Hi,
Not to be the devil's advocate here, as I am a big fan of Victoria's methods and of positive training methods in general, but so-called "choke chains" are actually really effective when used in the right situations and in the correct way. When I took my first dog to doggie school, one of the things they had to learn was to heel right beside you without becoming distracted by anything. The trainer there, who was a certified trainer, an experienced dog handler for dog shows, and had a degree in animal behavior, told us to buy them for use in the training class. I didn't want to because they seemed mean and so went to the pets supply store and actually tried one on myself. Yes, people did stare, but I yanked that thing as hard as I could and then had my friend stand behind me and yank it. They are designed not to actually choke the dog, and it honestly did not hurt me, although it was not comfortable, and human necks are much weaker than dog necks. So I decided to get one and go along with the training. The thing with them is, you don't use them to simply teach the dog to walk on the lead. The dog needs to already know how to walk on the lead. You don't yank the dog back into place if he moves away from your side. You don't use one if your dog still pulls at the lead. You don't use one on a small dog. You don't ever pull hard on the chain. What you do is to gently but quickly tug the chain until it tightens up and then quickly release it. It should remind the dog of what he's supposed to be doing, not choke him into submission. Shouldn't take more than two seconds to tighten and release it. This teaches the dog to walk exactly where you want him to walk without hurting him - it's basically a way of maintaining his attention the whole time. Of course, you still reward him for walking where he's supposed to walk as well. I found it to be very effective and thought it seemed a lot more comfortable to my dog than the soft head collars some of the other trainers were using at that school. Plus, it's a really good thing for a dog to know how to heel well, especially if you live in a city or a place where people let their dogs off the lead. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in there because it worked well for me and I wanted people to know that "choke chains," which we called correction collars at doggie school, are not necessarily torture devices. I can definitely see how they would be if you used one as a method of "sharp correction." However, you aren't supposed to.
Choke chains - pros and cons
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
How do you think the 'correction' of a choke chain works?
It works because the dog knows that to not heed it will incur unpleasant results.
There are some things you seem to not realise here.
Why do you think one shouldnt use a choke chain on a small dog?
The reason is, small dogs suffer from collapsed trachea more easily than bigger dogs, purely due to their size.
If choke chains didnt cause pain and damage, then it would be fine to use them on small dogs.
It is a fact that choke chains can cause damage, even if you NEVER jerk one at all, a dog just pulling into one, over a period of time will do damage to the delicate processes in his throat.
So, they work due to their aversive nature, ie they are unpleasant.
You cant deny that, you give a command, it is ignored you 'correct' by flicking the chain quickly.
Even if you dont cause pain, that sound of the chain tightening, the sensation of it tightening reminds the dog of how it feels when the chain really DOES jerk hard or tighten fully.
I wont disagree that aversive methods, positive punishment will work.... but for reasons that we really ought not use them.
If your dog is not paying attention to you, you could get his attention by pinching his ear hard, or flicking his ear, or ..... and if you were consistent in that, eventually your dog would learn before you pinched so hard, and eventually just by the touch of your fingers on his ear...
Sometimes though, the aversive wont be sufficient, and then what do you do... you try harder so you flick the chain harder, you pinch the ear harder... its all the same thing.... you set the electric collar to full level....
Where does it stop.
What it boils down to for me, is that i can get every bit as good a heel out of any of my dogs using positive reward based methods as you can from positive punishment.
So why use the unpleasant method?
And it is of course quite a bit harder to do mental or physical damage to a dog using the positive, pleasant method, whereas i see more wrongly used choke chains causing pain and fear and serious, irreparable damage to dogs than i have ever seen them used correctly (and even so i still dont buy that using the correctly doesnt cause at least anticipation of pain).
It works because the dog knows that to not heed it will incur unpleasant results.
There are some things you seem to not realise here.
Why do you think one shouldnt use a choke chain on a small dog?
The reason is, small dogs suffer from collapsed trachea more easily than bigger dogs, purely due to their size.
If choke chains didnt cause pain and damage, then it would be fine to use them on small dogs.
It is a fact that choke chains can cause damage, even if you NEVER jerk one at all, a dog just pulling into one, over a period of time will do damage to the delicate processes in his throat.
So, they work due to their aversive nature, ie they are unpleasant.
You cant deny that, you give a command, it is ignored you 'correct' by flicking the chain quickly.
Even if you dont cause pain, that sound of the chain tightening, the sensation of it tightening reminds the dog of how it feels when the chain really DOES jerk hard or tighten fully.
I wont disagree that aversive methods, positive punishment will work.... but for reasons that we really ought not use them.
If your dog is not paying attention to you, you could get his attention by pinching his ear hard, or flicking his ear, or ..... and if you were consistent in that, eventually your dog would learn before you pinched so hard, and eventually just by the touch of your fingers on his ear...
Sometimes though, the aversive wont be sufficient, and then what do you do... you try harder so you flick the chain harder, you pinch the ear harder... its all the same thing.... you set the electric collar to full level....
