Constant Barking

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OceanStar
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Constant Barking

Post by OceanStar » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:42 am

We almost have a similar situation here.... here are a few differences with Jakes barking issues.

1. He is a constant barker outdoors, along the fence line anyone who walks past his backyard including neighbours,
strangers, other dogs, birds etc.
2. Even when he is having one of his barking fits going outside to see what the issue is he continues barking... and
sometimes nothing is even there.
3. Our (lovely) neighbours had addressed the issue with us about a month back we did what we could to help control
it and bring him in when he started barking more and more. Animal control was called several times steming from
this issue. Yes, it even went the whole 9 yards, they recorded it and we went to court. That is a story for another time.
4. We since then have purchased a bark collar.... As soon as we take it off he barks non stop. As of late we have noticed that he is still insistant of barking with it on despite it shocking him and then it even sounds worse then the barking because he yelps as it shocks him.

So after all of this fuss what is the next step to help control the barking with and with out that collar?

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Noobs
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Re: Fear and Attention Barking

Post by Noobs » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:02 am

OceanStar, I saw your pics and the dogs are lovely. :D

Your post might get moved to its own topic by the mods but for now, I'll warn you you'll be told to ditch the bark collar.

What are the boys' routine like? Jake is a hound so he's going to bark. But he probably won't need to as much if his mental and physical needs are met. So if you give details about his daily routine the folks here will be able to help you put a plan together.

How much physical and mental exercise does he get? (It should be noted that running around in his back yard doesn't really count - we'll need to know how much he gets walked, does he get any off-lead running, what kind of training does he get daily?

What does he eat? How often is he fed?

If he's alone in the yard and barking it could be as simple as he's bored and understimulated. I don't know, just guessing as we have no details yet. If you give lots of details then you'll get the help and support you need. Hope to hear back from you soon!

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Mattie
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Re: Fear and Attention Barking

Post by Mattie » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:57 am

OceanStar wrote:We almost have a similar situation here.... here are a few differences with Jakes barking issues.

1. He is a constant barker outdoors, along the fence line anyone who walks past his backyard including neighbours,
strangers, other dogs, birds etc.
2. Even when he is having one of his barking fits going outside to see what the issue is he continues barking... and
sometimes nothing is even there.
Dogs don't bark for nothing, he will have his reasons, just because we don't know what the reasons are, doesn't mean there isn't one. For the fence line, I told someone to put bin liners along the bottom of his fence so his dog couldn't see through, it was a JRT so only a small dog, this stopped the barking, when the bin liners eventually came down on their own accord, he didn't go back to the barking. Problem solved very easily with little effort. :D
3. Our (lovely) neighbours had addressed the issue with us about a month back we did what we could to help control
it and bring him in when he started barking more and more. Animal control was called several times steming from
this issue. Yes, it even went the whole 9 yards, they recorded it and we went to court. That is a story for another time.
4. We since then have purchased a bark collar.... As soon as we take it off he barks non stop. As of late we have noticed that he is still insistant of barking with it on despite it shocking him and then it even sounds worse then the barking because he yelps as it shocks him.
Ditch that collar, that won't teach him anything apart from giving him a shock which he won't work out why. What can happen when he is shocked, if he is looking at a person, another dog, cat etc, he can think, and there are many dogs that have done this, that they have caused the shock and become aggressive to them. It isn't working anywhat so why go on hurting him?

Do you leave him outside on his own? If so bring him in, if he isn't outside he can't bark for the reasons he is barking for.

It is impossible to train a dog to do anything if you are not there, shock collars or anything else that goes off when you are not there won't teach him not to bark, he is barking for a reason, to stop the barking you have to find the reason to solve the problem. As you have found out he knows when the collar is on and when it isn't, this collar is completely useless and is abusing him. Think about this, if someone wanted you not to do something and every time you did you were given an electric shock, what would your reaction be? If it is people and animals going past, make the fence so he can't see them.

