Stubborn walker

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runlikethewind
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by runlikethewind »

I'll pass the others to enlighten you as to Milan's methods........................................... and why this could be contributing to your dog's reticence to walk with you. I don't have much time at the mo but get quite upset when I hear people still using his aversive methods and don't realise the fallout.
orion7747
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by orion7747 »

No, I do know she doesn't fear people. She'd go with anyone. If she sees someone on a walk, she'll pull to get to them and greet them. And she knows that sometimes people are behind her so she checks now and then to see if anyone is there. If so, she wants to stop and wait for them to say hi.
runlikethewind
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by runlikethewind »

I have some ideas but they will mean you will have you get your own extra walking 'fix' without her for the time being whilst you work on getting her happier.

Please don't take this the wrong way BUT I sense she is eager to meet other people but is not eager to be with you and I suspect this may be to do with your mixed methods of rewarding her and punishing her (I don't mean punishing in the sense of hitting; shouting, stern voice, pulling, foot up the bottom, milanesque noises, jabs to the neck etc..................) are forms of punishment.

Here is my first idea: Try to make a mental note to not do any more punishment for a start as this is doing no good at all as you can see and then we can see if we can work through this and since you are not sure if rewarding her with treats is working or you think the timing is not right, I would recommend trying out a functional reward which I discussed with some friends the other day re a friend struggling with agrophobia.

You will need to take baby steps with this and it will not seem like you are getting very far at all (hence why you will need to walk alone as well if you walk as your hobby). Try to get her out of the house as normal onto the sidewalk and walk with her not saying anything during every step or few steps forwards she takes, as soon as she stops, you mark the action of stopping with a reward marker (like the word YES!) and immediately you turn and she follows and then you return home or to the front gate for example. The reward is returning home (a functional reward as a opposed to a food reward which you have used in the past) and it is the opposite you would think of doing which is why it takes some getting your head around.. it did for me. Now I used this method for other things... I know this sounds like you are rewarding the stopping but I am sure it will work to increase the walking forward - so let's see if it can work...ok?

As she continues to walk forwards, great, just walk with her (no need for verbal praise or anything) If she stops, mark it a YES! and turn around to go home. Make the return home really jolly and be really excited. Maybe jog a little if you can.

You can start this at the door even before you leave if she is reticent to even leave the house.

If she starts to stop on the way home as you said she did (which is now her returning reward), I would take this as wanting to stay out. Stop and wait for her to make any movement to walk away from house again and walk with her. It may look odd to people walking around but who cares. You are are helping your dog and it's good fun and really rewarding to find ways of helping her. If she wants to meet people and has to move forwards to do so, I can see no harm in it - allow her. That is also a functional reward. Just make sure to check it's ok with the person first. Just say you are in training with her and as a reward for walking, she gets to meet a nice person....Is that ok? :-)

Try this for a few repetitions, a couple of times a day and see if you can see the distance from the home increasing. Always walk quietly with her as she is walking forwards and ALWAYS reward any stopping with a marker YES! and return home as the reward. I'm not entirely sure if I have this the right way around... but let's see. You might need to switch this to marking any movement forwards with the YES! and not the stopping but let me think a bit more.

Second idea is to drive/bus it to somewhere completely different for a walk. A really NEW environment with different smells - woods, fields, sea? Take some treats out with you and play some games out on this new walk. Maybe hide some treats on a fallen log (my NEW fave game!!) and really give her the time of her life out in a new place. This will be a positive association with being out with you.
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DoggieZen
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by DoggieZen »

I've just got a few minutes because I'm busy packing for the BAT tour in Europe, but I wanted to say that BAT should definitely work for this. I actually just worked with a client on a similar issue yesterday. I'd add in some other behaviors like teaching the dog to touch your hand (which can encourage movement) and tossing the reward back toward the house (functional plus bonus reward).

The one change I'd make to what was said before was that I'd mark the motion away from the house, not the stopping. That initial motion might be a glance away. Train in short bits (a few minutes at a time, if that's reasonable for you) and just exercise inside until the dog gains confidence through training. Hire a positive trainer if you can find one near you!!

If you need more info on BAT, look on http://functionalrewards.com
Only good things,
Grisha

Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA
Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/bat
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DoggieZen
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by DoggieZen »

p.s. It's not *wrong* to wait for the dog to be done going forward, but I think in this case I'd try to reinforce as the dog was still interested in moving forward.

Here's a nice video example by Rachel Bowman of a dog who is fearful being marked and rewarded for being 'done' and deciding to walk away: http://youtu.be/RnSYmCngByc This is same way I usually do BAT with dog/dog or dog/people reactivity issues.
Only good things,
Grisha

Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA
Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/bat
orion7747
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by orion7747 »

I just took her out for a walk and as usual she was reluctant to get up and walk to the door. We are positive but eventually she only comes when we insist; "oh,no...c'mon!"

Well, as usual she insisted on going left out of the house when I wanted to go right. She pulled to go right and stopped and sat on our lawn. Then I said 'Let's go to the car" which was to the right and she ran and pulled me to the car parked on the street.

