Transitioning from Traditional to Positive Training

[Wicket]

Hi everyone!
I have two toy dogs. Both have been trained using traditional methods or a mix of both. I've started clicker training months ago with them but due to the previous methods, regular commands like Come are now poisoned cues. Do you have tips about transitioning from traditional to positive methods that I should be aware of? Thanks!

[Pawzk9]

Good for you! Understand that the change in thought process is going to be radical for both you and the dogs. "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Fisher may be a useful read for you. In my experience, many crossover dogs have a difficult time mustering the confidence to try new things, because in traditional training, creativity is discouraged and "obedience" is encouraged. It can be a great leap in faith for the dog to be willing to offer something new, and it can be an even greater leap in faith for the owner to give the dog the space to try something new. A lot of dogs - particularly crossover dogs - will need to apparently disengage to think. This is often a rather frantic sniffing - when there is nothing particularly interesting to smell. Don't mistake it for quitting. Patiently wait for them to give you something - any tiny thing - you can reinforce, and then up your rate of reinforcement when they do. Frequently a "think break" is followed by a surge in understanding. Don't help the dog too much. In my experience traditional trainers want to do the work FOR the dogs instead of waiting for them to discover the answer for themselves. Good luck, and have more fun than you've ever had with dogs. Because clicker training is MADE for that!

[Pawzk9]

Oh. . . and any cues you have poisoned, rename the behavior as something else (here instead of come, park instead of sit, etc.) but don't put a name on it until the behavior is pretty much exactly what you want. If you "name" a sloppy behavior, a sloppy behavior is what you will get.

[Mattie]

It is easier to teach them again using positive methods and different words than to change their idea of the words you use now. This is something I tell owners when their dogs have learnt that it is ok to ignore their owners when they are calling them, retrain using different words. The words don't matter, you can train them to any words as dogs don't know what the words mean until we teach them.

[emily728]

What does it mean to 'poison' a cue?

[Wicket]

What does it mean to 'poison' a cue?

If "Come" means gesturing your right arm and saying "come" but when the dog doesn't respond, you add on other body language signals or repeat the word over and over. In short, the dog ignores the repeated word or doesn't know which non-verbal cue to respond to. You can also poison it by punishing the dog when he finally comes, then he might associate you with bad things and doesn't want to come out of fear.

Good for you! Understand that the change in thought process is going to be radical for both you and the dogs. "The Thinking Dog" by Gail Fisher may be a useful read for you. In my experience, many crossover dogs have a difficult time mustering the confidence to try new things, because in traditional training, creativity is discouraged and "obedience" is encouraged. It can be a great leap in faith for the dog to be willing to offer something new, and it can be an even greater leap in faith for the owner to give the dog the space to try something new. A lot of dogs - particularly crossover dogs - will need to apparently disengage to think. This is often a rather frantic sniffing - when there is nothing particularly interesting to smell. Don't mistake it for quitting. Patiently wait for them to give you something - any tiny thing - you can reinforce, and then up your rate of reinforcement when they do. Frequently a "think break" is followed by a surge in understanding. Don't help the dog too much. In my experience traditional trainers want to do the work FOR the dogs instead of waiting for them to discover the answer for themselves. Good luck, and have more fun than you've ever had with dogs. Because clicker training is MADE for that!

I've noticed my chi-poo smells a lot while the miniature poodle is so food motivated that she just sits there, hoping for the next treat . We will be clicker training and then she finds this amazing smell and doesn't respond. I recently read Karen Pryor's books, "Reaching the Animal Mind" and "Getting Started: Clicker Training with your dog" which really helped me. Thank you for your recommendation.

It is easier to teach them again using positive methods and different words than to change their idea of the words you use now. This is something I tell owners when their dogs have learnt that it is ok to ignore their owners when they are calling them, retrain using different words. The words don't matter, you can train them to any words as dogs don't know what the words mean until we teach them.

Thanks!

[Wicket]

I've been using the clicker to reinforce "come". The Miniature Poodle gets it: My dad let her outside off leash and forgot about her. We went looking for her, calling "come" and she sped over to the house from a neighbor's yard. She's an older dog and I've found that she learns cue faster (and extremely food motivated) than my adolescent dog.

Today, I let my chi-poo out. It was drizzling rain and she was determined to smell the whole yard. I tried calling her but she continued to sniff. I repeated the cue but she wasn't listening. I brought out her leash (which she usually always comes to) but no avail. I brought out a towel since her coat and feet were now soaked but no avail. Finally, I decided to ignore her and eventually she pawed at the door, shaking. I've noticed with my chi-poo that if there's no clicker, no lure (treat or toys) than outside is too distracting. I've saying "come" + click in order to my dogs to associate the verbal cue with good things. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. Thanks!

Another issue I have is that not everybody is on the same page when it comes to training. My dad uses compulsion training (shudder), not afraid to use the "alpha roll" or yell at them; if the dogs instantly obey, he doesn't mind using brute force, even on dogs who are less than 15 pounds. My mother uses treats but very little discipline: dogs will get rewards for simply showing up (not for responding to the cue) and if my dogs aren't obeying, then it's "no" or "bad girls." With such mixed messages, I can understand why the dogs are confused. Do you have any suggestions about spreading the positive reinforcement method?

[Wicket]

EDIT: If the dogs don't instantly obey...