Leave him inside your house, give him plenty of exercise before you go, a nice long walk, so he is tired and leave him with something to do, a frozen kong, buster ball or juicy bone etc.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

emmabeth
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by emmabeth » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:38 pm

Yep, Ive split your posts from the other topic so now you have your own thread.

Firstly, what does Jake do all day... tell us his daily routine, walks, training, playing, how long he spends inside, how long outside, how long alone, what he eats.... when he eats it..

As you have found the shock collar is not having the desired effect and is hurting your dog - so theres absolutely no benefit in carrying on using it - please bin it! These devices rely on your dog connecting his own behaviour with the punishment, which your dog either isnt doing, or the desire/drive to bark overrides the punishement.

What is your fencing like? Can he see through it - if so the first thing to do would be to prevent that, it would cut out a huge percentage of the visual stimulus that triggers his barking.

Once we know what his daily routine is like we can suggest additions, changes etc that will help you and Jake to overcome this problem.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

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Noobs
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by Noobs » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:50 pm

To be fair, OP didn't say it was a shock collar, but a bark collar, which could be a spray collar. Either way, OceanStar, both are aversives and you would be best advised to ditch it. It's not working and it is just hurting your dog. Good luck, come back and answer the questions and you'll get the help you need. I hate to think of the authorities getting involved again if this is fixable.

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Mattie
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by Mattie » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:03 pm

OceanStar wrote: As of late we have noticed that he is still insistant of barking with it on despite it shocking him and then it even sounds worse then the barking because he yelps as it shocks him.

Noobs this is why I think it is a shock collar, she said that the collar shocks her dog.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

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Re: Constant Barking

Post by Noobs » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:09 pm

Whoops, my bad. You're right, sorry.

Fundog
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by Fundog » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:06 pm

I've got some input that might be able to help. My Dottie Monster is a barker. But so are some of our neighbors' dogs. At first we noticed that immediately after meals, Dottie would go outside and bark. It finally occurred to me that she may have been telling all the neighbor dogs what she had for dinner, and how good her life was now (she had been rescued, after having been starved nearly to death and abandoned). That has since stopped, though. We have a doggy door, so the two dogs can come in and out at leisure. When Dottie starts up with her barking, we have her conditioned to a whistle-- we blow the whistle, she comes inside, we praise/reward her, then sometimes we put the cover back on the doggy door to keep her inside for a few minutes. Quite often, only a few minutes is all that is needed for her to forget what she was barking about, or for whatever she was barking about to go away.

One other thing we've observed is that Dottie responds to the neighbor dogs barking, but not every time they bark. At first, she did, but now she has learned to listen first to what they are saying. The neighbors directly behind us have a Scotty that spends almost all of his time outside. And he yaps CONSTANTLY. Dottie ignores him-- we think he is just saying he's bored and lonely, and asking for attention. The neighbors next door to us have two chihuahuas. They bark for all kinds of different reasons, so when they bark, Dottie waits a beat to listen what they're saying, then she runs out and joins them. Occasionally, they must be just running their mouths off, because she will raise her head, then put her head back down again and stay put. That doesn't happen very often. A lot of times, when the chis start barking, we try to keep Dottie from going out, and she gets rather distressed and starts pacing. She has an insatiable need to go out and join forces. But... every time we call her back inside, she comes. EVERY TIME. So we praise her for coming in, acknowledge the "good job" she's doing (protecting our fortress), and then keep her in for a few minutes-- just long enough for the situation outside to resolve itself.

And as the others were saying, a bored/under-exercised dog will tend to bark (like the Scotty behind my house). Annie seldom barks, but if she is bored or hasn't gotten her walk, she will bark. Exercise and games to use her puzzle solving skills (Annie is an extremely intelligent dog, and needs to put her mind to use) are very effective at reducing barking.

