I have a 2 year old sheperd who has had no socialisation with other dogs. She leaps and barks at them when ever she sees them. She isn't aggresive unless they bark at her first, and she seems to be worse with smaller dogs.
Any ideas on how to get over this as is is causing problems when we take she out.
unsocialised German Sheperd
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Lis & Addy
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm
I'm dealing with a very similar problem with my year-old Chinese Crested. She was originally sold as a show-quality puppy, and returned to the breeder because she "grew too tall." The truth appears to be somewhat different, as she is (barely) within the standard for the breed. During the months she was with her orignal buyer, she was apparently never socialized with other dogs--and then the buyer got two male puppies. Shortly after that she decided that Addy was "too tall."
(Let me add here, that, yes, I've been to the breeder's home, and no, this isn't the result of the breeder's mistakes or mismanagement of Addy's puppyhood.)
Addy, unfortunately, DOES initiate barking.
All my neighbors think I have the sweetest, well-trained, wonderful dog, except the ones who've had the misfortune to walk their dogs at the same time I'm walking mine.
However, we've made enormous progress. She gets treats and praise and petting whenever we see another dog--at whatever distance, as long as she's aware of it--and remains calm. I've set up meetings with calm, well-trained dogs and let Addy get close to them at her own pace. And I've intentionally walked her past yards where there are securely fenced-in dogs, rewarded calm behavior as long as it lasts, and let her be as close to or as far from the fence as she felt comfortable.
We now have several dogs we "visit" on our walks, and we've had successful play dates with a neighbor's cocker spaniel and my sister's Lab. On Friday morning, we even had a successful (i.e., calm and doggy-polite) chance meeting with a neighbor walking his 5-month-old pit bull puppy! We're not all the way there, yet, but it's such wonderful progress for less than three months!
Be patient, be calm, reward the behavior you want, try not to punish the behavior you don't want because it only adds to the dog's stress.
(The same approach has worked with motorcycles, too. Next up, the really scary challenges: bicycles, and runners!)
(Let me add here, that, yes, I've been to the breeder's home, and no, this isn't the result of the breeder's mistakes or mismanagement of Addy's puppyhood.)
Addy, unfortunately, DOES initiate barking.
All my neighbors think I have the sweetest, well-trained, wonderful dog, except the ones who've had the misfortune to walk their dogs at the same time I'm walking mine.
However, we've made enormous progress. She gets treats and praise and petting whenever we see another dog--at whatever distance, as long as she's aware of it--and remains calm. I've set up meetings with calm, well-trained dogs and let Addy get close to them at her own pace. And I've intentionally walked her past yards where there are securely fenced-in dogs, rewarded calm behavior as long as it lasts, and let her be as close to or as far from the fence as she felt comfortable.
We now have several dogs we "visit" on our walks, and we've had successful play dates with a neighbor's cocker spaniel and my sister's Lab. On Friday morning, we even had a successful (i.e., calm and doggy-polite) chance meeting with a neighbor walking his 5-month-old pit bull puppy! We're not all the way there, yet, but it's such wonderful progress for less than three months!
Be patient, be calm, reward the behavior you want, try not to punish the behavior you don't want because it only adds to the dog's stress.
(The same approach has worked with motorcycles, too. Next up, the really scary challenges: bicycles, and runners!)
I cant add much to Lis&Addys post really.
Reward good behaviour, and make a note of when that occurs, ie is your dog quiet when she can see another dog a long distance away and its not heading towards her.
Ignore bad behaviour, in the mean time train a different respose, so train her to step behind you, or to sit, or to play with a toy, and gradually introduce this when she sees another dog. Start off at the distance where she doesnt react but is aware of the other dogs presence, work your way up to being closer.
If you can, find a safe friend to walk her with, ignore silly behaviour and parallel walk until she shuts up and can be allowed to sniff the other dog, eventually when they know one another fairly well (after a few parallel walks), see if they can play off lead.
I highly suspect that part of the issue is she wants to play with other dogs, but cant and cant handle frustration.
