We have a 3 year old female Corgi who is a very stubborn walker and always has been. She constantly stops and looks at you, pulls back and you have to coax her to get her going. I rarely pull but I can't say never. I walk towards her with my scolding sound and this gets her going...for a few dozen feet. Sometimes she will lie on her back. If there is someone approaching from the front or rear, she wants to stop and wait to greet them. Get her going again is a pain.
She is otherwise very well trained with 3, 6 week sessions from a local kennel. I have tried coaxing her along with a spatula with peanut butter but since she is so low, it's difficult. I sometimes carry treats and give her a small piece when she walks well for a few minutes.
When we call her to the door for a walk, she comes but she walks slowly like she's being sent to the gallows. We try to call her for her walks with enthusiasm. The first half of a city block walk is clearly more frustrating that the second half where se begins to walk better and we tell her we're going home to play with her ball. We have a very large fenced in back yard where we play after walks and other times during the day with her balls and frisbee. We constantly have to encourage and praise her when we walk her to try to keep her going but then there are lots of; "Oh, no! No stopping!" When she stops it's to look around and sniff but she wants to turn around and go bak home. I have to admit, there have been a few times (not many) when we have given up and gone back.
I see other people walking their dogs, getting exercise and relieving stress. For me it's an exercise in creating stress!
Stubborn walker
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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Horace's Mum
- Posts: 1129
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:10 pm
Re: Stubborn walker
We need to work out why she doesn't want to walk. Is she worried about something outside? Has she had a bad experience on a walk? Does she just not like being on a lead - did you teach her about leads really well at the beginning or did you just put it on and expect her to follow? Could she be in pain? My boy stopped walking over the winter, refused point blank, turns out his hips were giving him a lot of pain walking on the ice. Even if she has always done this, it might be that she has something going on that makes playing tolerable because it is only for a short while, but walking she knows she has to go a fair distance and therefore doesn't want to.
I think we need to know when this really started, and go from there. Has it literally been from day one as a puppy?
I think we need to know when this really started, and go from there. Has it literally been from day one as a puppy?
Re: Stubborn walker
Im curious to know more about these training sessions at a local kennels - did you send her away on her own, and what methods did they use?
This sort of 'shutting down' type refusal behaviour, asides from very clearly being her trying to tell you something suggests to me a subdued, worried sort of dog. Is that your impression of her nature outside of walk time?
It could be pain, it could be the expectation of pain or something else unpleasant.
She clearly feels happier about going home - has anything scary ever happened outside on a walk?
When you say you use a scold her, how do you mean (sorry for the million and one questions, its really hard to gauge what folk mean when its written down, one persons scolding could be another persons verbal abuse, and again one dog may find a hard look very punishing where another couldnt give a monkeys if you shout and swear like a trooper!).
In general what is her daily routine like especially the hours before her walks, how long is she left for, how much training and games etc and what form do these take. What does she eat and when - basically anything and everything about her daily life.
This sort of 'shutting down' type refusal behaviour, asides from very clearly being her trying to tell you something suggests to me a subdued, worried sort of dog. Is that your impression of her nature outside of walk time?
It could be pain, it could be the expectation of pain or something else unpleasant.
She clearly feels happier about going home - has anything scary ever happened outside on a walk?
When you say you use a scold her, how do you mean (sorry for the million and one questions, its really hard to gauge what folk mean when its written down, one persons scolding could be another persons verbal abuse, and again one dog may find a hard look very punishing where another couldnt give a monkeys if you shout and swear like a trooper!).
In general what is her daily routine like especially the hours before her walks, how long is she left for, how much training and games etc and what form do these take. What does she eat and when - basically anything and everything about her daily life.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Stubborn walker
Thanks for your reply. The problem persists. She is clearly not afraid and she loves greeting people and other dogs. She is constantly looking behind her to see if there is anyone else on the sidewalk and if so, she wants to stop and greet them.