Long story short, try harder to consider all the reasons for barking, and try to resolve it from there, rather than just suppressing it with negative consequences, and everyone will be a lot happier.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

OceanStar
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Re: Fear and Attention Barking

Post by OceanStar » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:00 am

Noobs wrote:OceanStar, I saw your pics and the dogs are lovely. :D

Your post might get moved to its own topic by the mods but for now, I'll warn you you'll be told to ditch the bark collar.

What are the boys' routine like? Jake is a hound so he's going to bark. But he probably won't need to as much if his mental and physical needs are met. So if you give details about his daily routine the folks here will be able to help you put a plan together.


How much physical and mental exercise does he get? (It should be noted that running around in his back yard doesn't really count - we'll need to know how much he gets walked, does he get any off-lead running, what kind of training does he get daily?

What does he eat? How often is he fed?

If he's alone in the yard and barking it could be as simple as he's bored and understimulated. I don't know, just guessing as we have no details yet. If you give lots of details then you'll get the help and support you need. Hope to hear back from you soon!
Walking is an hour a day, plus playtime with us. Indoors. He does run in his own backyard for several hours a day,
which we dont consider. Off lead running is not an option in our area at this time. Simply because this is a
small town, although I have heard that one is in the works by next fall.

Purina Beneful is what we can feed him at this time. Yes I know it is not a High quality dog food. We try to
supplement what he is not getting with veggies and vitamins. He is fed twice daily once in the morning and
then again in the evening.

OceanStar
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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:49 am

Re: Fear and Attention Barking

Post by OceanStar » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:09 am

Mattie wrote:
OceanStar wrote:We almost have a similar situation here.... here are a few differences with Jakes barking issues.

1. He is a constant barker outdoors, along the fence line anyone who walks past his backyard including neighbours,
strangers, other dogs, birds etc.
2. Even when he is having one of his barking fits going outside to see what the issue is he continues barking... and
sometimes nothing is even there.
Dogs don't bark for nothing, he will have his reasons, just because we don't know what the reasons are, doesn't mean there isn't one. For the fence line, I told someone to put bin liners along the bottom of his fence so his dog couldn't see through, it was a JRT so only a small dog, this stopped the barking, when the bin liners eventually came down on their own accord, he didn't go back to the barking. Problem solved very easily with little effort. :D


3. Our (lovely) neighbours had addressed the issue with us about a month back we did what we could to help control
it and bring him in when he started barking more and more. Animal control was called several times steming from
this issue. Yes, it even went the whole 9 yards, they recorded it and we went to court. That is a story for another time.
4. We since then have purchased a bark collar.... As soon as we take it off he barks non stop. As of late we have noticed that he is still insistant of barking with it on despite it shocking him and then it even sounds worse then the barking because he yelps as it shocks him.
Ditch that collar, that won't teach him anything apart from giving him a shock which he won't work out why. What can happen when he is shocked, if he is looking at a person, another dog, cat etc, he can think, and there are many dogs that have done this, that they have caused the shock and become aggressive to them. It isn't working anywhat so why go on hurting him?


Do you leave him outside on his own? If so bring him in, if he isn't outside he can't bark for the reasons he is barking for.


It is impossible to train a dog to do anything if you are not there, shock collars or anything else that goes off when you are not there won't teach him not to bark, he is barking for a reason, to stop the barking you have to find the reason to solve the problem. As you have found out he knows when the collar is on and when it isn't, this collar is completely useless and is abusing him. Think about this, if someone wanted you not to do something and every time you did you were given an electric shock, what would your reaction be? If it is people and animals going past, make the fence so he can't see them.

Leave him inside your house, give him plenty of exercise before you go, a nice long walk, so he is tired and leave him with something to do, a frozen kong, buster ball or juicy bone etc.
Good idea with the bin deal, Jake would have these destroyed! He has already got to the plastic plant containers.