We drove only 1 block to drop off the car at our service center for an Inspection and walked home, which she has done before. This time, half way home she insisted on turning around and going back. To the service center? To the car? She loves riding in cars! I did my usual 'let's go home' which always prompts her to walk but she insisted home was the direction we came from even when we were one house away from ours and plainly in sight!

Like I said we've taken this route before. Just last week in fact when I dropped off my other car and took her with me. This is how she walks! She thinks she knows where to go instead of being led. She thinks, and is usually right, she knows the way home. Not this time though.

This has got to be a dominance issue. During the summer, I like to take longer walks. The rest of the year when it's either cold or if I have to get to school (I teach) we do our usual 15 minute around the block. The same direction every time-to the left. So, I know her routine is disrupted when we go another direction and on different streets but it's 2 months into the summer and she still resists!
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Nettle
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by Nettle »

In order for you to make progress with this issue, you are going to have to change your mindset. Your dog is not doing this to annoy you or because she is stubborn or dominant or anything else that you are unwittingly using as a smokescreen. Your dog is communicating to you that she is very unhappy about walking where you want to walk her, and you need to listen.

We can help you solve this but you need to help us with information. You are the only person who can find out what this dog is saying.

You have told us she is overweight. That's easy for you to fix. Cut her food down. Corgis only have short little legs and a few pounds overweight can make a big difference.

Corgis have thick double coats. As she walks better in winter than summer, it could well be that she is very uncomfortable in the heat.

Your dog needs a full vet check. Every time we say this, you say she has regular checks. This is not the matter we are discussing - she needs full blood profiles for organ functions, urine and faeces tests, joint, skeleton, hearing and sight tests. We need to rule out physical pain - dogs are very good at hiding pain. For instance, an overweight dog in a thick coat on a hot day and with the beginnings of arthritis is not going to feel like walking. I'm not saying she is any or all of these things, but giving an example.

She shows (by your description) that she is fearful when out. It doesn't matter that you don't think she is fearful - SHE is acting afraid. Only you can find out what is making her afraid, and it may be more than one thing.

If she wants to go in one direction not the other, try taking her in the direction she'd like to go and see how far you get.

It would be useful if you could vary the walks eg by driving somewhere and then walking her, to see how she reacts. And be happy with small victories. This isn't going to be solved overnight, but with information from you and help from us, it can be solved.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
runlikethewind
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by runlikethewind »

I'm really frustrated we have taken time (it took me a good hour or so to think through and write my reply out to you last night) and not once, have you acknwowledged that, thanked me for that or made any attempt to follow the ideas carefully written down and those that have come since from Grisha and Nettle.

Do you know, you can spend a small fortune getting advice like this from people and here we are, giving it to you on a plate for free.

Do you want to listen to us and have help or do you want to carry on moaning about your dog and saying she is stubborn and dominant (even after we have explained how this cannot be the case IT DOES NOT EXIST), rather than doing anything about it? We undersand your issue- there is no need to repeat it over again.

I don't frankly care if you send me an angry response in return, but I hope you take some time to read the advice and the ideas carefully and try them. What else have you got instead?
ladybug1802
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by ladybug1802 »

orion7747 wrote:This has got to be a dominance issue. During the summer, I like to take longer walks. The rest of the year when it's either cold or if I have to get to school (I teach) we do our usual 15 minute around the block. The same direction every time-to the left. So, I know her routine is disrupted when we go another direction and on different streets but it's 2 months into the summer and she still resists!
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop thiking everything she does is a dominance issue! A[art from the fact it is rubbish, how can you think this little dog being reluctant to walk in the heat is a way of her 'dominating' you?? You really do need to be a bit more open minded and clear this dominance rubbish from your mind....it has been used in the past to explain away all sorts of dog behavioiur without truly dealing with them....but it has been proved it is a load of rubbish.

You dont see some of her behaviour as fear, but you have had several people tell you it IS! Nettle is a professional behavourist, so even if you dont listen to some of the rest of us, please listen to her!! And hey, if parts of her behaviour are NOT due to fear, if you start off assuming it is fear you will do no harm....carry on with this dominance rubbish and you very easily COULD do her long term harm and cause more problems.

Several people have taken the time to write long posts with lots of suggestions, but its sad that your last post doesnt acknowledge any of these suggestions.
runlikethewind
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by runlikethewind »

By the way, I often ask my dogs 'which way shall we go today then' in a fun way of course.. Naturally they can't understand.. but if they choose to go down one path I say mmmm why not, good choice. As Nettle says, if she wants to go one way, let her..... Stop trying to control her every move right at the moment.
jacksdad
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by jacksdad »

orion7747 wrote:This has got to be a dominance issue.
The reason others are insistent that it isn't a dominance issue or say that issue "doesn't exist" is because the proper use of that term is to describe who wins access to a desired resource between two individuals of the same species. example two dogs see a bone. the dog who wins access to the bone would be the "dominant" dog in that situation. Take those same two dogs and now it's about access to a ball, the dog who lost the bone wins the ball. Now the other dog was "dominate" in this other situation. who is "dominant" in accessing a resource depends a lot on what the resource is and how badly a given individual wants it verses the other individual. So, since your not a dog, and your not "fighting" over a resource, dominance isn't the issue here.

