Timid Dog and Training

[JenJ]

Hi again,

I posted earlier about "Need some Advice" with regard to a new friend, a male (intact but scheduled to not be), I'm guessing about a yr old, give or take a couple months and he appears to be a pit bull/? mix but a little more of the mix as he's a bit taller and lanky-er than a pit. He's friendly, very athletic seems almost over eager to please. It's been mentioned to me by my mother and a friend that he's been sent to ease the inevitable of losing my old (13 yrs) labrador who has been the nucleus of our home (me and the cats) for her entire life.

However, he's apparently been yelled at and possibly abused which leads to my question. Whenever I am firm in his training, by saying "no" or pointing out "no" things to him, what I get is a dog that either runs away from me, or rolls over and gives me his belly. Even trying to remove him from the bed (he likes to "dig" a hole to lay in and has torn one of my comforters already), he just curls up in a ball or belly's up and I have to lift him from the bed. On the up side, he's not one to pee when he gets scared or excited, and he DOES know what "no" means, but when he does this, I find myself getting very very frustrated... since even removing him from the bed and telling him no doesn't keep him from getting on it when I'm not looking. He has his blanket that is his own and can be "dug" as much as he wishes and, of which he WILL sleep on when I go to bed (or go and sleep on the couch). His lates escapade was to "dig a bigger hole" in the cat door that was cut out from a hollow core door to the back porch. He and the other dog were together with access to the yard and had food and water on their side of the door. I'm sure the older dog (Shelby) was rolling her eyes and thinking "you're gonna be in BIG trouble (Buddy)... lol

I'm certain that the digging is because he's been an outside dog for most of his life (he also likes to bury his rawhides in the yard) but will this pass the longer he has to adjust to having a warm and soft place to sleep? Also, can anyone tell me if the peeing on EVERYTHING will stop at any point or is this just a male dog thing? (yes, I've had females for most of my "dog life"). He seems to be housebroken (amazing to me) or at least he's just more comfortable going outside (except for the bag of items on the porch that he pee'd on coming in from outside, and right in front of me).

There are just enough GOOD things about him for me to not have taken him away (his previous owner has admitted he'd been trying to get rid of him, by letting him run around our little town and hoping someone else would take him), so I guess I'm looking for some hope that the things that are bugging me so much, are things that will ease in time as he gets more used to being in a "family" - even it is mostly cats.

[Noobs]

It's late and I'm heading to bed soon but I wanted to say quickly that if he's timid, then you really must give him time before you start being "firm" with him. Try to avoid saying "no"; instead distract him by asking him to do something else. Is he afraid of the clicker? I taught my dog to get off the couch using the "off" command and by clicker training. So now instead of "don't get on the couch" or "don't get on the bed" - he gets, "hey, get off the bed/couch and something nice will happen to you" (ie treats or praise). Try to have a mindset of teaching the dog what you WANT instead of what you DON'T WANT. Changing the perspective even that simply can make a world of difference in a) your frustration level and b) his confidence in himself and you.

Some of the members here MIIIIGHT advise you not to neuter him just yet if he's got confidence issues as it may make him worse. Anyone care to expand on that?

[emmabeth]

I suspect to him, 'no' means a whole lot more than it does to you. No means getting hit or yelled at, no means tension and anxiety..

The thing is, even if to him, 'no' JUST meant 'dont do that', it still is too vague, its not enough instruction, it isnt helping him.

You need to learn not to say no!

Remove the word 'no' from your vocabulary. Seriously - now without that word, think about how you are going to get what you want from him?

Without using the word no.. you have to tell him 'please do this' instead. Eradicating the pointless and vague 'no' which to him has links to fear, discomfort, abuse AND has no real, useful meaning either.. means you HAVE to give him positive, constructive instruction, and manage him so that you dont ever need to say no.

The problem with 'no' is that as long as you continue to use it, as well as it confusing him it stops you from thinking your way round a problem.

Oh just seen Noobs post - I would hold off neutering him for a few months just until you get the hang of the 'not saying no' thing and get a better bond with him. Then reconsider, but the sudden drop in testosterone can REALLY plummet a dogs confidence and hes already not wholly convinced hes safe.. He is also still a pup and probably not physically mature yet (youd be surprised how much a dog matures and changes between 1 adn 2 years old!) so waiting will do no harm. Lopping them off though, is forever you cant stick those back on again.