I take her for 2 walks per day, she is slightly overweight but not so that it would encumber her gait. I need to walk her to keep her (and me) fit. I try to mix up the routes we take in our city neighborhood which is nicely shaded and near parks. She know which way is home and only wants to go that way. I try to take 30-50 minute walks in the summer months. She just has miserable time getting started. Calling her to the door to put on her leash is a pain, but she eventually comes. Starting on the sidewalk is a pain and I have to direct her and tug (not pull) her to get going. I throw treats out occasionally but she knows if I have no treats, she will not walk.
I have found that the earlier in the morning I walk her, the easier it is to get her going. This is especially true in the summer months as she really hates the heat and returns quickly to the heating grate when she gets back to the house to soak up the AC..
We took he to three training classes which use only positive reinforcements and we went with her. She won first prize in the 'Family Companion' class. This is our first dog (since childhood) and we were really novices when she was a puppy. I'm sure we made mistakes in leash training. We must have, unless she is just plain lazy!
I take her for 2 walks per day, she is slightly overweight but not so that it would encumber her gait. I need to walk her to keep her (and me) fit. I try to mix up the routes we take in our city neighborhood which is nicely shaded and near parks. She know which way is home and only wants to go that way. I try to take 30-50 minute walks in the summer months. She just has miserable time getting started. Calling her to the door to put on her leash is a pain, but she eventually comes. Starting on the sidewalk is a pain and I have to direct her and tug (not pull) her to get going. I throw treats out occasionally but she knows if I have no treats, she will not walk.
I have found that the earlier in the morning I walk her, the easier it is to get her going. This is especially true in the summer months as she really hates the heat and returns quickly to the heating grate when she gets back to the house to soak up the AC..
We took he to three training classes which use only positive reinforcements and we went with her. She won first prize in the 'Family Companion' class. This is our first dog (since childhood) and we were really novices when she was a puppy. I'm sure we made mistakes in leash training. We must have, unless she is just plain lazy!
Re: Stubborn walker
Hmm - we can help more if you could answer the questions we asked last month..
However, I would take her to the vets for a full check in case there is any pain anywhere - dogs are brilliant at masking pain, really truly awesome at it (My deerhound walked, unaided, into a vet clinic, to be treated for bloat. She was SO stoic the vet did not believe us that she was bloating until he scoped her and saw that her stomach had twisted. When he opened her up he was ASTOUNDED that shed walked anywhere at all so bad was the twisting, she had her stomach stapled to her ribs and lost her spleen as it was too tangled and compromised to save. She should have been screaming in agony and incapable of walking).
Once that is done, walk her early morning and late evening when it is cooler - invest in a brush taht REALLY gets rid of undercoat, such as a furminator or coat king - it is amazing how much dense undercoat a relatively smooth coated dog can have and that will overheat her.
Then drop her food intake via meals, by as much as half - retain the other half to use as training treats for use only on walks. Mix these about 75% food to 25% things like cheese/hotdog, so that shes never really sure if it will be a low value kibble or a high value reward. That should keep her interest up without putting weight on her.
However, I would take her to the vets for a full check in case there is any pain anywhere - dogs are brilliant at masking pain, really truly awesome at it (My deerhound walked, unaided, into a vet clinic, to be treated for bloat. She was SO stoic the vet did not believe us that she was bloating until he scoped her and saw that her stomach had twisted. When he opened her up he was ASTOUNDED that shed walked anywhere at all so bad was the twisting, she had her stomach stapled to her ribs and lost her spleen as it was too tangled and compromised to save. She should have been screaming in agony and incapable of walking).
Once that is done, walk her early morning and late evening when it is cooler - invest in a brush taht REALLY gets rid of undercoat, such as a furminator or coat king - it is amazing how much dense undercoat a relatively smooth coated dog can have and that will overheat her.
Then drop her food intake via meals, by as much as half - retain the other half to use as training treats for use only on walks. Mix these about 75% food to 25% things like cheese/hotdog, so that shes never really sure if it will be a low value kibble or a high value reward. That should keep her interest up without putting weight on her.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Stubborn walker
She has regular check ups and I don't believe she is in pain. She really loves to walk in the winter when there is about 6" of snow she can plow through. She pulls me around the block!
This summer the problem seems to be worse. It used to be that the first 15 minutes were a problem then she'd cruise the rest of the walk. Now the entire walk is interrupted with her usual stopping and looking at me like she's saying "are you kidding me- you're making me walk?" every 20 or 30 steps.
