Dogs correcting one another

[Femke]

Hi,

First of all, my English is not so good, so I apologize voor any mistakes.

I'm a huge fan of Victoria and her approach. But one thing keeps me questioning: when I talk to people about training positivly they often refer to dogs correcting each other.
Dogs growl and pinch each other to the ground and they use this to support their actions (alpha rolls etc.) if the dog doesn't listen to them.
So they use the agression displays that dogs doo to each other as an argument for using the same thechniques on their dog and I never know what to say because I don't have anything to support that they are wrong.
Is there anything I can use to go into discussion with them on this subject?

[Noobs]

Dogs do correct each other with their body language - lip curl, growl, air snap, sometimes they snap and make contact.

That DOES NOT mean it's okay for humans to do it to their dogs. Humans are not dogs, we have more ways to communicate with them and do not need to do what they do. Humans can teach a dog "this is what I want you to do." Dogs cannot do this. This is the more humane way to train. If you train by setting the dog up for success, rather than waiting for him to do something wrong and then correcting him, what you're doing is increasing his confidence as well as your bond with him. If you train a dog using punishment, what you will have is a dog who looks to you for direction and wants to do what you instruct because you make it rewarding...it's a win-win situation. Like your dog is thinking, "Ooh, if I try this, will I get a treat or praise?" "What if I try this?") If you train using punishment, what you will have is a dog who will avoid doing things -- anything -- to avoid being punished. (Like your dog is thinking, "I won't do that, I might get my collar yanked, I might get a shock, I might get hit." And as a result, your dog becomes more insecure, and you destroy your bond. Sure, the dog will still be loyal because you are the one housing and feeding him, but will he be happy?

Alpha rolls. DOGS DO NOT ALPHA ROLL EACH OTHER. A true "alpha dog" (only talking about dogs here, not humans) do not need to make a lot of noise or resort to violence to prove their status (again, just talking about dogs). The dogs who make a lot of noise and bark and lunge, those dogs are insecure and they're trying to prove themselves. Think of a bully at school. We are taught early on that bullies are just insecure and they pick on smaller kids to make themselves feel good. The real cool kid stays quiet, knows he's cool, doesn't need to prove it to anyone.

Again, dogs do not alpha roll each other. A dog "submits" (hate that word, it's often misinterpreted, but for lack of a better term at the moment I'll use it) to another dog by FREELY rolling on his back as an appeasement gesture, perhaps licking the other dog's face. Again, it is given FREELY - alpha dog doesn't roll submissive dog. Submissive dog rolls on his back and shows his tummy to the alpha dog. Again, JUST DOGS, not humans. Forcibly alpha-rolling a dog is essentially telling him you're about to kill.

That's the simplest way to put it. Have an additional read here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6242

Full disclosure. I am not a professional trainer. But I've been immersing myself in positive training for nearly two years. I trained my dog using punishment (and also a clicker! talk about confusing!) for the first 2-3 months I had him, and have been working to rebuild our relationship ever since. Sometimes he still flinches when I reach toward him too fast. Heartbreaking.

[Noobs]

If you train a dog using punishment, what you will have is a dog who looks to you for direction and wants to do what you instruct because you make it rewarding

Whoops, I meant positive training up there.

[Femke]

Thank you Noobs!

It a nice and complete explanation. I'm sure gonna use it the next time!

[Nettle]

Another arrow for your quiver is that dogs don't tell other dogs what to do they way we do - all dogs say is "come into my space" or "get out of my space". We never let up though - come here, go there, lie down, fetch this, leave that, walk nicely etc ad inf...........and it's never stuff the dog would do if left to its own devices Lordy they are so tolerant of us.

[emmabeth]

Some dogs are bullies and try to force other dogs and push them around.

Those dogs are wherever possible, avoided by other dogs or if they meet someone who is their equal or better than them... they are fought and injured.

Some dogs will offer submissive postures to other dogs - the key part of that there isnt the submissive.... its the offer. Its one thing to offer something and TOTALLY another to take it by force - im sure you can figure out some pretty obvious human examples of this without me spelling them out!

Where dogs go about correcting one another, firstly its generally between adult dogs and youngsters, and secondly its not always particularly successful.

My Deerhound ***** is now an adult, yet when she tries to tell my Tibetan terrier boy (17 months not really an adult yet..) off, he laughs in her face, carries on what hes doing. If she ups the ante and gets more forceful with him.... does he listen? Nope. He has what I can only describe as a tantrum, he will sit back on his back legs, front paws up in the air and snarl and snap and growl and scream in her face (never actually making contact!) because he DOESNT take her seriously and then hes frightened and frustrated when she wont do what he wants and she tells him off.

If she could do what I do when hes being a pain in the rear with me... walk out the room and shut the door for 10 seconds... she would be effective all the time but she cant implement that method so she uses the only one she has.