Where does it stop.
What it boils down to for me, is that i can get every bit as good a heel out of any of my dogs using positive reward based methods as you can from positive punishment.
So why use the unpleasant method?
And it is of course quite a bit harder to do mental or physical damage to a dog using the positive, pleasant method, whereas i see more wrongly used choke chains causing pain and fear and serious, irreparable damage to dogs than i have ever seen them used correctly (and even so i still dont buy that using the correctly doesnt cause at least anticipation of pain).
"How do you think the 'correction' of a choke chain works?
It works because the dog knows that to not heed it will incur unpleasant results." --- Yes, stressing the word "unpleasant," not that it will experience pain or injury. Are you against teachers in schools handing out detention slips to children who do not do as they are told? Detention is unpleasant, but not painful, and neither is the correction if used properly.
"Why do you think one shouldnt use a choke chain on a small dog?
The reason is, small dogs suffer from collapsed trachea more easily than bigger dogs, purely due to their size. If choke chains didnt cause pain and damage, then it would be fine to use them on small dogs." --- Choke chains are inappropriate for small dogs because to a person, what feels like a small tug on the chain can actually injure a small dog. I realize this perfectly and do not deny it. That's why they aren't appropriate for small dogs. You are not going to cause a bigger dog to suffer from a collapsed trachea by gently tugging on the collar; in fact, you are not going to inflict any pain whatsoever on a big dog by gently tugging on the collar. As I said, I tried one on myself and it didn't hurt. I wouldn't have used it if it did.
"It is a fact that choke chains can cause damage, even if you NEVER jerk one at all, a dog just pulling into one, over a period of time will do damage to the delicate processes in his throat." --- That would be an example of someone using it in an inappropriate manner. As I said, you don't use them if your dog still pulls on the lead.
"So, they work due to their aversive nature, ie they are unpleasant.
You cant deny that, you give a command, it is ignored you 'correct' by flicking the chain quickly." --- I didn't deny that and still don't. But again, stressing the word "unpleasant," not pain. Victoria uses sound aversion on her show. Not all aversion methods are bad IF used correctly. IF used correctly, the choke chain is no more unpleasant than sound aversion and probably less so because it's not as startling to the dog.
"If your dog is not paying attention to you, you could get his attention by pinching his ear hard, or flicking his ear, or ..... and if you were consistent in that, eventually your dog would learn before you pinched so hard, and eventually just by the touch of your fingers on his ear..." --- I didn't say so tug the chain harder and harder until the dog is scared of it, which seems to be what this analogy is suggesting I said. To do that would be to use the chain inappropriately and not something I would ever do or advocate anyone else doing.
"Sometimes though, the aversive wont be sufficient, and then what do you do... you try harder so you flick the chain harder, you pinch the ear harder... its all the same thing.... you set the electric collar to full level...." --- Again, I never said anything even remotely akin to what you are suggesting I said. To use the collar correctly, you DO NOT pull it harder. If the dog is able to walk on a leash without pulling, which I said was a prerequisite for using a choke chain, then simply tugging and releasing the chain gently and quickly is sufficient to show the dog where he's supposed to be walking. If it's not, then you need to go back to square one and teach your dog to walk on the lead without pulling. Tugging a choke chain in the method I am suggesting is not at all comparable to electrocuting a dog with an electric collar. I don't understand how you managed to read that into what I wrote.
"What it boils down to for me, is that i can get every bit as good a heel out of any of my dogs using positive reward based methods as you can from positive punishment." --- I'm sure you can and that's great. The trainer I worked with had over 20 years experience training and showing dogs and competing with them in agility, etc., and she found that a combination of rewards and non-painful aversion methods were the most effective for long term. It's not like she was teaching us to electrocute our dogs or beat them into submission. Many perfectly respectable dog trainers / owners use a combination of rewards and aversion methods.
All I wanted to say with my post was that WHEN USED PROPERLY, choke chains are not painful and do not cause injury. I don't want people to go to dog shows and think that the handlers who use these are abusing their dogs. I'm certainly not saying that I'm an expert in dog training or dog behavior, but the woman I worked with had a lot of credentials and absolutely loved her dogs.
I'm sorry this was so long, but I really felt that my post was unfairly misinterpreted and wanted to give a thorough reply.
It works because the dog knows that to not heed it will incur unpleasant results." --- Yes, stressing the word "unpleasant," not that it will experience pain or injury. Are you against teachers in schools handing out detention slips to children who do not do as they are told? Detention is unpleasant, but not painful, and neither is the correction if used properly.
"Why do you think one shouldnt use a choke chain on a small dog?
The reason is, small dogs suffer from collapsed trachea more easily than bigger dogs, purely due to their size. If choke chains didnt cause pain and damage, then it would be fine to use them on small dogs." --- Choke chains are inappropriate for small dogs because to a person, what feels like a small tug on the chain can actually injure a small dog. I realize this perfectly and do not deny it. That's why they aren't appropriate for small dogs. You are not going to cause a bigger dog to suffer from a collapsed trachea by gently tugging on the collar; in fact, you are not going to inflict any pain whatsoever on a big dog by gently tugging on the collar. As I said, I tried one on myself and it didn't hurt. I wouldn't have used it if it did.