In starting the walk, she want to choose on the direction we go from our house. If I want to go in an opposite direction I have to pick her up and direct her. On the walk, if we come to an intersection and she believes one way is the way which leads to home, she will insist on going in that direction.
This summer the problem seems to be worse. It used to be that the first 15 minutes were a problem then she'd cruise the rest of the walk. Now the entire walk is interrupted with her usual stopping and looking at me like she's saying "are you kidding me- you're making me walk?" every 20 or 30 steps.
In starting the walk, she want to choose on the direction we go from our house. If I want to go in an opposite direction I have to pick her up and direct her. On the walk, if we come to an intersection and she believes one way is the way which leads to home, she will insist on going in that direction.
Re: Stubborn walker
Hi Orion7747
Just a thought, but do you walk her on the sidewalk or on grass? It could be that the sidewalk is just too hot and her pads are hurting.
Just a thought, but do you walk her on the sidewalk or on grass? It could be that the sidewalk is just too hot and her pads are hurting.
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runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
Re: Stubborn walker
It would be helpful to go through and answer the questions from Emmabeth and Horace's Mum. Can you do this? They may seem pointless to you but you will see why they are asked when you respond.
It could well be something as simple as the sidewalk being too hot - or it could be something else (fear/anxiety) started by something and possibly made worse by your stern voice. It's not about being stubborn.
It could well be something as simple as the sidewalk being too hot - or it could be something else (fear/anxiety) started by something and possibly made worse by your stern voice. It's not about being stubborn.
Re: Stubborn walker
I thought I had. It's no to everything. She's not nervous, she loves greeting people, she is not in pain. She has regular check ups. She just doesn't want to go. She hated walking since a pup. Granted we made mistakes when we were training her. We'd throw treats down the sidewalk when she stopped not realizing it encouraged stopping. Occasionally I'll take treats and reward her when she walks. If she hesitates or stops, I'll gesture that I will throw a treat when she starts to walk again.
Re: Stubborn walker
I think there were a few more things above, specifically details about the kennels and what methods they use (could they have used aversive methods without your knowledge?),how do you scold her, what is her daily routine outside the walks,how long is she left,what does she eat etc. I couldnt see answers for these apologies if i missed it. Sorry for short reply i am reading the forum on my mobile today!emmabeth wrote:Im curious to know more about these training sessions at a local kennels - did you send her away on her own, and what methods did they use?
This sort of 'shutting down' type refusal behaviour, asides from very clearly being her trying to tell you something suggests to me a subdued, worried sort of dog. Is that your impression of her nature outside of walk time?
It could be pain, it could be the expectation of pain or something else unpleasant.
She clearly feels happier about going home - has anything scary ever happened outside on a walk?
When you say you use a scold her, how do you mean (sorry for the million and one questions, its really hard to gauge what folk mean when its written down, one persons scolding could be another persons verbal abuse, and again one dog may find a hard look very punishing where another couldnt give a monkeys if you shout and swear like a trooper!).
In general what is her daily routine like especially the hours before her walks, how long is she left for, how much training and games etc and what form do these take. What does she eat and when - basically anything and everything about her daily life.
Re: Stubborn walker
We always went with her to the training classes and they used only positive reinforcement. Choke collars were forbidden, for example.
Her daily routine is up at *;00, eats goes out in our back yard to pee, walk around 9 or 10am, hanging out until walk at 4:00, dinner at 6:00, playing in our large fenced yard with 16" balls which I buy by the case to use throughout the summer and winter. Her herding side really comes out chasing these balls! Relaxing in front of the tv until bedtime, throwing toys and playing fetch. She is well attended. My wife retired a few years ago so she not left alone for long and I teach so I'm off all summer. She is fed Atemis Weight Management food as Corgis can get stocky easily. She's a few pounds overweight. Not much.