So yes sometimes dogs will react and tell off other dogs, but they are by no means successful, effective, or kind about it when they do!

[Pawzk9]

From an article I wrote on my website: http://positivelycanine.com/index.php?id=31

Of Alphas and Whisperers There's a whole school of training (recently popularized by some reality TV shows) which tell us that to teach our dogs, we need to make them think we ARE dogs. There are all sorts of superstitious beliefs and strange behaviors connected to this theory like spitting on the dog's food to show him that the "Alpha" got to eat out of his bowl first.

The fact is, dogs know we aren't dogs. We don't look like dogs, and when we try to "act" like dogs, we do so clumsily - without the subtle body language and timing a dog naturally has. And the things we want from a dog are not the things another dog wants. Any "training" that takes place within a group of dogs is about social behavior. I've never seen a dog cue another dog to sit . And many of the things we DO ask of dogs (come quickly to me in a direct line, give me sustained eye contact and stay very close to me) would probably get his clock cleaned if he did it to a higher status dog.

Unless I want my dog keeping his distance, avoiding my gaze, etc., there's no reason I would act like an animal who would expect those responses. Many ethologists believe there is no such animal as an "alpha dog." Dogs, like all social animals, have some interest in status. But that status is fluid, not absolute. And the higher status animals generally don't seek out and engage in battles of wills with others. They don't need to. The animals who challenge others and make a point of big displays are generally ambitious youngsters who might want to test others to see if they can "move up". Generally, they get the answer "no" from more mature and established animals. When we try to imitate dogs, without a true knowledge of their motives, without the ability to really communicate in dog as a "first language" we can come off as socially inept bullies. It's not a wonder that some people get bitten for trying this strategy. It's a wonder that dogs are so tolerant that so few people get themselves "put in their place" for this sort of behavior.

I've spent three decades studying dogs and trying to learn their language. But I have to admit, I'll never really be "fluent" enough to communicate totally as a dog (and since I want different things, why would I?) I also have dogs who seem to have a farily big vocabulary of "English" words. But I'm going to understand that I can not ever expect it to be their "first language." It seems to me that an obvious and useful compromise is for us both to learn a new and common language that is available through clicker training.

[GoofyDog2]

I found a thread elsewhere that discusses an incident where the OP's dog was pinned by an "Alpha" female dog at a dog park, apparently as a correction for his being too possessive and aggressive about a ball. Apparently she "tested" him by going after the ball after he had become overly excited about it, and when he lunged and snarled at her, she knocked him on his back and pinned him there, where he remained submissive while they snarled at each other as she turned her head slightly to the side, waiting for him to "submit".

In the same thread was this picture taken by another poster showing one of her dogs being disciplined by two others. They are not wolves, but Northern Inuits, and apparently they often correct and discipline her GSD/Border Collie mix who is the black dog in the picture:

http://thornsphotography.deviantart.com ... -154782896

[Femke]

Thank you for all the reply's!

@GoofyDog2: That is exactly what people with aversive techniques use to support what they are doing to their dogs.

[Mattie]

GoofyDog, have you seen this for yourself? I have many times, the submissive dog rolls over onto his back to show subission he isn't put there by the other dog.

One of my dogs now at the Bridge was very good at teaching other dogs manners, it was through her that I realised that a dog doesn't normally roll another over, the dog rolls over himself, shows him belly as submission. When Tommy did this she looked like those dogs in the photo, many thought she had put the dogs there intil I spoke to them, then they realised that their dog had rolled over themselves. They had seen this but their brain didn't accept it at first, this happens a lot with us humans, our brains don't always accept what we are seeing when it happens but will later.

[Noobs]

GoofyDog that picture is of the dog already in a submissive pose - how do you know the other dogs put him there? Very likely that he rolled himself that way to offer submission to the other dogs.

[forkin14]

To me, the two Inuits don't look like their snarling or being aggressive but rather being somewhat curious instead. It doesn't appear that they force the dog to submit.

But hey, I'm no expert, just giving my opinion

[GoofyDog2]

You are correct that the black dog willingly rolled into the submissive position when confronted by the other dogs. There is a third Inuit not shown who is described by the poster as being the "Alpha", but these dogs used canine body language and growls to impose the "correction". The black dog appears to be giving calming signals.

*Mod edit - no linking to other forums discussions*

[Noobs]

A lot of people do misinterpret a dog with no impulse control and who is a bully as being dominant. I used to hear it all the time at the dog park, "He wants to dominate the other dogs" or "She wants to be alpha over the other dogs." And I always wanted to say, "No, your dog is just rude and has no manners."

[emmabeth]

I have unlocked the thread - apologies to anyone whose post got killed in the last few hours, nothing personal!

Please continue the discussion, without involving the goings on on other forums. References to other forums will be removed/posts culled in the process.

As you were folks!