pack behaviour and socialising

[suttonsue]

I have been taking my dog to doggy day care, not for looking after in my absence so much as for her socialising as she can be a little fear aggressive. Each time we have gone [a couple of times a week] she has been excitedly whining/whittering in the car all down the road leading to it.

However one of the assistants there has now left who always got on well with my dog and she doesn't seem to be quite so excited as she used to be. This lady is now taking a few dogs at her home but is restricted as to how many she can have. At the day care centre there were around 20 - 30 dogs. She has offered to take my dog but there will only be about 7 dogs there. My question is - will her socialising go back a step if she is with a strong small pack? She has been used to new dogs coming and going in the day care centre so has had to be on her toes most of the time. She loves playing ball and this lady did a lot of that, now it seems it's more like a dog minders centre than a stimulating environment. She will get the stimulation at the lady's place but I'm worried that she won't get the 'forced' socialising that she has had to have at the day care centre. She doesn't really need to go anywhere because I'm at home and we have plenty of walks on the days that she doesn't go to day care. It is purely for the socialising aspect that she goes.

I would be grateful for any input, thanks

[Mattie]

Putting a fear aggressive dog into a dog care situation can make the problem worse not better, you are flooding your dog, flooded dogs close down to cope with the situation. Dogs need more than just running round together, this time should be structured, they should be given things to do like throwing a ball for them. Dogs left to their own devices, like children, will get up to mischief.

As long as my dogs are happy, can understand dog language then I wouldn't send them anywhere, I would keep the dog with me and do things with my dog.

[Fundog]

Mattie is right; the large daycare center is no longer (and doubtful if it ever was) a fun or safe haven for your dog. You have to do what you feel is best for your dog, so if you really think she has bonded with that particular staff member, and would have a higher quality of life by interacting with other dogs, then it would be best to take her into the private center created by the former staff member. Otherwise, she really should not be made to go.

I have a dog who has a hard time getting to know other dogs. I take Dottie (my fear aggressor) and Annie (a social butterfly) to a very large local dog park, set in several acres of wilderness area. Dottie has plenty of room to run, which is her favorite thing to do, and once the other dogs figure out she is not comfortable with them (and with help from their owners), they leave her alone. I always warn the owners of the other dogs that Dottie simply cannot handle the intimacy of close contact, and if they ignore her grumblings, she will lunge out with her teeth bared. I do my best to avoid not only conflicts, but over-stressing Dottie by hovering and keeping my body between her and the other dogs. I also will call Dottie to me right away, if I am not able to be between them. (And I praise her for coming, and I also praise her any time she has a sniff without snapping at the other dog) In this method, Dottie is learning that I am her "safe" place, and that she can trust me to protect her and not let any other dogs hurt her-- which is exactly what she is afraid of. She is a funny girl though: I have seen that look on her face, and her little dance, that clearly says she wants to play, but then as soon as the other dog gets close enough to sniff her, she changes her mind and gets nervous. In the meanwhile, I have already seen a lot of improvement in that she does enjoy watching the other dogs play from a distance, she will "visit" with them through a fence (separate play areas), and a couple of times now, when the path got a tad crowded, she was able to rub bodies together against another dog while they were all running together, and not react at all. But for the most part, she pretty much stays close to Mama, unless she is having a run. She is content to simply watch the other dogs while Annie plays.

[suttonsue]

Thank you for your responses. If I can relay a little story ..... My friend's daughter had four dogs that lived outside in kennels and a compound. My friend has one house dog. One of the outdoor dogs then moved in with my friend and became a house dog with the other one. Now the daughter has said that since this dog has left the 'pack', the pack dogs will not allow him back in. This was really what I was trying to get an answer to. Is a small pack more insular and less friendly to outsider dogs than a larger pack. So if I moved my dog from large to small pack, is she likely to become less tolerant of other dogs on walks.

PS as a secondary question. Would you use a muzzle on walks? She does the same as Dottie does, will accept most other dogs to sniff her but it's as if she says that's enough, go away now please, and if they don't get the message she will lunge and bark and air snap at them. I think she has only every nipped one dog and that was one that came jumping all over her so she chased it away and I heard a small yelp whilst chasing. Any other time the dogs look as though their butt is curling under their legs, they are so keen to get away from her.

[Fundog]

I can't answer the "pack" question with any real authority-- I can only guess-- but I would think that it should not make any difference. Again, you really have to do what you think is best. I would sooner put my Dottie into a small "pack" of the same dogs she sees on a regular basis, than with a constantly changing large group. Dottie is the type of dog that takes time over several days, weeks, and months to accept and bond with other dogs. If she were forced into a large, group with a high turn-over, she would not cope well at all. Rather, her stress-levels would just continue to increase until her physical health broke down, and she would become very, very sick, even to death. I understand your wanting your dog to become accepting of other dogs, but this is not something you can do by forced exposure. Your dog's physical and mental health must come first and foremost. Like shy, awkward children and adult humans, dogs have these personality differences too-- sometimes we just need to learn to accept them and love them for who they are, without trying to make them something they are not. And that's just my humble opinion right there.

As for the muzzle-- that might be something worth doing (if so, be sure to use the basket muzzle, so she can still open her mouth to pant and drink water). I have not had to use one (had not even thought of it), but I have been able to exercise enough vigilance to see that no one got hurt. Simply by preventing a fight in the first place, a muzzle is not needed. When at the park, I keep Dottie's leash in my hand or pocket, and when the situation warrants it, I put the leash back on her and lead her away in the opposite direction of the other dogs. The other dog owners are good to prevent their dogs from following. Then, when Dottie has enough space, I let her off leash again so she can run. The running really helps her relieve her stress and anxiety. I also put her on leash around the water bowl. If another dog is having a drink, I keep Dottie a ways off and have her wait her turn. Then when the other dog takes off again, I let Dottie have a drink while I keep watch for other dogs coming over-- I block them until she's had enough to drink, then I lead her away.

Oh, and while we're on the subject: Yesterday Mr. Fundog and I took the girls to the dog park. (We were the only ones there at the time) A local rancher had his cattle out to graze in the area surrounding the fenced park. While we were hiking through the park, the cattle came trotting up to the fence to get a better look at us (?) A couple of the cows actually stuck their snouts through the chain link to let Dottie have a good sniff-- Dottie stuck her own snout through the fence, and they were "kissing!" I couldn't believe it. She would never do that with another dog! Come to think of it though, the rescue mentioned Dottie once escaped her kennel to go join a herd of sheep (emphasis on "join," not "chase")-- maybe Dottie just feels more comfortable with "vegetarians," lol!

[Mattie]

A lot depends on the dogs and their temperments, I had 3 bitches, last Sunday I introduced another ***** so I now have 4, they all get on well and I have not had any problems.

At one time I had 2 dogs, introduced a ***** and she wanted to kill one of my dogs, it took a lot of very good management and hard work for her to settle in but I did it. Just because I did it doesn't mean that it will work every time, as I said, it depends on the dogs.