During walks, scolds are usually vocal ( C'mon, Oh-no!) although I've been known to get frustrated and not stop walking when she does, so a bit a of forced pull occurs but I do it without words or even looking at her. Sometimes I use the Dog Whisperer's 'Chee' sound with a tap of my finger on her shoulder to get her going. There's an occasional tap on her keyser with my foot to get her going. Not a kick. Like I said, once she gets going she is better but will still insists on going down this street when I want to go straight, for example or stops every 50 feet or so and just look at me to see if am serious about walking, I guess. I stare her down until she gets going again or lately she will move quickly when I threaten to 'pick her up.' She hates being picked up. I praise her often as she walks.
Her daily routine is up at *;00, eats goes out in our back yard to pee, walk around 9 or 10am, hanging out until walk at 4:00, dinner at 6:00, playing in our large fenced yard with 16" balls which I buy by the case to use throughout the summer and winter. Her herding side really comes out chasing these balls! Relaxing in front of the tv until bedtime, throwing toys and playing fetch. She is well attended. My wife retired a few years ago so she not left alone for long and I teach so I'm off all summer. She is fed Atemis Weight Management food as Corgis can get stocky easily. She's a few pounds overweight. Not much.
During walks, scolds are usually vocal ( C'mon, Oh-no!) although I've been known to get frustrated and not stop walking when she does, so a bit a of forced pull occurs but I do it without words or even looking at her. Sometimes I use the Dog Whisperer's 'Chee' sound with a tap of my finger on her shoulder to get her going. There's an occasional tap on her keyser with my foot to get her going. Not a kick. Like I said, once she gets going she is better but will still insists on going down this street when I want to go straight, for example or stops every 50 feet or so and just look at me to see if am serious about walking, I guess. I stare her down until she gets going again or lately she will move quickly when I threaten to 'pick her up.' She hates being picked up. I praise her often as she walks.
Re: Stubborn walker
Hi Orion
I'm new to this board myself but your post has been playing on my mind the last few days - the reason being that it all sound so familiar.
I hope you can take what I'm saying in the best possible way if only to help your little dog and your own sanity. The reason I feel I can comment if that I think I've been where you are now and my dog was a more extreme version of yours.
It won't do your dog any harm if you treat her like she's fearful and she's not but it will do her harm if she is and you treat her like she's stubborn. Some of the things you've mentioned do make it sound like fear, such as lying on her back. Dog communication is often very subtle and we can miss things such as licking, head turning, curving and all the other little signals they use to show how they feel . You could check out a woman called Turid Rugaas who has done some amazing things on dog communication. I personally have found her book " on talking terms with dogs - calming signals" invaluable in understanding dogs.
You say she moves well in the winter but not the summer, I don't know what it's like where you live but I know that here the world is so much busier with lots more people, dogs, traffic etc at this time of year and I have to walk much earlier in the day so that my dog does not get too stressed or overstimulated. This might sound crazy but go outside your house and if you're too embarrassed to actually lie down on the ground squat kneel or crouch as low as you can - this is what your dog's view of the world is. Now imagine you needed to take a minute to deal with all this but every time you did King Kong (as in size difference I'm not saying you're a massive ape) seemed to be threatening you (dogs don't understand our words only our actions and our tone of voice).
The CM sound is useless and the only reason it "works" for him is that he has paired it with an aversive "touch" and I don't think that even he would use it to get an insecure dog to walk. Aversive training simply suppresses a behaviour and does nothing to address the underlying issue. It took me awhile to understand that my dog needed an ally not a boss as she was feeling unsure and this was why she wanted to stop and greet everybody else in the world as they were all sweet on her while I was trying to force her to move when she was not comfortable with it.
Something that I found to work really well apart from being happy and calm was what I call the "are you ready" game. You'll need to make it a nice thing at home before you try it on walks.
What I did was say "are you ready?" in a happy tone of voice and then throw a little piece of kibble along the ground so that it rolled a short distance from her. You can gradually increase the distance the food travels past her. Keep doing this over the course of a few days at home until you can see her interested and waiting for the food to go past her. Now you can try it on walks however you will need to go back to throwing in only a very short distance in front of her - inches rather then feet. Praise her when shes eating in and happily throw another piece along the ground when she's done. Make sure to say your cue as you throw the food. I would not try to make her go very far when you start this even just a few feet down the road and the back home. You could also bring a cool drink of water for her if you're concerned about the heat - my dog loves this and when she's had her drink she waits for me to dip my hand in the water a stroke her with it to help cool her though I know not every dog would enjoy this. Fearful dogs are thirsty dogs - think about the dry mouth you get when you're afraid!