[Pawzk9]

I tried calling her but she continued to sniff. I repeated the cue but she wasn't listening. I brought out her leash (which she usually always comes to) but no avail. I brought out a towel since her coat and feet were now soaked but no avail. Finally, I decided to ignore her and eventually she pawed at the door, shaking. I've noticed with my chi-poo that if there's no clicker, no lure (treat or toys) than outside is too distracting. I've saying "come" + click in order to my dogs to associate the verbal cue with good things. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. Thanks

Another way to "poison" a cue is to make it meaningless. For instance if you call the dog in a situation where she has many options besides actually coming, you're telling the dog that your words are meaningless. I don't use the clicker as an attention-getter or cue, but as a marker that I like what the dog is doing this very instant. So, if the dog is sniffing, and I click that, I'm reinforcing sniffing. If she's running hard the opposite direction and I click that, I'm reinforcing running away. I would work on these skills until they are an automatic response in less distracting environments (have a look at Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall") and then when you take it to more difficult environments, set things up in your favor. Limit the dog's options. And raise criteria slowly. Also, practice "clean handling". That means your dog doesn't see your clicker before you start working, and you don't reach for your treat until the behavior (or piece of behavior) is accomplished and you've clicked. That way you are using your tools as a reward instead of a bribe, and you'll have a dog who learns to work on "faith." Just don't ask for too much faith right away. Click and treat every correct response, but don't telegraph it to the dog that you are going to.

[Mattie]

Today, I let my chi-poo out. It was drizzling rain and she was determined to smell the whole yard. I tried calling her but she continued to sniff. I repeated the cue but she wasn't listening. I brought out her leash (which she usually always comes to) but no avail. I brought out a towel since her coat and feet were now soaked but no avail. Finally, I decided to ignore her and eventually she pawed at the door, shaking. I've noticed with my chi-poo that if there's no clicker, no lure (treat or toys) than outside is too distracting. I've saying "come" + click in order to my dogs to associate the verbal cue with good things. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. Thanks!

By calling her over and over again you are teaching her that it is ok to ignore you and the command "Come", she is finding outside far more interesting and you need to change that.

This is how I teach my dogs to come in from outside, I call once, if they come they are rewarded, rewards vary depending on what I am doing and what time of the day it is. No point in using treats if they have just been fed. If my dog doesn't come IMMEDIATELY I close the door and talk to my other dogs in a high, excited voice. When my dog comes to the door, I open it, give the command as she is walking in and then give a very high reward. That could be treats, cuddle, play a game with her etc. If she doesn't come in, I close the door and carry on talking to my other dogs in a high excited voice. Eventually a dog will come in even if it is just out of curiosity, especially if they think they are missing out on nice things.

Another issue I have is that not everybody is on the same page when it comes to training. My dad uses compulsion training (shudder), not afraid to use the "alpha roll" or yell at them; if the dogs instantly obey, he doesn't mind using brute force, even on dogs who are less than 15 pounds. My mother uses treats but very little discipline: dogs will get rewards for simply showing up (not for responding to the cue) and if my dogs aren't obeying, then it's "no" or "bad girls." With such mixed messages, I can understand why the dogs are confused. Do you have any suggestions about spreading the positive reinforcement method?

The best message is to train your dogs to such a high standard with you that they have to take notice, also if you have them really good, they will be more obedient to your parents so won't get the for punishments that they are now. I don't know your dad but you could ask him how he would feel if someone walked up to him and rolled him over on the floor, how he would feel but don't ask that if you think you will get into trouble.

[Wicket]

I've had a break through! I took your advice and only said the cue once (which was hard at first) but they're now coming inside the house more quickly. I also realized that it's okay if my dogs want to sniff, as long as they don't get into anything poisonous; they're just being dogs, not trying to deliberately disobey. I had been setting them for failure and having unrealistic expectations for them.

My Poodle had for years been lunging at my hands and not wanting to "drop it" when we played fetch. Using treats and an incompatible behavior, she now drops the ball and sits, wagging her tail whenever she hears "drop it" even if I say it to the other dog. I'm so proud that she put her cues together all by herself this weekend.

Thank you for your help.

[Mattie]

Well done, it does take some adapting to at first because it is so different from traditional methods but hopefully positive training will become the traditional way one day.

[Wicket]

I've been trying to teach my Poodle "shake" as a trick, using the clicker, starting last night.(She kept pawing the lure when I attempted "lying down" so I decided to click that and use that in this trick.) I held out my fist (filled with treats) and she'll touch my wrist or fist with either paw, sometimes licking to get the treat out. When I opened up my palm and hand the clicker and treats in the other hand, she was understandably confused. I figured she'd associated the non-verbal cue of my fist as her cue to paw my hand. Am I doing this the wrong way?

I've found that I've been reverting to do my old habits if the dogs aren't responding. I'll repeat the commands or get frustrated and gently touch them into the behavior, like sit. They were doing well for about a week (without using treats or clicker) and then now the re-trained behaviors have been tampering off. How can you tell if this is extinction or if they are still learning the cue or something else?

Thanks.

[emmabeth]

I think you are just moving a bit too fast..

Go back to treat in the hand you want her to touch with her paw.. click the second she touches hand with paw and open hand and let her take the treat. If shes getting frustrated and unsure and needs her confidence boosting, click even if she just lifts her paw off the ground a little, any movement of a front paw.. and then work your way up through bigger and bigger paw movements.

Keep your sessions short and if she achieves your goal or exceeds it even if its in the first ten seconds.. quit there, big fuss go back to it again in an hour.

I wouldnt try it with the treat in a different hand or elsewhere just yet because she hasnt really figured out what shes doing yet, you need to wait until its pretty clear she knows what is earnign the click and thus the treat.

[Wicket]

I guess I'm confused if I should start off with a fist or transition from a fist to an open palm. I get the concept of clicking but sometimes the mechanics of training confuse me.