It doesnt mean that you allow him to do as he pleases, hed be a really unhappy confused dog if you did, it means you approach things differently in a way he understands far better.

Saying 'no' isnt being firm, and pointing items or scenes out to him and saying 'no' is meaningless (except in that it probably reminds him of situations that ended in him being yelled at or hit which is why he goes belly up or runs away from you).

Imagine the bed scenario. But without the word no.

First of all, ideally prevent him from getting on the bed in the first place, at the very least unsupervised. So shut the bedroom door.

When he is going to be supervised - place a blanket or comforter of his own on the end of the bed (ideally pick a highly contrasting colour so he can differentiate between his blanket and the rest of the bed).

Those two simple steps remove the need to say no, by preventing him doing the wrong thing (getting on the bed when you are not there), and are the first stage in teaching him what you DO want him to do.

So now you have you and your dog on the bed, with a blanket for him to lie on. He starts to dig up his blanket... what do you do?

Instead of saying no, because that word doesnt exist now - jump off the bed and call him to you in an excited high pitched voice. Ask him to sit and then send him back onto the bed, you get back up too and sit and read your book. Use treats if that will help encourage him to comply.

If he goes to dig again, repeat the process, being on the bed is fine, but digging is not ok so you interrupt digging and change the subject each time he attempts to do it.

You may be able to use some other sound to distract him from digging, but I would be careful here, you already know he associates at least one word with trouble, its highly likely he would associate another loud noise with unpleasant consequences too, so whilst for some dogs I might recommend clapping your hands or saying 'ah-ah' I think for him perhaps not.

What if he jumps up on the bed and tries to lie on a bit not covered with the blanket? Then you can call him back off and invite him to sit on just the blanketed bit -use treats to help you make it clear to him that the blanket part of the bed is for him and is rewarding to be on - the unblanketed part of the bed results in you calling him off the bed, no lying down and chilling out there.

Once you stop expecting him to understand what no actually means, and realise he cant grasp that properly.. you will be less frustrated.

The problem with no is that its only ever going to mean anything when you are there to say it. Once you are gone, whatever it meant is irrelevant to him.

Saying 'yes do this, i will reward that' though, sets up a dog to form a habit of doing certain things which can carry on even if you are not there. Thats not to say he will always lie on a blanket rather than on your comforter when you are not there to see him, because theres no way of making that important to him without your presence. So shut the door...

You wont eradicate digging to make a nest - dogs do this, its a dog thing. Some dogs do it more than others, some dogs prefer to do it with some items and not with others. My Deerhound is incredibly particular about making her bed, she will spend ages pulling, pushing, digging, nosing about her blanket to get it just so.. shes never been an outdoor dog in her life (the little flower, shed melt!). It is just a natural behaviour she feels the need to do.

If you provide enough appropriate things to do, and enough direction to do these things, AND you consistently prevent him from doing the things you dont want him to do - you will find in time he forgets his habit of doing these things. But you cant override certain desires, and some temptations are just too strong so you do have to manage them instead. I would suspect the cat door is too much of a temptation, if he juuuuuust makes that hole big enough he can get out there.. so teach him to be crated or close him into a different room instead.

I think once you stop saying no, and starting making it crystal clear what you DO want instead, you and he will get along much better.

[rossibear]

Hi I have a 9yo vizsla who we got last december, she has much of the behaviours you describe, she had 9yrs of being battered and starved until she came to us, the first time I went to get her off the couch by putting my hand out to gently take her collar, she cowered down screaming, she was so scared she wouldn't move. She has shown this behaviour on many innocent occasions, showing the depth of her abuse. She is improving as she grows to trust us. I do clicker training with her that has helped enormously, but it is a long process for a damaged dog. I have a friend who has the most gorgeous rhodesion ridge back, she got him at 6mths after he had been battered , starved, cigerettes stubbed out on him,he still has trust issues esp with strange men, but totally adores my mate, he is 9 this year and it took him til at least 5 before he chilled out a bit more. good luck