The food should come out of her daily ration and you can increase the amount of stimulation/games at home if you're worried about her weight and exercise level. If you want a longer walk for yourself just leave her at home and go for it - this is what I do to keep my own walking urge under control.
The main things to remember it to remain upbeat and very very patient. So keep the walks short and sweet untill she's more comfortable as it can be a challenge when you just want to get on with it!
Good luck,
Wuf.
I'm new to this board myself but your post has been playing on my mind the last few days - the reason being that it all sound so familiar.
I hope you can take what I'm saying in the best possible way if only to help your little dog and your own sanity. The reason I feel I can comment if that I think I've been where you are now and my dog was a more extreme version of yours.
It won't do your dog any harm if you treat her like she's fearful and she's not but it will do her harm if she is and you treat her like she's stubborn. Some of the things you've mentioned do make it sound like fear, such as lying on her back. Dog communication is often very subtle and we can miss things such as licking, head turning, curving and all the other little signals they use to show how they feel . You could check out a woman called Turid Rugaas who has done some amazing things on dog communication. I personally have found her book " on talking terms with dogs - calming signals" invaluable in understanding dogs.
You say she moves well in the winter but not the summer, I don't know what it's like where you live but I know that here the world is so much busier with lots more people, dogs, traffic etc at this time of year and I have to walk much earlier in the day so that my dog does not get too stressed or overstimulated. This might sound crazy but go outside your house and if you're too embarrassed to actually lie down on the ground squat kneel or crouch as low as you can - this is what your dog's view of the world is. Now imagine you needed to take a minute to deal with all this but every time you did King Kong (as in size difference I'm not saying you're a massive ape) seemed to be threatening you (dogs don't understand our words only our actions and our tone of voice).
The CM sound is useless and the only reason it "works" for him is that he has paired it with an aversive "touch" and I don't think that even he would use it to get an insecure dog to walk. Aversive training simply suppresses a behaviour and does nothing to address the underlying issue. It took me awhile to understand that my dog needed an ally not a boss as she was feeling unsure and this was why she wanted to stop and greet everybody else in the world as they were all sweet on her while I was trying to force her to move when she was not comfortable with it.
Something that I found to work really well apart from being happy and calm was what I call the "are you ready" game. You'll need to make it a nice thing at home before you try it on walks.
What I did was say "are you ready?" in a happy tone of voice and then throw a little piece of kibble along the ground so that it rolled a short distance from her. You can gradually increase the distance the food travels past her. Keep doing this over the course of a few days at home until you can see her interested and waiting for the food to go past her. Now you can try it on walks however you will need to go back to throwing in only a very short distance in front of her - inches rather then feet. Praise her when shes eating in and happily throw another piece along the ground when she's done. Make sure to say your cue as you throw the food. I would not try to make her go very far when you start this even just a few feet down the road and the back home. You could also bring a cool drink of water for her if you're concerned about the heat - my dog loves this and when she's had her drink she waits for me to dip my hand in the water a stroke her with it to help cool her though I know not every dog would enjoy this. Fearful dogs are thirsty dogs - think about the dry mouth you get when you're afraid!
The food should come out of her daily ration and you can increase the amount of stimulation/games at home if you're worried about her weight and exercise level. If you want a longer walk for yourself just leave her at home and go for it - this is what I do to keep my own walking urge under control.
The main things to remember it to remain upbeat and very very patient. So keep the walks short and sweet untill she's more comfortable as it can be a challenge when you just want to get on with it!
Good luck,
Wuf.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
Re: Stubborn walker
I have just one additional thought for you on this that is pretty simplistic. I also have a corgi (mine's a puppy) and Iive in the southeastern US where we have had endless days of at or above 90 degree weather. It didn't take long for me to discover that Piper hates the heat! As soon as the day heats up, she resists going out in the back yard, and even once there, she doesn't want to play, train or explore. She'll just lay down on the patio looking very sad a pathetic until I let her back into the A/C. Inside (and early mornings outside) she's very active and playful. Last week we had one day of a little 'cold snap' of temps in the low 80's with low humidity and she was fine playing and being active outside that day.