"It is a fact that choke chains can cause damage, even if you NEVER jerk one at all, a dog just pulling into one, over a period of time will do damage to the delicate processes in his throat." --- That would be an example of someone using it in an inappropriate manner. As I said, you don't use them if your dog still pulls on the lead.
"So, they work due to their aversive nature, ie they are unpleasant.
You cant deny that, you give a command, it is ignored you 'correct' by flicking the chain quickly." --- I didn't deny that and still don't. But again, stressing the word "unpleasant," not pain. Victoria uses sound aversion on her show. Not all aversion methods are bad IF used correctly. IF used correctly, the choke chain is no more unpleasant than sound aversion and probably less so because it's not as startling to the dog.
"If your dog is not paying attention to you, you could get his attention by pinching his ear hard, or flicking his ear, or ..... and if you were consistent in that, eventually your dog would learn before you pinched so hard, and eventually just by the touch of your fingers on his ear..." --- I didn't say so tug the chain harder and harder until the dog is scared of it, which seems to be what this analogy is suggesting I said. To do that would be to use the chain inappropriately and not something I would ever do or advocate anyone else doing.
"Sometimes though, the aversive wont be sufficient, and then what do you do... you try harder so you flick the chain harder, you pinch the ear harder... its all the same thing.... you set the electric collar to full level...." --- Again, I never said anything even remotely akin to what you are suggesting I said. To use the collar correctly, you DO NOT pull it harder. If the dog is able to walk on a leash without pulling, which I said was a prerequisite for using a choke chain, then simply tugging and releasing the chain gently and quickly is sufficient to show the dog where he's supposed to be walking. If it's not, then you need to go back to square one and teach your dog to walk on the lead without pulling. Tugging a choke chain in the method I am suggesting is not at all comparable to electrocuting a dog with an electric collar. I don't understand how you managed to read that into what I wrote.
"What it boils down to for me, is that i can get every bit as good a heel out of any of my dogs using positive reward based methods as you can from positive punishment." --- I'm sure you can and that's great. The trainer I worked with had over 20 years experience training and showing dogs and competing with them in agility, etc., and she found that a combination of rewards and non-painful aversion methods were the most effective for long term. It's not like she was teaching us to electrocute our dogs or beat them into submission. Many perfectly respectable dog trainers / owners use a combination of rewards and aversion methods.
All I wanted to say with my post was that WHEN USED PROPERLY, choke chains are not painful and do not cause injury. I don't want people to go to dog shows and think that the handlers who use these are abusing their dogs. I'm certainly not saying that I'm an expert in dog training or dog behavior, but the woman I worked with had a lot of credentials and absolutely loved her dogs.
I'm sorry this was so long, but I really felt that my post was unfairly misinterpreted and wanted to give a thorough reply.
Im struggling to see what you would require a choke chain for if you already have a dog who walks to heel/walks on a loose lead.
I have been to a great number of training classes and I have yet to see anyone use a choke chain for the first time on a dog, without causing the dog pain or fear.
Even if after the initial use one then never causes actual pain with the chain the fact remains that the dog understands the choke chain to mean 'potential pain'.
Given it is entirely possible to have results every bit as successful and more without using a choke chain, I fail to see why one would use them if one is already capable of using positive methods.
As for the analogy of school and detentions im more than qualified to discuss that one.... in all my years of school detentions never EVER motivated me, but just one good word, one encouragement from a teacher would. As a result those who used detentions as a deterrent to bad behaviour would have the pleasure of my company every evening after school and those who rewarded me for good work, didnt.
I dont deny that from time to time an aversive method can be useful, however I dont use them except as a last resort.
They may appear frequently used by Victoria on IMOTD however later series show less use, and i would hazard a guess (as I cannot speak for Victoria herself), that the TV company who produce the show rate aversive methods as making far better TV than hours of gentle persuasion and positive methods. I dont doubt for a second that Victoria uses positive reward based methods in the first instance but of course we only see less than 30 minutes of the actual training which has probably taken weeks to achieve.
So whilst there may be a case for using aversive methods from time to time, and i wont disagree with that, the other major consideration I as a trainer/behaviourist have to take into account is, that to advise people to use such methods via the internet, where i cannot see if a person is using the method correctly, is inherently dangerous.
Postive methods are unlikely to cause harm if applied wrongly - get the timing wrong with some aversive methods, translate one persons 'flick of the chain' with anothers 'really sharp hard yank' and you CAN and people DO do serious damage to their dogs.
I would steer clear of advising people to use such methods on the net, you may be able to use a choke chain correctly (and we will have to agree to disagree on that point), but what other people are and are not capable of you dont know.
Em
I have been to a great number of training classes and I have yet to see anyone use a choke chain for the first time on a dog, without causing the dog pain or fear.