Equally though she doesnt know what is appropriate behaviour around other dogs so you cant just allow her off lead to play with just any dog.
Try as much as you can to avoid situations where you inadvertently meet antoher dog, if you do come across one, dont walk her straight at it, try to go round in a wide arc instead. This stops the direct eye contact that dogs find very rude and threatening.
Hth
Em
Reward good behaviour, and make a note of when that occurs, ie is your dog quiet when she can see another dog a long distance away and its not heading towards her.
Ignore bad behaviour, in the mean time train a different respose, so train her to step behind you, or to sit, or to play with a toy, and gradually introduce this when she sees another dog. Start off at the distance where she doesnt react but is aware of the other dogs presence, work your way up to being closer.
If you can, find a safe friend to walk her with, ignore silly behaviour and parallel walk until she shuts up and can be allowed to sniff the other dog, eventually when they know one another fairly well (after a few parallel walks), see if they can play off lead.
I highly suspect that part of the issue is she wants to play with other dogs, but cant and cant handle frustration.
Equally though she doesnt know what is appropriate behaviour around other dogs so you cant just allow her off lead to play with just any dog.
Try as much as you can to avoid situations where you inadvertently meet antoher dog, if you do come across one, dont walk her straight at it, try to go round in a wide arc instead. This stops the direct eye contact that dogs find very rude and threatening.
Hth
Em
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Lis & Addy
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm
Thanks for your advise, that is the way we are trying to train her, it's just good to hear that the methods are working for someone else, as some times you feel like you aren't making any head way.
When we first got Bella from the rescue centre (5 days ago) we were told that she was 5-6 and had been kept way from dogs for 12 months as she was aggresive. We have since found out that she is 18-24 months, and everything makes more sence now, she is a pup who was been in isolation for most of her life and doesn't know how to interact with other dogs.
We have had one good meeting with an old lab who just sat there, and as her owner put it was to much of a snob to play. After the first excitment of walking to another dog was over she wasn't fussed and paid little attension to the other dog.
My main fear is dogs who are off the lead. Bella is very strong but is controlable on a harness and a halti head collar because we can take her out of the situation if it gets to much, but we had a problem when a dog off the lead wouldn't leave her alone and the owner wasn't fussed.
When we first got Bella from the rescue centre (5 days ago) we were told that she was 5-6 and had been kept way from dogs for 12 months as she was aggresive. We have since found out that she is 18-24 months, and everything makes more sence now, she is a pup who was been in isolation for most of her life and doesn't know how to interact with other dogs.
We have had one good meeting with an old lab who just sat there, and as her owner put it was to much of a snob to play. After the first excitment of walking to another dog was over she wasn't fussed and paid little attension to the other dog.
My main fear is dogs who are off the lead. Bella is very strong but is controlable on a harness and a halti head collar because we can take her out of the situation if it gets to much, but we had a problem when a dog off the lead wouldn't leave her alone and the owner wasn't fussed.
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Lis & Addy
- Posts: 204
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:27 pm
Poor Bella! That sounds even worse than Addy's experience!
Yes, the methods do work; it just takes time and patience. I do remember how frustrated and worried I was when I'd only had Addy a week or two. It was just time enough to discover how bad her dog socialization was, and not time enough to have made any progress at all in curing the problem.
Keep at it, and there will come a point when you realize that she's had a bunch of positive experiences, and that your definition of "bad encounter" has, um, changed a bit. That it's something you would have considered fairly good during these first few weeks! Because she won't be having those really bad encounters anymore, or at least very rarely.
(Last night, even my brother-in-law commented on what excellent progress Addy has made. Gloat, gloat.)
Yes, the methods do work; it just takes time and patience. I do remember how frustrated and worried I was when I'd only had Addy a week or two. It was just time enough to discover how bad her dog socialization was, and not time enough to have made any progress at all in curing the problem.
Keep at it, and there will come a point when you realize that she's had a bunch of positive experiences, and that your definition of "bad encounter" has, um, changed a bit. That it's something you would have considered fairly good during these first few weeks! Because she won't be having those really bad encounters anymore, or at least very rarely.