Wondering if intolerance to heat was just her or a corgi trait, I went on several corgi forums and lo and behold - it's a corgi trait! So while your dog very well might have all or some of the other issues mentioned by other posters that cause her to not want to walk during the day, it's possible (since you mention that she walks better in the winter, and early in the morning when it's cooler, than in the summer) that she simply hates the heat.
If so, an easy fix is to walk her early in the day or even just before dusk (though in my neck of the woods, dusk is still quite hot and muggy, mornings are much better). Soon enough the cooler days will be here and she may be a much more willing walking buddy.
Wondering if intolerance to heat was just her or a corgi trait, I went on several corgi forums and lo and behold - it's a corgi trait! So while your dog very well might have all or some of the other issues mentioned by other posters that cause her to not want to walk during the day, it's possible (since you mention that she walks better in the winter, and early in the morning when it's cooler, than in the summer) that she simply hates the heat.
If so, an easy fix is to walk her early in the day or even just before dusk (though in my neck of the woods, dusk is still quite hot and muggy, mornings are much better). Soon enough the cooler days will be here and she may be a much more willing walking buddy.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Re: Stubborn walker
Thanks, I'll give this a try. I might mention that getting her going for a walk in the house is a chore. In a positive tone we say 'let's go' but he just sits there looking at you. If I use a more stern voice she reluctantly comes to you but walks like she's going to the gallows. She is well trained and will come, stay, stop, sit, lie down, on command. If I suggest we go out side (backyard) to play ball, she runs to the door! If we say 'let's go to the car,' she jumps on the door to get out and drags us to the car.
When she gets laggy well into the walk, saying 'let's go home' gets her going temporarily. But what is perhaps telling in all of this, we can be at the end of a 30 minute walk, ONE house away from our and our house is clearly in sight.....and she stops and stands there looking at me! That's not stubborn?
I don't know about fear. Yes, sometimes when she greets people so enthusiastically I think she's looking to be rescued but cars go by pretty regularly and she ignores them. She doesn't lay down much anymore but it's very difficult at times to get her going. Last October, there was a decorated house on our street which intrigued her. So, for weeks I was able to say 'let's go see the house' and she would eagerly leave our house.
This seems to go in cycles in terms of severity. But she is never what I would say a happy walker and I wish I could enjoy the walks more becasue I regard them as an important part of my exercise routine as well.
When she gets laggy well into the walk, saying 'let's go home' gets her going temporarily. But what is perhaps telling in all of this, we can be at the end of a 30 minute walk, ONE house away from our and our house is clearly in sight.....and she stops and stands there looking at me! That's not stubborn?
I don't know about fear. Yes, sometimes when she greets people so enthusiastically I think she's looking to be rescued but cars go by pretty regularly and she ignores them. She doesn't lay down much anymore but it's very difficult at times to get her going. Last October, there was a decorated house on our street which intrigued her. So, for weeks I was able to say 'let's go see the house' and she would eagerly leave our house.
This seems to go in cycles in terms of severity. But she is never what I would say a happy walker and I wish I could enjoy the walks more becasue I regard them as an important part of my exercise routine as well.
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ladybug1802
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
- Location: Surrey
Re: Stubborn walker
A dog with fear issues doesnt necessarily have fear of everything. Cars going by for example, wont be a fearful thing, but humans may be. I find it quite telling that early on you said she would keep lookling behind her on the sidewalk...that to me indicates that she is very wary and anxious. Of course this may not be the root of all her problems - i dont know! My dog has fear issues of strangers for example, and he is a lot better now, only not tolerating strangers staring at him or bending over to touch him.....but even at his worst he was never scared of cars/lorries going by etc. So your dog may not have fear issues per say, but it may well be she is just rather anxious in generral...whcih may explain the looking behind her on the sidewalk yet being happy to greet people. I am not sure - just wondering really!