Even if after the initial use one then never causes actual pain with the chain the fact remains that the dog understands the choke chain to mean 'potential pain'.
Given it is entirely possible to have results every bit as successful and more without using a choke chain, I fail to see why one would use them if one is already capable of using positive methods.
As for the analogy of school and detentions im more than qualified to discuss that one.... in all my years of school detentions never EVER motivated me, but just one good word, one encouragement from a teacher would. As a result those who used detentions as a deterrent to bad behaviour would have the pleasure of my company every evening after school and those who rewarded me for good work, didnt.
I dont deny that from time to time an aversive method can be useful, however I dont use them except as a last resort.
They may appear frequently used by Victoria on IMOTD however later series show less use, and i would hazard a guess (as I cannot speak for Victoria herself), that the TV company who produce the show rate aversive methods as making far better TV than hours of gentle persuasion and positive methods. I dont doubt for a second that Victoria uses positive reward based methods in the first instance but of course we only see less than 30 minutes of the actual training which has probably taken weeks to achieve.
So whilst there may be a case for using aversive methods from time to time, and i wont disagree with that, the other major consideration I as a trainer/behaviourist have to take into account is, that to advise people to use such methods via the internet, where i cannot see if a person is using the method correctly, is inherently dangerous.
Postive methods are unlikely to cause harm if applied wrongly - get the timing wrong with some aversive methods, translate one persons 'flick of the chain' with anothers 'really sharp hard yank' and you CAN and people DO do serious damage to their dogs.
I would steer clear of advising people to use such methods on the net, you may be able to use a choke chain correctly (and we will have to agree to disagree on that point), but what other people are and are not capable of you dont know.
Em
Well, we were teaching them to not just walk politely on the lead, but to walk within a very specific zone right next to our side so precise that the dog had to really concentrate on where their walker's feet were the entire time. It's not something we'd do for long walks, but for getting out of situations where loose dogs were around since loose dogs are less likely to attack a dog who is completely focused on her owner's feet rather than on looking at the dogs. Or for walking by small children who are afraid of dogs, going to the vet, etc. We didn't use the chains forever, just at first to teach the dog what we wanted from her.
I agree that it's bad to advise a method that could cause harm if used improperly online. I didn't mean to recommend them, just to say I haven't experienced them as bad or painful. I have no credentials to recommend anything short of the basic things that I've got experience with. If a potential trainer uses them, see how they're using them before assuming it must be for sadistic purposes.
Why are aversion methods so bad? Another thing the trainer told me to do to stop my dog jumping on the kitchen counter to steal food was to loosely tape strings of jingly bells to the counter. Anytime she jumped up there, the bells would fall down and jingle. After a few times of this happening, she stopped jumping up there and never did it again even after I took the bells down. (She was 3 when we did that and 12 now). It really helped to break her bad habit. Lots of things that dogs want to do have a natural aversion attached to them, i.e., don't sniff the kitty or she will swat at you, don't lick toads or else you will get sick, avoid the vaccuum because it is loud, etc. It kind of seems like attaching an aversion to an undesirable behavior wouldn't be any more traumatizing for the dog than the natural aversions it encounters every day.
Anyway, this is a really interesting subject so thanks for all of your replies!
I agree that it's bad to advise a method that could cause harm if used improperly online. I didn't mean to recommend them, just to say I haven't experienced them as bad or painful. I have no credentials to recommend anything short of the basic things that I've got experience with. If a potential trainer uses them, see how they're using them before assuming it must be for sadistic purposes.
Why are aversion methods so bad? Another thing the trainer told me to do to stop my dog jumping on the kitchen counter to steal food was to loosely tape strings of jingly bells to the counter. Anytime she jumped up there, the bells would fall down and jingle. After a few times of this happening, she stopped jumping up there and never did it again even after I took the bells down. (She was 3 when we did that and 12 now). It really helped to break her bad habit. Lots of things that dogs want to do have a natural aversion attached to them, i.e., don't sniff the kitty or she will swat at you, don't lick toads or else you will get sick, avoid the vaccuum because it is loud, etc. It kind of seems like attaching an aversion to an undesirable behavior wouldn't be any more traumatizing for the dog than the natural aversions it encounters every day.
Anyway, this is a really interesting subject so thanks for all of your replies!
Asides from the basic principal that aversives train by fear (which in some cases is not that bad a thing, we dont stick fingers in the fire for fear of pain, this saves us getting burnt):
What we may think its an obviously linked event, ie take food from counter, scary noise happens, may not be quite so clear cut for the dog.
Going back to the choke chain example.
You walk your dog down the street, he sees a cat and looks at it, you correct wtih the choke chain.
If that is a nervous dog, because he is focussing on the cat at the time the aversive, the correction with the chain, happens, he MAY conclude that cats = unpleasant thing.
You could get away with this, if you have a dog who has had corrections for a great deal of things and generalises that corrections happen for looking at anything.