(Last night, even my brother-in-law commented on what excellent progress Addy has made. Gloat, gloat.)
I have a similar problem.
Sage, my 2 year old American Bulldog, LOVES to play. True to his breed he's still got a lot of puppy in him at 2 years old!
We've worked together a LOT, and are doing pretty well with most basic commands (sit, down, stay, touch, look, etc.) but we have a lot of trouble with focus when we pass people or dogs on walks.
Sage got his CGC in June, so I know he's capable of walking nicely with people and doggies around, but we seem to have hit some regression. He used to go to dog parks, and was VERY successful there. He's a generally submissive dog, but we stopped visiting the parks after a negative incident (not Sage's initiation). The main problem was bias against him - he's perceived as a pit bull by almost anyone who meets him and therefore inherits the stigma.
Back on topic: I think that because he has no regular dog interaction anymore he gets completely over stimulated by seeing other dogs. This causes him to wag his whole back-side furiously, as well as whine-bark.
Usually as soon as I see another dog in the area, I go the other way. Often the other dog + handler turns around too. Despite his obvious wagging and yearning to play people seem to take Sage's excitement for aggression. (I won't go into how everyone just LOVES the cute little ankle-nipping 10lb dogs in the neighborhood!)
If Sage notices a dog but remains good and calm, he gets to proceed past the dog (on the other side of the street), and gets praise and kibble. This is VERY SLOWLY having an impact. One of my big problems is when we're walking down a sidewalk and a dog and handler walk out the doors as we're passing, or vice versa. I live in a townhome community and the doors are only about twenty feet from the walk. When this happens I usually get my excited voice out to distract Sage while walking swiftly away. Sometimes I think I may be getting Sage excited instead of distracted. :-/
In addition to praising for good behavior, Sage now has a nightly workout routine of pulling a drag sled around the neighborhood grass. This serves several purposes: Sage shows a MARKED improvement on walks that occur soon after his pulling workouts. A tired dog is a good dog!
Also, people in the neighborhood are very inquisitive about Sage's pulling. Sage pulls on the "work" command, even when he's "dog tired." I have had a lot of questions from neighbors who had previously turned away from Sage and I. They ask "How long did it take you to teach him how to do that?", "Does he like to do that?", "Wow he's a really cool dog!" and the inevitable "Is he a pitbull?"
A few have even waited until the end of our session to say hello and give Sage a pet! To Sage meeting a new person and sitting on their feet for pets is the greatest reward (next to dinner).
In any case, I specifically came to this forum looking for advice on teaching him to be more calm on walks where other doggies are around. Thanks for the info and sorry for the rambling!
Sage, my 2 year old American Bulldog, LOVES to play. True to his breed he's still got a lot of puppy in him at 2 years old!
We've worked together a LOT, and are doing pretty well with most basic commands (sit, down, stay, touch, look, etc.) but we have a lot of trouble with focus when we pass people or dogs on walks.
Sage got his CGC in June, so I know he's capable of walking nicely with people and doggies around, but we seem to have hit some regression. He used to go to dog parks, and was VERY successful there. He's a generally submissive dog, but we stopped visiting the parks after a negative incident (not Sage's initiation). The main problem was bias against him - he's perceived as a pit bull by almost anyone who meets him and therefore inherits the stigma.
Back on topic: I think that because he has no regular dog interaction anymore he gets completely over stimulated by seeing other dogs. This causes him to wag his whole back-side furiously, as well as whine-bark.
Usually as soon as I see another dog in the area, I go the other way. Often the other dog + handler turns around too. Despite his obvious wagging and yearning to play people seem to take Sage's excitement for aggression. (I won't go into how everyone just LOVES the cute little ankle-nipping 10lb dogs in the neighborhood!)