We want to ditch the collar so much. Jake is on probation for one year. The judge had stated that if anyone in the neighbourhood calls for his barking including the neighbour who initally called he will be taken from our home and
put down. Animal control also makes frequent stops by to see/hear for their own records. We were also ordered
to pay a fine which goes with out saying.

We do leave him outside on his own when he is out there. When he starts to bark we bring him in. Then 10 mins later he scratches at the door to go back out.

OceanStar
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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:49 am

Re: Constant Barking

Post by OceanStar » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:18 am

emmabeth wrote:Yep, Ive split your posts from the other topic so now you have your own thread.

Firstly, what does Jake do all day... tell us his daily routine, walks, training, playing, how long he spends inside, how long outside, how long alone, what he eats.... when he eats it..

As you have found the shock collar is not having the desired effect and is hurting your dog - so theres absolutely no benefit in carrying on using it - please bin it! These devices rely on your dog connecting his own behaviour with the punishment, which your dog either isnt doing, or the desire/drive to bark overrides the punishement.

What is your fencing like? Can he see through it - if so the first thing to do would be to prevent that, it would cut out a huge percentage of the visual stimulus that triggers his barking.

Once we know what his daily routine is like we can suggest additions, changes etc that will help you and Jake to overcome this problem.

Ok some of these questions I have answered in above posts. A daily routine for Jake would be
Outdoors to potty around 7am he usualy stays out about 30 mins. (also we dont put the collar on him at this time because he doesnt bark) weird.

About an hour later he is fed and let back outside, this is when he has the collar put back on.
Again he will stay outdoors for an hour or so, then comes in and we play with him some indoors
or curls up for a morning nap. During the course of the day he is talked to, praised, given some
mental playtime. The afternoons is when he spends the bulk of his time outdoors and is brought in
around dinnner time unless he scratches on the door to be let in.
He is fed dinner, walked all to be finished by 8pm that day. This is typical, but can change from time
to time but not often.

I have included a few more pics that Jake is featured in one of them you can see the fence.
Jake was recently taken to the vet and is 105 lbs great overall health and very strong physically
and mentally. LOL STUBBORN, but a quick learner.
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OceanStar
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by OceanStar » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:22 am

Mattie wrote:
OceanStar wrote: As of late we have noticed that he is still insistant of barking with it on despite it shocking him and then it even sounds worse then the barking because he yelps as it shocks him.

Noobs this is why I think it is a shock collar, she said that the collar shocks her dog.
Yes I should have stated this is a shock collar.... I dont even like that word shock.
When it does shock him, his poor lil eyes kind of bug out if you will you can see that it is hurting him
and hear it in his voice/bark. We have not seen any aggressive behaviours yet.... but he is a different
dog when that collar is on.

emmabeth
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by emmabeth » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:40 am

Ok, is there someone home all day?

Can you take him out (not let.. take!) and remain with him whilst he is outside. Have treats handy, when he goes to the toilet reward him well for it and then bring him back inside. If you want to you can play a game with him outside after he has toiletted, then bring him in. The point is to teach him that he goes potty quickly when he gets into the back yard.

Then feed him, but not from a bowl, feed him from a Kong toy or a couple of Kong toys... this should mean his meal takes him much longer and much more effort to eat, leaving him much more satisfied and mentally more tired!

Then take him outside again in case he needs to potty and bring him in again when he has, after a reward or game (you do not want him to learn that the instant hes been he gets his fun stopped!).

WHat you fill the rest of the day with is entirely up to you, as long as it does not involve him being outside, alone and unsupervised for ANY period of time. As much as he may prefer to be outside, the bark collar ISNT working and IS causing him pain and distress so you cannot continue to use it. His continued barking outside could mean him losing his life, so its a necessary evil... he has to be supervised or be inside.

I would recommend that you walk him during the day as well as in the evening, and find some time for a game or two and another potty trip or two (he may need less in time but right now he is used to being outside and at liberty to go whenever he fancies) before his evening meal, rest and then walk before bed.

