Hi again,
I am sure I am fast becoming the most proliflic poster on this site and I apologise for the rate at which I am firing these questions at you, but I had a rather upsetting incident with my Dobie pup last at puppy class.
I am pretty sure that it was my fault and would very much like to put it behind me and move on, but I am very upset about it and would like your reassurance as much as anything else.
The story is as follows, I took Ellie to her puppy class last night (it was her third class) and she was full of beans and desperate to play with the other puppies. I was struggling to get her attention for a while, but once I got it with her favourite food all was well, and she was absolutely brilliant. Her only fault was that she was really, really pulling me hard and I was finding it difficult to control her. As you had previously advised me to leave the harness off her for now I didn't have this with me.
As I was visibly struggling, one of the other people in the class offered to lend me her spare harness. I remarked at the time that she didn't like having it put on, but as we all had lots of treats and Ellie was very distracted by the thrill of being with the other pups, I was persuaded that she may not object too much. Anyway we put it on her without any real fuss as she was too busy sniffing at horse poo and all was well for about 20 mins or so and she didn't seem to object to it.
Towards the end of the class I crouched down to praise her for something and as I did so she grabbed the clip-on treat bag I had attached to my trousers. I then stood upright and took the treat bag out of her mouth (as I have done on may occasions before without any trouble) to which her response was to jump up at me and bite at my trousers. At this stage I was not at all concerned, she has snatched the treat bag off me before and also jumped up and pulled at my clothing before, which I just put down to overexcitement.
However, on this occasion I pulled her away from me by pulling on her lead. This seemed to trigger her off. She then began really biting at me which went on for what seemed like forever and she also was growling for the first time whilst doing this. I was only able to get her to stop with the assistance of someone else in the class and the first thing we did was take the harness off her. She immediately calmed down.
So I guess its pretty obvious really isn't it? I think that the tug on the harness after the first bite shocked her and she felt threatened / shocked by it (?) I also suspect that the biting & growling that followed was probably out of fear in an 'arrrrrrrrrrgh get this off me' sort of way? Could you please let me know what you think?
I realise now that I really shouldn't have let anyone put a harness on her in this situation but I had thought that her only objection to it was the process of putting it on. I suppose what I really want to know is that she wasn't just 'having a go at me' for another reason or generally being aggressive. I really truly don't think this is the case as she has never been aggressive before and is really sweet and affectionate most of the time. I think that the incident has firstly shocked me and secondly really upset me as I hate the thought of her being aggressive towards me.
Finally, should this ever happen again (although I will not be using a harness on her in this situation again, if ever) what do I do, as I have no opportunity to walk away from her, yelping doesn't work with her and I can't just ignore her as she really hurts.
Your help would really be appreciated on this one.
Puppy class incident
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
It sounds to me very much like she just 'boiled over' there, such a high stress environment, so much going on, she starts biting and you use the lead and harness to prevent her doing that and shes got like 'wheel spin', shes trapped cant do anything and neeeeeeeeeeeds to do something and and and RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR.....
Yeah?
Mistakes happen, dont beat yourself up, thats NOT what I would have expected either, for most dogs harnesses make them feel more secure, for yours I think it makes her feel trapped.
Shes not taking it out on you because she hates you or because shes nasty, you just happened to be 'there' and she was focussed on you at the time.
Remind me what sort of harness you use? I am wondering if its not comfortable for her perhaps.
My first thought is, does she object to being held (dont try it if you dont know though, theres a battle you dont want to start), firmly around her body?
I dont know *that* much about it, but i think Ttouch may help her, Ttouch can help with frustration, and with body awareness and feeling anxious or insecure, or trapped and a whole lot of other things.
http://www.ttouch.com/whyTTouch.shtml
I think when she gets bitey also, you need a less confrontational way of stopping her... if its in a class situation then instead of trying to remove her mouth from your clothing or treat bag, just get up and walk away with a toy and offer her that, perhaps a ragger for a game with that, which may help diffuse situations when she is very frustrated.
You obviously cant use the walking away and leaving her, but what you can do by walking away WITH her is to distance yourselves from whats going on, change the 'topic' and do something different.