If Sage notices a dog but remains good and calm, he gets to proceed past the dog (on the other side of the street), and gets praise and kibble. This is VERY SLOWLY having an impact. One of my big problems is when we're walking down a sidewalk and a dog and handler walk out the doors as we're passing, or vice versa. I live in a townhome community and the doors are only about twenty feet from the walk. When this happens I usually get my excited voice out to distract Sage while walking swiftly away. Sometimes I think I may be getting Sage excited instead of distracted. :-/
In addition to praising for good behavior, Sage now has a nightly workout routine of pulling a drag sled around the neighborhood grass. This serves several purposes: Sage shows a MARKED improvement on walks that occur soon after his pulling workouts. A tired dog is a good dog!
Also, people in the neighborhood are very inquisitive about Sage's pulling. Sage pulls on the "work" command, even when he's "dog tired." I have had a lot of questions from neighbors who had previously turned away from Sage and I. They ask "How long did it take you to teach him how to do that?", "Does he like to do that?", "Wow he's a really cool dog!" and the inevitable "Is he a pitbull?"
A few have even waited until the end of our session to say hello and give Sage a pet! To Sage meeting a new person and sitting on their feet for pets is the greatest reward (next to dinner).
In any case, I specifically came to this forum looking for advice on teaching him to be more calm on walks where other doggies are around. Thanks for the info and sorry for the rambling!
Sage is my 3 year old darling American Bulldog (CGC, PH). Lola, another American Bulldog, is 7 months (as of May 2008).
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Ocelot0411
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am
Hiya,
You've got a pretty good start on things there and you clearly know the reasoning behind your dogs behaviour.
You have his phyiscal needs sorted out with walks and pulling work... but what may be missing is the mental aspect.
Have a look at the clicker training thread and see if you can use that, it marks much more clearly correct behaviour that you are rewarding for and tends to cut out the confusion that can arise when using the voice to mark good behaviour (ie saying 'good boy' etc).
Also... he does need to interact with other dogs, if you can try to find some calm, sensible dogs he can play with, then you can teach him that sometimes, when you say so, he can play, and sometimes he cant.
If you do that then you can cut down on his frustration at not being allowed to interact with other dogs. It is hard when you have a breed like this, because people do assume frustrated behaviour is the same as aggression, so I would perhaps seek out owners of similar breeds (having made sure their dogs are friendly and not too silly), and ask them.
If you do meet someone willing to let your dog meet and greet with theirs, the way to introduce the two dogs is to walk together, at first a good distance apart, in the same direction. Gradually get the two dogs closer and closer, walking at a brisk pace. When they accept one anothers presence you can allow a few seconds worth of greeting sniffs and then carry on walking, eventually when you think both dogs are happy you can let them off lead in a safe place.
Do avoid walking head on to a strange dog, as thats rather threatening (direct eye contact), instead go in a wide arc or diagonally.
He sounds like a wonderful dog so I'm sure with care you'll have no problems,
Em
You've got a pretty good start on things there and you clearly know the reasoning behind your dogs behaviour.
You have his phyiscal needs sorted out with walks and pulling work... but what may be missing is the mental aspect.
Have a look at the clicker training thread and see if you can use that, it marks much more clearly correct behaviour that you are rewarding for and tends to cut out the confusion that can arise when using the voice to mark good behaviour (ie saying 'good boy' etc).
Also... he does need to interact with other dogs, if you can try to find some calm, sensible dogs he can play with, then you can teach him that sometimes, when you say so, he can play, and sometimes he cant.
If you do that then you can cut down on his frustration at not being allowed to interact with other dogs. It is hard when you have a breed like this, because people do assume frustrated behaviour is the same as aggression, so I would perhaps seek out owners of similar breeds (having made sure their dogs are friendly and not too silly), and ask them.
If you do meet someone willing to let your dog meet and greet with theirs, the way to introduce the two dogs is to walk together, at first a good distance apart, in the same direction. Gradually get the two dogs closer and closer, walking at a brisk pace. When they accept one anothers presence you can allow a few seconds worth of greeting sniffs and then carry on walking, eventually when you think both dogs are happy you can let them off lead in a safe place.
Do avoid walking head on to a strange dog, as thats rather threatening (direct eye contact), instead go in a wide arc or diagonally.