You may not if you have a dog whose first experience of correction, or who is particularly nervous of cats for whatever reason... if most of his corrections occur when there are cats that he is focussing on... its quite easy to see he may link the unpleasant correction with the cat and NOT his behaviour.
Another stronger example of aversive training is a case where use of an e-collar went wrong.
The dog was shocked with teh collar for aggressing at small dogs. He eventually stopped barking and lunging at small dogs, and the owner presumed this meant his behaviour was cured.
However in reality, he linked small dogs with pain, small dogs caused that pain and unfortunately one day he was given the opportunity to meet small dogs off the lead, whereupon he killed one.
In fact this dogs initial behaviour wasnt aggression, it was frustration at not being allowed to play, but it turned into real aggression because he thought the source of the pain was the small dogs, not his behaviour.
Now that is an extreme case, and fortunately most sane people dont use e-collars, recognising that causing that level of pain is cruel.
However there is a tv program recommending rattle bottles quite frequently. This is a sound aversive, and because no one hits the dog with the bottle, its just rattled or thrown to the floor, its assumed its a harmless method.
I have seen dogs who have had a rattle bottle used on them, to stop them doing all manner of things (frequently barkign and lunging on the lead, and to teach a 'leave' off items on the floor.
When used to teach a leave (ie the rattle bottle is used every time the dog looks towards or approaches an item on the floor), they will eventually teach a dog to shut down - all his curiosity leads to punishment, end result he shuts down and shows no interest in anything.
When used to stop lunging and barking, again the dog can easily associate the punishment with the thing he was aggressing at, and not his behaviour, and so whilst it may lessen the symptoms, the lunging and barking, if the aggression is based in fear, it wont improve the dogs attitude towards the trigger.
The big reason i dont use aversives where possible, is because i dont want my relationship with my dogs to be like that.
Using a human comparison.
My best friend who spends a lot of time here is frightened of spiders, she reacts by squealing and jumping around, which during Eastenders is quite annoying.
I could stop her doing this by emptying a bucket of water over her head every time she sees a spider... or by sharply tightening a chain about her neck.
In the long run, she would stop reacting to the spiders, of course she would.
In the long run though, she wouldnt want to spend time in my house.
Either way, whilst she would no longer react to spiders, you bet your life she wouldnt like them any better and would probably like them even less, now she has a valid reason for disliking them because every time she sees one initially, she gets a yank in the neck or a bucket of water on her head. She wont react but inside she will tense up and anticipate the correction.
I could also stop her by getting her to view spiders as a positive thing - if i gave her £10 whenever she saw a spider and sat quietly, she would gradually see spiders as a good thing, and she would actively welcome the opportunity to come to my spider infested house and earn lots of £10's.
Going back to your dog, if a walk with you means the possibility of being corrected, thats not very nice, even if there are treats available as well.
If going for a walk with you JUST means the opportunity to earn loads of treats, well thats very nice, ill come too!
Teaching a close heel neednt involve a choke chain, use a clicker.
That way your dog learns that concentrating on you and walking really close = random click + treat.
If you do an off lead heel.... how do you reinforce the correct behaviour, whats the motivation there to heel closely, when you cant correct with the choke chain?
I find it quite easy to not need to correct when doing heelwork, because my dog (and ok its easy with my collie x i do admit, i wont get such good heelwork out of my saluki), is so fixated on what i may have, and when i may click and reward him, he couldnt care less if there were 100 cats doing the can-can in front of him. Ive set him up so that he is extremely unlikely to fail, thus extremely unlikely to ever NEED correction, if i felt he did need correction i would question if what i am doing adn the way i am acting is sufficiently captivating for him, if its not then it is my method that needs correcting, not his.
It boils down to this, would you rather your dog work for you because he wants to, or because he has to or you cause him unpleasantness?
As for stealing things off counters... dont leave things lying around! Its that easy (and no, i dont have tiny dogs who cant reach counters, i have devious lurchers and will shortly have a deerhound!).
What we may think its an obviously linked event, ie take food from counter, scary noise happens, may not be quite so clear cut for the dog.
Going back to the choke chain example.
You walk your dog down the street, he sees a cat and looks at it, you correct wtih the choke chain.
If that is a nervous dog, because he is focussing on the cat at the time the aversive, the correction with the chain, happens, he MAY conclude that cats = unpleasant thing.
You could get away with this, if you have a dog who has had corrections for a great deal of things and generalises that corrections happen for looking at anything.
You may not if you have a dog whose first experience of correction, or who is particularly nervous of cats for whatever reason... if most of his corrections occur when there are cats that he is focussing on... its quite easy to see he may link the unpleasant correction with the cat and NOT his behaviour.
Another stronger example of aversive training is a case where use of an e-collar went wrong.
The dog was shocked with teh collar for aggressing at small dogs. He eventually stopped barking and lunging at small dogs, and the owner presumed this meant his behaviour was cured.
However in reality, he linked small dogs with pain, small dogs caused that pain and unfortunately one day he was given the opportunity to meet small dogs off the lead, whereupon he killed one.