The more training you can do with him, such as clicker training, loose leash walking, etc - the less energy he has got for barking at random or even non existant things and the happier he will be.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

Fundog
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Re: Constant Barking

Post by Fundog » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:45 am

Also, I see you actually have winter where you live-- is the snow the reason you only play games with him indoors, rather than outside in the yard? Does he play fetch at all? Outside is a good place to do that-- and a lot of dogs enjoy trying to fetch snowballs that are thrown for them, only to discover it has vanished once it landed, lol!

I understand you have a small, un-dog-friendly town (ugh). I feel for you. But do you have any public lands-- that is to say, wilderness areas, managed by the Bureau of Land Management? As stated, these "public lands" often do not have a lot of really tightly enforced rules, since these wilderness areas are reserved for the sole purpose of our recreation and fun (camping and hunting). In these areas, we can often take our dogs out to run off-leash. Just do a bit of research online for your state, or visit your local BLM office for a map before you go, so you know which areas are okay for which activities. For example, some areas are actually wildlife refuges for protecting endangered species, so many activities are restricted. Of course, I'm assuming you are in the U.S. Things might be different across the pond. :wink:

Basically, just put your creative thinking cap on, do a "noodle dance," and come up with some fun games and activities that will not only keep Jake busy and occupied, but will also make him tired and satisfied.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

OceanStar
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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:49 am

Re: Constant Barking

Post by OceanStar » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:43 pm

Fundog wrote:Also, I see you actually have winter where you live-- is the snow the reason you only play games with him indoors, rather than outside in the yard? Does he play fetch at all? Outside is a good place to do that-- and a lot of dogs enjoy trying to fetch snowballs that are thrown for them, only to discover it has vanished once it landed, lol!

I understand you have a small, un-dog-friendly town (ugh). I feel for you. But do you have any public lands-- that is to say, wilderness areas, managed by the Bureau of Land Management? As stated, these "public lands" often do not have a lot of really tightly enforced rules, since these wilderness areas are reserved for the sole purpose of our recreation and fun (camping and hunting). In these areas, we can often take our dogs out to run off-leash. Just do a bit of research online for your state, or visit your local BLM office for a map before you go, so you know which areas are okay for which activities. For example, some areas are actually wildlife refuges for protecting endangered species, so many activities are restricted. Of course, I'm assuming you are in the U.S. Things might be different across the pond. :wink:

Basically, just put your creative thinking cap on, do a "noodle dance," and come up with some fun games and activities that will not only keep Jake busy and occupied, but will also make him tired and satisfied.
Yes we do a lil of both playing games indoors more in the winter then inside. Winters here can be bitterly cold when out there and winds up to 30 mph... makes it not so fun. As far as public lands go yes we do have some... where they are Im unaware of.... mostly farmers around here with cattle,sheep and various other livestock. Many times I have googled to find dog parks in our area and the closest one is about 87 miles away. LOL. And I dont drive that way as a habit. I also have learned that my city has a link on their page raising funds to build a daog park here within 2 miles of where we live. So I have jumped on board with them to keep a status as to when and what I can do to help move the process along quicker.
Starting off with enrolling in the 5k walk/run they are holding and I plan on taking Jake and Luda to this! So that is a positive.

Today was a beautiful day here in the city close to the 60's and we have taken 2 60 min walks... so needless to say he is a bit more tired then usual. Until this evening when kids were riding their bikes down the back side of our fence.. then Jake went on a barking/yelping spree for a lil over 30 mins. Which was NOT GOOD. As the neighbors came over to complain, and threatend that they will be calling animal control in the AM tomorrow.

We are honestly trying to get this under control and explained this to them... they seem to be very hard nosed about the entire situation which is unbecoming. I wanted to keep you all updated and will continue to do so in the next few days.

Thank you so much and I will continue to keep reading all the adcvice and currently prevailing thoughts you all may have.

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