Hth
Em
Yeah?
Mistakes happen, dont beat yourself up, thats NOT what I would have expected either, for most dogs harnesses make them feel more secure, for yours I think it makes her feel trapped.
Shes not taking it out on you because she hates you or because shes nasty, you just happened to be 'there' and she was focussed on you at the time.
Remind me what sort of harness you use? I am wondering if its not comfortable for her perhaps.
My first thought is, does she object to being held (dont try it if you dont know though, theres a battle you dont want to start), firmly around her body?
I dont know *that* much about it, but i think Ttouch may help her, Ttouch can help with frustration, and with body awareness and feeling anxious or insecure, or trapped and a whole lot of other things.
http://www.ttouch.com/whyTTouch.shtml
I think when she gets bitey also, you need a less confrontational way of stopping her... if its in a class situation then instead of trying to remove her mouth from your clothing or treat bag, just get up and walk away with a toy and offer her that, perhaps a ragger for a game with that, which may help diffuse situations when she is very frustrated.
You obviously cant use the walking away and leaving her, but what you can do by walking away WITH her is to distance yourselves from whats going on, change the 'topic' and do something different.
Hth
Em
Re: Puppy class incident
You know what? My pup does this sort of thing all the time. Like you, I was really nervous about her possible aggression, etc, etc.Ocelot0411 wrote:
Towards the end of the class I crouched down to praise her for something and as I did so she grabbed the clip-on treat bag I had attached to my trousers. I then stood upright and took the treat bag out of her mouth (as I have done on may occasions before without any trouble) to which her response was to jump up at me and bite at my trousers. At this stage I was not at all concerned, she has snatched the treat bag off me before and also jumped up and pulled at my clothing before, which I just put down to overexcitement.
However, on this occasion I pulled her away from me by pulling on her lead. This seemed to trigger her off. She then began really biting at me which went on for what seemed like forever and she also was growling for the first time whilst doing this. I was only able to get her to stop with the assistance of someone else in the class and the first thing we did was take the harness off her. She immediately calmed down.
My pup will always start off jumping at me and nipping on my clothes all happy-like. Should I try to tell her to stop or push her off of me, she gets *really* mad. I'll get the growling, the nipping, and I've even gotten a couple of snarls from her. It's like she's telling me, "Don't tell me no! I want to play! I want to play RIGHT NOW!"
I have tried about a million and one things to get her to stop when she gets all bratty. The best one I've tried so far is to start shooting commands at her. I'll be all, "Sit!....Good girl!" "Down....good girl! Roll over....Good girl" So far, it's the best distraction I've found for her. A lot of people have said to try to re-direct her with a toy when she's like that, but it has literally no effect on her. However, she will almost automatically perform her commands....even if she does them a half hazardly. By the time I've done a round of commands with her, she usually runs off.
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Ocelot0411
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am
Wow, thanks guys, I feel a lot better now 
. Emmabeth I think you hit the nail on the head with the 'boiling over' bit. Until recently Ellie was very shy around other dogs and only discovered for the first time about a fortnight ago, that other dogs could be a source of play. She has a couple of favourite little friends in the class and on the evening in particular she began to 'bite back' for the first time ever. Usually she is very submissive with other dogs and flips on her back almost the minute she sees them. However, she has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of weeks (literally) and she is now starting to play as boisterously as the other pups. I am actually quite pleased about this as a) I think she really enjoys it, b) it shows that her confidence is growing and c) other dogs will teach her bite inhibition probably better than I can.
She was incredibly excited all the way through the class and very good considering, especially as Dobies are well known for their excitability. I would therefore agree with you that the treat bag incident was just enough to push her over the edge!
As for the harness, it wasn't like mine at all. I have just bought the Halti body harness which I had seen had been recommended on this site. As you know, this is what I would describe as a 'static' harness, as once its on it doesn't get any tighter or move in any way. The one I was leant however wasn't like this. Firstly it went around her neck and then separated with one strap going under each front leg and then joining up to the back of the harness though two metal loops. I guess that the effect of this would have been when I pulled the lead it pulled her under her legs and felt more restrictive. This probably freaked her out as she will never have experienced this before, then mix that with a slightly over-stimulated pup and BANG!!!