In fact this dogs initial behaviour wasnt aggression, it was frustration at not being allowed to play, but it turned into real aggression because he thought the source of the pain was the small dogs, not his behaviour.
Now that is an extreme case, and fortunately most sane people dont use e-collars, recognising that causing that level of pain is cruel.
However there is a tv program recommending rattle bottles quite frequently. This is a sound aversive, and because no one hits the dog with the bottle, its just rattled or thrown to the floor, its assumed its a harmless method.
I have seen dogs who have had a rattle bottle used on them, to stop them doing all manner of things (frequently barkign and lunging on the lead, and to teach a 'leave' off items on the floor.
When used to teach a leave (ie the rattle bottle is used every time the dog looks towards or approaches an item on the floor), they will eventually teach a dog to shut down - all his curiosity leads to punishment, end result he shuts down and shows no interest in anything.
When used to stop lunging and barking, again the dog can easily associate the punishment with the thing he was aggressing at, and not his behaviour, and so whilst it may lessen the symptoms, the lunging and barking, if the aggression is based in fear, it wont improve the dogs attitude towards the trigger.
The big reason i dont use aversives where possible, is because i dont want my relationship with my dogs to be like that.
Using a human comparison.
My best friend who spends a lot of time here is frightened of spiders, she reacts by squealing and jumping around, which during Eastenders is quite annoying.
I could stop her doing this by emptying a bucket of water over her head every time she sees a spider... or by sharply tightening a chain about her neck.
In the long run, she would stop reacting to the spiders, of course she would.
In the long run though, she wouldnt want to spend time in my house.
Either way, whilst she would no longer react to spiders, you bet your life she wouldnt like them any better and would probably like them even less, now she has a valid reason for disliking them because every time she sees one initially, she gets a yank in the neck or a bucket of water on her head. She wont react but inside she will tense up and anticipate the correction.
I could also stop her by getting her to view spiders as a positive thing - if i gave her £10 whenever she saw a spider and sat quietly, she would gradually see spiders as a good thing, and she would actively welcome the opportunity to come to my spider infested house and earn lots of £10's.
Going back to your dog, if a walk with you means the possibility of being corrected, thats not very nice, even if there are treats available as well.
If going for a walk with you JUST means the opportunity to earn loads of treats, well thats very nice, ill come too!
Teaching a close heel neednt involve a choke chain, use a clicker.
That way your dog learns that concentrating on you and walking really close = random click + treat.
If you do an off lead heel.... how do you reinforce the correct behaviour, whats the motivation there to heel closely, when you cant correct with the choke chain?
I find it quite easy to not need to correct when doing heelwork, because my dog (and ok its easy with my collie x i do admit, i wont get such good heelwork out of my saluki), is so fixated on what i may have, and when i may click and reward him, he couldnt care less if there were 100 cats doing the can-can in front of him. Ive set him up so that he is extremely unlikely to fail, thus extremely unlikely to ever NEED correction, if i felt he did need correction i would question if what i am doing adn the way i am acting is sufficiently captivating for him, if its not then it is my method that needs correcting, not his.
It boils down to this, would you rather your dog work for you because he wants to, or because he has to or you cause him unpleasantness?
As for stealing things off counters... dont leave things lying around! Its that easy (and no, i dont have tiny dogs who cant reach counters, i have devious lurchers and will shortly have a deerhound!).
Like you I've tried a choke chain (on my arm) but unlike you I *did* find it painful. So there we have two different people with two different pain thresholds, much like dogs. What hurts and upsets one is water off a ducks back to another.
The problem is, you don't know how your dog will react until you've done it, even then unless your dog yelps loudly how do you know how he perceives the choke?
Proper competition heelwork where the dog has to be aware of where his whole body is, what his back legs are doing, where his head is, concentrating on his handler all the time, is VERY hard for dogs. They need to focus completely on the task at hand, and in my opinion it's wrong to force that concentration by using fear. I use a clicker with mine, and I get good heelwork from them, and because there are no bad consequences for not doing it I can build up their concentration and skill at THEIR pace, not what I think it should be, and I can know categorically they are loving every minute of it. They want to keep going long after I do, and I get a wag and a trot from them that I just wouldn't get with any aversive.
If a dog is tired, confused or wanting to play with other dogs, it would take something more than something mildly unpleasant to stop them. At my training classes I often have dogs who, when they join, want to go and see the other dogs and will strain on the end on the lead to go and play, sometimes their owners will shout at them, but even if their owners don't the feeling of the lead pulling on their necks is uncomfortable and unpleasant, but it's not enough to stop them. There are two ways to stop it, firstly using a more severe correction (and if a choke chain is more effective than shouting and pulling on a flat collar then it is more than 'a bit unpleasant') which is counter productive, it would only make them not enjoy being around other dogs. The other way is to distract them, ask them to do simple behaviours that they know (sits, downs etc) to get them paying attenion to their owners because they choose to, or give them a stuffed kong to occupy it through the boring parts of me talking. It works instantly, and as such when the dogs do get to meet the other dogs there, they are happy to do so and don't worry about what might happen.