The discussion of what dominance is or isn't could go on for pages and really highjack your issue, so I won't belabor the point other than please trust it's not an issue here and that dominance isn't about leadership. and "challenging your leadership" is also not an issue here.


Please, please consider the advice given as it was given by people really worth listening too.
JudyN
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by JudyN »

It's very easy to feel that you must be able to make your dog fit in with what you want, that you must be in full control, but it really doesn't have to be like that. My dog goes through phases of refusing to walk to the woods, and appears to be being 'stubborn'. However, these phases have come after stressful events - the first time after he'd had a bad scare at lurcher racing, and the second after he'd had to have a week of very limited exercise following an injury. I have no idea what it is about the woods he has a problem with, as he always seems to enjoy himself when he's there, but something does. He's more than happy to go to the heath at these times.

I don't want to have my dog flatly refuse to go in one direction, have a battle, and then admit defeat and go the other way (he's far too big to carry!), so I try to predict and avoid confrontation... for a long time I walked to the wood using different routes, or drove there, to avoid the trigger points where he'd dog his heels in. If he does stop and gentle encouragement doesn't work, I might get him to do a couple of obedience commands and then 'reward' him with going the other way, or use food as bribery to go a little further and then 'choose' to turn back myself. But mainly, if he prefers the heath, we'll go to the heath. Why not? I wouldn't take my child to the circus if he was afraid of clowns and though you're not supposed to use children as an analogy to dogs, I feel the same about my dog.

Your dog isn't being stubborn, she's not happy and she's trying to communicate with you.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
orion7747
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by orion7747 »

Listen guys, I really do appreciate the suggestions you all have give and I also realize you're commenting on an issue which would be best resolved in person or on Victoria's show. I have tried all of the suggestions provided and continue to post with the hope that I may have omitted a key item which would hit the nail on the head. This morning's post was written in sheer frustration of walking home a block from where we dropped off the car and having her stopping and wanting to turn and go back when the house was in sight. It was perplexing.

One thing I might mention is although she has a big fenced back yard we play in, her morning and afternoon walks are when she poops. So, knowing she needs to go yet her reluctance to even get out the door without coaxing is s mystery to me. When my wife walks her, she often gets hey going by saying; "Let's go see Atticus," a dog she plays with often a block down. Then she walks very well. When she gets there, they go up on the porch becasue often times she is not home and this is a rouse anyway, then she says "Let's go home." And she walks home very well. But she will still stop now and then. Some times when she stops when I walk her I will ask her to stay, stay..stay...'let's go!' That sometimes tricks her into moving.

I have tried driving to the nearby park and walking around a route. She does begin the walk better but after a bit she seems to realize what's going on and plays her stop and look at me game.

Since she loves to greet people and other dogs, and she doesn't even notice cars, I have know idea what she might be afraid of. Like I said, we could be moving along on a long walk and she suddenly stops every several yards and just stand there looking at me. We walk pass watering stations so she shouldn't be thirsty. And again, other times she wants to go one way when I intend to go another, thinking it's the way home.

She just had what I thought was a pretty through check up but not to the extent of what was suggested. When we go outside in the back to play, she charges after the balls I kick around. Her herding instincts really come out. In the evening I lay on the floor with her for a good hour and throw toys or treats and afterwards she is very cuddly.

Often after we return from a walk, we will play a game when I take her leash off on the side of the house and hide in the backyard. She sit/stays until I call her to come find me. If we just come inside, she always gets a treat. I do this to reward her for walking regardless of her performance.

In considering the comments here I'm thinking this might stem from poor training when she was a pup. We never did the routine of putting the leash on her in the house or tethering her to us with the leash when we walked around the house. Perhaps we could try walks by preparing her by putting the leash on her 5 or 10 minutes before we go. Often we wake her up to walk so maybe we should wake her up and go out in the back and play a bit before we walk.

My sincerest thanks for spending time on this subject.
runlikethewind
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by runlikethewind »

You missed the points again. You are repeating what we already know. You say you have tried all suggestions - well that means you tried the functional reward method listed above in my post and Grisha's post all in a day. You are not taking in what is being written down for you.

Are you going to book her for the tests Nettle listed?

Are you now suggesteing she has a fear/aversion of the lead? What about then going to a different place and letting her off lead (if her recall is good) and seeing she if she enjoys running around...
Last edited by runlikethewind on Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sarah83
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Re: Stubborn walker

Post by Sarah83 »

I have tried all of the suggestions provided
For how long did you try each suggestion? Trying it once or twice and giving up isn't giving it enough time, you need to give it a week or two at least.

As for not being able to figure out what she's scared of because it's not people and not traffic...well, mine was scared of leaves blowing down the street, plastic bags, traffic cones, lines painted on the ground, metal grid covers and all sorts of silly things like that. Just because it's not obvious what she's scared of doesn't mean she isn't scared.
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