiet" "amuses self") or hyper (lively play). Of course, either can be perfectly happy and interacting nicely with the others.
I would not be at all happy by the "crowd at the gate" scenario that you describe because it is a potential flashpoint, but the rest of it sounds good (poor spaniel, but that is his coping strategy - denial).
Now I plain don't know how well your dog copes and whether she is happy/unhappy. But you have flagged up that she is reactive when out with you. So while dealing with this reactiveness, some of us have suggested that the daycare option is not taken IF you are using it for socialising because it isn't working.
You are on the spot, you live with your dog, you know her so well
better than we can ever find out on a message Board.So may I suggest stop the daycare for a few weeks, work on the other issues and when you are happy with those, try her back at daycare and see if she regresses?
Others may have useful stuff to add.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Doggy Day Care
as the person who suggested giving doggy day care a bit of a break, let me share with you how I have come to make such a suggestion.
I have a VERY reactive dog (though doing much better), I used to take him to the dog park so he could run free and be around other dogs hoping it would help him. It didn't. I too also thought he was ok with the experience. He seemed excited about going to the Dog park, he whined in what I took to be good excitement as we got closer. Once there and out of the car he pull on the leash trying to get to the other dogs quickly all while waging his tail.
Once in the dog park, he had to deal with rough play he didn't enjoy and or being "mobbed" by a bunch of other dogs often larger them him. being unlearned, I left him to deal with this. It was too much for him and the other dogs did not back off and none of the few confident and (rare) behaved dogs at the park stepped in. they were too busy playing fetch or something long those lines with their people.
At this stage in my learning, I was operating under the thought, he just needs to learn to "deal" with it and or stand up a bit for him self. both not helpful thought process for a low confident dog when dealing with what he is most low confident with. Other dogs. And standing up for him self can lead to behaviors you really do not want your dog learning and making a habit of.
Finally a trainer/behaviorist I respected and trusted got through my thick skull that I was not helping him by taking him to the dog park. I committed to just 1 week of going places other then the dog park. I deliberately took him places he would not have to deal with other dogs or at least just the odd dog or two. In one week, I saw a huge difference in him. he was still as reactive as ever at this point when we encountered a dog, but when no dogs were around he was much more attentive to me and unlike when we would leave the dog park, he didn't want the outing to end. Unlike when leaving dog park he resisted getting back into the car. So after one week of no dog park we went back. I swear to you on a stack of Bibles, he "asked" to leave after 5 minutes. which for him means he went on his hind legs and pawed at me with his front paws and let me put his leash back on him IN the dog park and lead out out. soon as we were out, body language relaxed and he was happily walking beside me and exploring. It was only after I stopped using the dog park as my dogs primary and pretty much only means of recreation he started dealing with other dogs while on leash out walking in a much calmer state.
One of the problems with dog park and doggy day care in my opinion, is like when on leash dogs are without options and dependent on us humans to pickup on all the things they do and step in. which generally does not happen. leaving a low confident dog to have to deal with situations they are not really equipped emotionally for.
I can only comment off what you share and my own experience. But I would still urge you to do a little experiment of not using doggy day care if your only reason is socialization and see how your dog does. Even my dog still wants to go up and say hi and be around other dogs sometimes, but he seems to only need seconds to a few minutes before he is done with them and wants to move on. Kind of reminds me of one of my kids in younger years. beg to have a friend come over, then after about 30 minutes was all done with social time and wanted to be left alone again.
Based on your comments, asking questions, trying to make accurate observations of your dogs body language/signals, reading books etc, you sound a bit like me. This is all good stuff, keep it up. more you learn, more you ask, the better you can help your dog. the key though is to set aside what you emotionally wish for you dog and work with and accept who your dog is and what they are able to do. You both will be much happier. It's hard, I know. I so badly want my dog to be able to participate in lure course racing because he so loves to run and to be able to participate in some "agility" type events designed for terriers. both I believe would be good outlets for him. But there is question as to if he can handle being around a bunch of highly excited dogs at these events. Who knows what the future holds, but for now these wishes I have for for my dog are not possible.
I have a VERY reactive dog (though doing much better), I used to take him to the dog park so he could run free and be around other dogs hoping it would help him. It didn't. I too also thought he was ok with the experience. He seemed excited about going to the Dog park, he whined in what I took to be good excitement as we got closer. Once there and out of the car he pull on the leash trying to get to the other dogs quickly all while waging his tail.
Once in the dog park, he had to deal with rough play he didn't enjoy and or being "mobbed" by a bunch of other dogs often larger them him. being unlearned, I left him to deal with this. It was too much for him and the other dogs did not back off and none of the few confident and (rare) behaved dogs at the park stepped in. they were too busy playing fetch or something long those lines with their people.
At this stage in my learning, I was operating under the thought, he just needs to learn to "deal" with it and or stand up a bit for him self. both not helpful thought process for a low confident dog when dealing with what he is most low confident with. Other dogs. And standing up for him self can lead to behaviors you really do not want your dog learning and making a habit of.