I have clients tell me the dog walks great on the lead everywhere, the only place they pull is coming into the hall for classes because they love it so much, that speaks volumes to me.
The simple fact for me is, I don't NEED to use anything unpleasant, I train kindly and I get results. The dogs don't choose to walk in an unnatural manner next to my leg, they do that because I want them to, what right do I have to inflict pain on them because they're not doing it the way I want them to?
Although I don't condone it, I can understand it more for loose lead walking where it's important for a dog to walk well in order to get proper exercise (dogs who pull lots get walked less) but to cause pain for my own purely selfish purposes? I'm sorry but I just think that's wrong.
For the record I don't agree with Victoria's use of sound aversion in the first series, but am pleased to see it almost completely erradicated in the more recent ones. Like all good trainers Victoria moves with the times, keeps up to date with current research and modifies her thinking where necessary.
Also, a degree in animal behaviour doesn't make an expert in dog training unfortunately. A lot of animal behaviour studies focus on ALL species and doesn't centre around behaviour modification for companion animals. Even if it did, it's all theory based which, when you get into the real world is pointless. It's like reading a book on car mechanics and then thinking it makes you a forumula one driver.
Before you ask, yes I have used choke chains in the past, and there has been fall out from it. The first ever training class I went to encouraged their use, and through them I turned a frustrated, playful dog into a fearful and aggressive one. There is no doubt in my mind he viewed them as more than 'unpleasant', he would cower when he heard the noise, he dreaded going into the training environment. I'm very grateful that I was able to see that for what it was, and that those experiences, as awful as they were, led me to study more about dog behaviour. It enabled me to eventually become a trainer myself, helping people get well behaved, happy dogs who trust their owners and have no reason to fear them.
Oh, one other problem with using aversives, dogs are clever animals and pretty soon work out how to escape unpleasant experiences. One of my dogs was rescued from a home where his training had consisted of punishments, and he knew once he was a certain distance away from me, I couldn't physically make him do anything and as such he was only obedient when right next to me (part of the reason his old owners gave him up, he had no recall and was constantly escaping from the house). Within a week of reward based training, he had a great recall, I used to demonstrate it outside his old owners house before they moved, just to make a point. Within a month he stopped trying to bolt whenever the front door was opened, and if he did he would come back when called.
He now comes to puppy class with me because he's so great at teaching bolshy pups some manners, and ignoring shy puppies, giving them the confidence to come and play with him. All my clients are impressed with his obedience and general attitude to life. He's a million miles away from the scared, growly and defiant dog he used to be, and is a walking advert for reward based training.
The problem is, you don't know how your dog will react until you've done it, even then unless your dog yelps loudly how do you know how he perceives the choke?
Proper competition heelwork where the dog has to be aware of where his whole body is, what his back legs are doing, where his head is, concentrating on his handler all the time, is VERY hard for dogs. They need to focus completely on the task at hand, and in my opinion it's wrong to force that concentration by using fear. I use a clicker with mine, and I get good heelwork from them, and because there are no bad consequences for not doing it I can build up their concentration and skill at THEIR pace, not what I think it should be, and I can know categorically they are loving every minute of it. They want to keep going long after I do, and I get a wag and a trot from them that I just wouldn't get with any aversive.
If a dog is tired, confused or wanting to play with other dogs, it would take something more than something mildly unpleasant to stop them. At my training classes I often have dogs who, when they join, want to go and see the other dogs and will strain on the end on the lead to go and play, sometimes their owners will shout at them, but even if their owners don't the feeling of the lead pulling on their necks is uncomfortable and unpleasant, but it's not enough to stop them. There are two ways to stop it, firstly using a more severe correction (and if a choke chain is more effective than shouting and pulling on a flat collar then it is more than 'a bit unpleasant') which is counter productive, it would only make them not enjoy being around other dogs. The other way is to distract them, ask them to do simple behaviours that they know (sits, downs etc) to get them paying attenion to their owners because they choose to, or give them a stuffed kong to occupy it through the boring parts of me talking. It works instantly, and as such when the dogs do get to meet the other dogs there, they are happy to do so and don't worry about what might happen.
I have clients tell me the dog walks great on the lead everywhere, the only place they pull is coming into the hall for classes because they love it so much, that speaks volumes to me.
The simple fact for me is, I don't NEED to use anything unpleasant, I train kindly and I get results. The dogs don't choose to walk in an unnatural manner next to my leg, they do that because I want them to, what right do I have to inflict pain on them because they're not doing it the way I want them to?
Although I don't condone it, I can understand it more for loose lead walking where it's important for a dog to walk well in order to get proper exercise (dogs who pull lots get walked less) but to cause pain for my own purely selfish purposes? I'm sorry but I just think that's wrong.
For the record I don't agree with Victoria's use of sound aversion in the first series, but am pleased to see it almost completely erradicated in the more recent ones. Like all good trainers Victoria moves with the times, keeps up to date with current research and modifies her thinking where necessary.