She is not sensitive to being touched or held, quite the opposite in fact as she is very tactile and loves to be cuddled, by which I been with both arms huggy bear style! But I did buy her a car harness when I first got her which boy oh boy she hated with a passion. I had the same battle to get it on her as I do with the Halti and whilst sat on the back seat of the car in her harness she chewed right through it rendering it useless. So I guess she doesn't like harnesses. Still I suppose its silly that I should expect her to just accept it as it takes time for a horse to accept a saddle and bridle, so I suppose the same should apply to dogs and harnesses. So for now I am going to go back to your original advice on the harness front and who knows, with a bit of luck I may not even need it again if I can train her not to pull.
Thanks for all your help.
. Emmabeth I think you hit the nail on the head with the 'boiling over' bit. Until recently Ellie was very shy around other dogs and only discovered for the first time about a fortnight ago, that other dogs could be a source of play. She has a couple of favourite little friends in the class and on the evening in particular she began to 'bite back' for the first time ever. Usually she is very submissive with other dogs and flips on her back almost the minute she sees them. However, she has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of weeks (literally) and she is now starting to play as boisterously as the other pups. I am actually quite pleased about this as a) I think she really enjoys it, b) it shows that her confidence is growing and c) other dogs will teach her bite inhibition probably better than I can.She was incredibly excited all the way through the class and very good considering, especially as Dobies are well known for their excitability. I would therefore agree with you that the treat bag incident was just enough to push her over the edge!
As for the harness, it wasn't like mine at all. I have just bought the Halti body harness which I had seen had been recommended on this site. As you know, this is what I would describe as a 'static' harness, as once its on it doesn't get any tighter or move in any way. The one I was leant however wasn't like this. Firstly it went around her neck and then separated with one strap going under each front leg and then joining up to the back of the harness though two metal loops. I guess that the effect of this would have been when I pulled the lead it pulled her under her legs and felt more restrictive. This probably freaked her out as she will never have experienced this before, then mix that with a slightly over-stimulated pup and BANG!!!
She is not sensitive to being touched or held, quite the opposite in fact as she is very tactile and loves to be cuddled, by which I been with both arms huggy bear style! But I did buy her a car harness when I first got her which boy oh boy she hated with a passion. I had the same battle to get it on her as I do with the Halti and whilst sat on the back seat of the car in her harness she chewed right through it rendering it useless. So I guess she doesn't like harnesses. Still I suppose its silly that I should expect her to just accept it as it takes time for a horse to accept a saddle and bridle, so I suppose the same should apply to dogs and harnesses. So for now I am going to go back to your original advice on the harness front and who knows, with a bit of luck I may not even need it again if I can train her not to pull.
Thanks for all your help.
Ahhhhh.....
I think the answer lies a lot in the harness. That kind of harness could quite well have hurt her - imagine thin string pulled tight under your armpits..... OUCH!
So dog boiling over, and suddenly OUCH and shes just learned to bite back...... bingo!
Dont use that kind of harness, get her to associate her own harness iwth pleasant things but as you say, if she learns to walk nicely on the lead without, then thats fine.
Ttouch would help with her excitement, and as Calin says, distracting with doing something different is always good (Calin it works because you are fulfilling her need to DO something, when you just push her off she 'pushes' back... because she neeeeeeds to do something, so pick a something that you like!).
Em
I think the answer lies a lot in the harness. That kind of harness could quite well have hurt her - imagine thin string pulled tight under your armpits..... OUCH!
So dog boiling over, and suddenly OUCH and shes just learned to bite back...... bingo!
Dont use that kind of harness, get her to associate her own harness iwth pleasant things but as you say, if she learns to walk nicely on the lead without, then thats fine.
Ttouch would help with her excitement, and as Calin says, distracting with doing something different is always good (Calin it works because you are fulfilling her need to DO something, when you just push her off she 'pushes' back... because she neeeeeeds to do something, so pick a something that you like!).
Em