Finally a trainer/behaviorist I respected and trusted got through my thick skull that I was not helping him by taking him to the dog park. I committed to just 1 week of going places other then the dog park. I deliberately took him places he would not have to deal with other dogs or at least just the odd dog or two. In one week, I saw a huge difference in him. he was still as reactive as ever at this point when we encountered a dog, but when no dogs were around he was much more attentive to me and unlike when we would leave the dog park, he didn't want the outing to end. Unlike when leaving dog park he resisted getting back into the car. So after one week of no dog park we went back. I swear to you on a stack of Bibles, he "asked" to leave after 5 minutes. which for him means he went on his hind legs and pawed at me with his front paws and let me put his leash back on him IN the dog park and lead out out. soon as we were out, body language relaxed and he was happily walking beside me and exploring. It was only after I stopped using the dog park as my dogs primary and pretty much only means of recreation he started dealing with other dogs while on leash out walking in a much calmer state.
One of the problems with dog park and doggy day care in my opinion, is like when on leash dogs are without options and dependent on us humans to pickup on all the things they do and step in. which generally does not happen. leaving a low confident dog to have to deal with situations they are not really equipped emotionally for.
I can only comment off what you share and my own experience. But I would still urge you to do a little experiment of not using doggy day care if your only reason is socialization and see how your dog does. Even my dog still wants to go up and say hi and be around other dogs sometimes, but he seems to only need seconds to a few minutes before he is done with them and wants to move on. Kind of reminds me of one of my kids in younger years. beg to have a friend come over, then after about 30 minutes was all done with social time and wanted to be left alone again.
Based on your comments, asking questions, trying to make accurate observations of your dogs body language/signals, reading books etc, you sound a bit like me. This is all good stuff, keep it up. more you learn, more you ask, the better you can help your dog. the key though is to set aside what you emotionally wish for you dog and work with and accept who your dog is and what they are able to do. You both will be much happier. It's hard, I know. I so badly want my dog to be able to participate in lure course racing because he so loves to run and to be able to participate in some "agility" type events designed for terriers. both I believe would be good outlets for him. But there is question as to if he can handle being around a bunch of highly excited dogs at these events. Who knows what the future holds, but for now these wishes I have for for my dog are not possible.
Re: Doggy Day Care
Jacksdad [btw are you a bloke then being a dad?], I am so pleased you shared your experiences with me as they do so mirror mine. She is keen to get home from DDC or at least seeing me. She'll break off from ball catching or whatever and race up to the gate so that tells me something now. She is more hesitant about getting into the car when we are about to come home from our park walks. Our park is a gorgeous place, woodland, scrubland, fields with wild ponies and is bang in the centre of suburbia and dogs are mostly off lead unless there is an issue with them. We do so love our park walks and she spends most of the time dashing in the woods after squirrels and in the scrubland after rabbits, hence my muzzle question on another post. So I'm going to do what you suggest and see how it goes. She was probably 'flooded' at ddc for a couple of months in Oct/Nov when I had a foot operation and couldn't walk her so it was for exercise and socialisation then. She seemed to lose weight and I put it down to eternally playing ball. In hindsight it may have been worry and stress as well as additional exercise.
We had a lovely walk yesterday in the park. I tried distraction with ball but it didn't work. I tried it when we met a collie who cut across our path about 25 yards ahead. Dulcie stopped and looked at it, started to move in its direction but returned to me when I called her and then ignored it. She took no notice of me bouncing the ball but, as I said returned when I called her to me.
We met a bouncy collie full on with a runner owner, collie seemed to turn a couple of cartwheels then came over to Dulcie, they both sniffed and moved round in a circle, then when I called, Dulcie came to me and we both went in opposite directions. The runner evidently had another dog who hadn't followed her so she returned and passed us from the rear with the collie again and Dulcie looked interested in it and would have bounded after her, but I called her again and she immediately came back to me. Then the missing dog appeared and runner and two dogs came towards us again, Dulcie looking but taking no notice, missing dog, a retriever nearly stopped but decided to keep up with her runner owner. All this was happening within two or three yards of Dulcie. So I was really pleased with how she behaved.
We had a lovely walk yesterday in the park. I tried distraction with ball but it didn't work. I tried it when we met a collie who cut across our path about 25 yards ahead. Dulcie stopped and looked at it, started to move in its direction but returned to me when I called her and then ignored it. She took no notice of me bouncing the ball but, as I said returned when I called her to me.
We met a bouncy collie full on with a runner owner, collie seemed to turn a couple of cartwheels then came over to Dulcie, they both sniffed and moved round in a circle, then when I called, Dulcie came to me and we both went in opposite directions. The runner evidently had another dog who hadn't followed her so she returned and passed us from the rear with the collie again and Dulcie looked interested in it and would have bounded after her, but I called her again and she immediately came back to me. Then the missing dog appeared and runner and two dogs came towards us again, Dulcie looking but taking no notice, missing dog, a retriever nearly stopped but decided to keep up with her runner owner. All this was happening within two or three yards of Dulcie. So I was really pleased with how she behaved.
Re: Doggy Day Care
You should be proud, that was good stuff.
You dog is very lucky to have you. few people put in the time to read the good books, ask questions and try and figure out what their dog is telling them. Keep it up.
You dog is very lucky to have you. few people put in the time to read the good books, ask questions and try and figure out what their dog is telling them. Keep it up.