Also, a degree in animal behaviour doesn't make an expert in dog training unfortunately. A lot of animal behaviour studies focus on ALL species and doesn't centre around behaviour modification for companion animals. Even if it did, it's all theory based which, when you get into the real world is pointless. It's like reading a book on car mechanics and then thinking it makes you a forumula one driver.
Before you ask, yes I have used choke chains in the past, and there has been fall out from it. The first ever training class I went to encouraged their use, and through them I turned a frustrated, playful dog into a fearful and aggressive one. There is no doubt in my mind he viewed them as more than 'unpleasant', he would cower when he heard the noise, he dreaded going into the training environment. I'm very grateful that I was able to see that for what it was, and that those experiences, as awful as they were, led me to study more about dog behaviour. It enabled me to eventually become a trainer myself, helping people get well behaved, happy dogs who trust their owners and have no reason to fear them.
Oh, one other problem with using aversives, dogs are clever animals and pretty soon work out how to escape unpleasant experiences. One of my dogs was rescued from a home where his training had consisted of punishments, and he knew once he was a certain distance away from me, I couldn't physically make him do anything and as such he was only obedient when right next to me (part of the reason his old owners gave him up, he had no recall and was constantly escaping from the house). Within a week of reward based training, he had a great recall, I used to demonstrate it outside his old owners house before they moved, just to make a point. Within a month he stopped trying to bolt whenever the front door was opened, and if he did he would come back when called.
He now comes to puppy class with me because he's so great at teaching bolshy pups some manners, and ignoring shy puppies, giving them the confidence to come and play with him. All my clients are impressed with his obedience and general attitude to life. He's a million miles away from the scared, growly and defiant dog he used to be, and is a walking advert for reward based training.
Eek! The choke chain made your dog fearful and aggressive?! That's really sad and must've been an awful experience for you. I'm sorry to hear it. 
I don't know, I mean, yes I shouldn't leave things on my counter, but it's my kitchen and I like being able to set my food on the counter. I couldn't just stand around giving her treats for not jumping on the counter - then she'd just be fat and still steal food. Before, I couldn't even leave bagged bread on it, or paper towels, or soap, etc. My dog never acted fearful or aggressive. In fact, when they heard the jingle of the chains at the class when it was time to practice heel, all the dogs would happily run over to us. Not one dog I saw there cowered in fear or anything like that. My trainer's dogs never acted fearful or aggressive or shy or anything. They were all super friendly and enthusiastic about making the trainer happy. And yes, my dog can heel like that off lead, because as I said, they were rewarded for good behavior.
Maybe I just got lucky and my dog has such a good temperament that none of the aversions I used when initially training her had a negative effect on her. I guess it also goes to show the difference in popular training methods 9 years ago vs. now. I don't want to hurt my dog though, so I won't be training any future dogs like that... unless it's the only way of getting them to stop jumping on the counter. Sorry to hear about all of your negative experiences. I think the methods my trainer taught us were a lot milder than the ones you guys are talking about though. If our dogs were tired or no longer interested, we'd take a break let our dogs play for a bit, not correct them. Plus, if my trainer's dogs were to act aggressive/fearful/shy, she wouldn't have had such success in the show ring, so her methods couldn't have been as harsh as the aversions you guys are talking about. I'm sure that new training classes will teach me the way you guys are talking about if I ever get another dog, and I am happy about that. Thanks for all the info! 
I don't know, I mean, yes I shouldn't leave things on my counter, but it's my kitchen and I like being able to set my food on the counter. I couldn't just stand around giving her treats for not jumping on the counter - then she'd just be fat and still steal food. Before, I couldn't even leave bagged bread on it, or paper towels, or soap, etc. My dog never acted fearful or aggressive. In fact, when they heard the jingle of the chains at the class when it was time to practice heel, all the dogs would happily run over to us. Not one dog I saw there cowered in fear or anything like that. My trainer's dogs never acted fearful or aggressive or shy or anything. They were all super friendly and enthusiastic about making the trainer happy. And yes, my dog can heel like that off lead, because as I said, they were rewarded for good behavior.Maybe I just got lucky and my dog has such a good temperament that none of the aversions I used when initially training her had a negative effect on her. I guess it also goes to show the difference in popular training methods 9 years ago vs. now. I don't want to hurt my dog though, so I won't be training any future dogs like that... unless it's the only way of getting them to stop jumping on the counter. Sorry to hear about all of your negative experiences.
I think the methods my trainer taught us were a lot milder than the ones you guys are talking about though. If our dogs were tired or no longer interested, we'd take a break let our dogs play for a bit, not correct them. Plus, if my trainer's dogs were to act aggressive/fearful/shy, she wouldn't have had such success in the show ring, so her methods couldn't have been as harsh as the aversions you guys are talking about. I'm sure that new training classes will teach me the way you guys are talking about if I ever get another dog, and I am happy about that. Thanks for all the info! 