He sounds like a wonderful dog so I'm sure with care you'll have no problems,
Em
Em - Thanks you very much for taking the time to give us advice.
We just got back from a training session (pulling). A couple stopped to ask what we were doing and what was the point. I said he was bred to work and thrives when he works, and this is just one of the many ways he can be worked! I said a tired dogs is a good dog, and "watch, I don't force him to do this." I told Sage to work and he started right up. Good boy!
I was SO proud of this because he usually gets VERY distracted when someone comes to watch.
The guy then said "I wouldn't think that pitbulls would be trained to do that?" I said "Well he's not a pitbull, he's an American Bulldog, but pitbulls also excel in weight pulling sports!" He seemed surprised, but still really skeptical. We started with another pass, and on our way back they had disappeared. I hope we made a good impression.
There is one couple in the neighborhood who frequently watch a very calm and seemingly very stable dog. They calmly turn around the SECOND they see Sage. I actually take this as a good sign - they're aware of their surroundings while walking a dog, and I know what caused their aversion. The first time we met Sage went crazier than he'd ever been or has ever been since. He actually ran to the dog, but was stopped by the end of the leash and flipped backward. Needless to say this was a disturbing sight from the vantage point of my neighbors. This was actually the first case of him kind going crazy at other dogs.
Anyway I think I'll knock on their door and ask if they'll do the parallel walking with me. They walk their dog ALL the time and s/he's always very well behaved on the leash. Oh and the dog wasn't phased by Sage's antics at all. It just kind of wagged its tail. Now's actually a great time to start: Sage is BEAT!
(Can you tell I'm enthusiastic about this board. I type forever!)
We just got back from a training session (pulling). A couple stopped to ask what we were doing and what was the point. I said he was bred to work and thrives when he works, and this is just one of the many ways he can be worked! I said a tired dogs is a good dog, and "watch, I don't force him to do this." I told Sage to work and he started right up. Good boy!
I was SO proud of this because he usually gets VERY distracted when someone comes to watch.The guy then said "I wouldn't think that pitbulls would be trained to do that?" I said "Well he's not a pitbull, he's an American Bulldog, but pitbulls also excel in weight pulling sports!" He seemed surprised, but still really skeptical. We started with another pass, and on our way back they had disappeared. I hope we made a good impression.
There is one couple in the neighborhood who frequently watch a very calm and seemingly very stable dog. They calmly turn around the SECOND they see Sage. I actually take this as a good sign - they're aware of their surroundings while walking a dog, and I know what caused their aversion. The first time we met Sage went crazier than he'd ever been or has ever been since. He actually ran to the dog, but was stopped by the end of the leash and flipped backward. Needless to say this was a disturbing sight from the vantage point of my neighbors. This was actually the first case of him kind going crazy at other dogs.
Anyway I think I'll knock on their door and ask if they'll do the parallel walking with me. They walk their dog ALL the time and s/he's always very well behaved on the leash. Oh and the dog wasn't phased by Sage's antics at all. It just kind of wagged its tail. Now's actually a great time to start: Sage is BEAT!
(Can you tell I'm enthusiastic about this board. I type forever!)
Sage is my 3 year old darling American Bulldog (CGC, PH). Lola, another American Bulldog, is 7 months (as of May 2008).
They sound good people to talk to definatley.
Explain that his problem is excitement and frustration, hes just a big silly thing, not a psycho savage beast.
If you do do the parallell walking with them, ignore his yelling, just focus on walking in a straight line along side them, it may be you need to be 20feet away to start with, just use a brisk pace forwards and march, pre determine a point to turn around and head back at, so you just go up and down.... if he is already tired from some work, that will help - not too tired as like children dogs can get crabby when too tired.
As he quietens down, gradually get nearer to the others, have a conversation with them as you go as that helps you to ignore his creating havoc. Have some treats on you, just in case he does stop and look your way for a second (even if he wont normally take treats, it would be a shame not to have them in case there is an opportunity to reward him).
Walked this way I can introduce my previously branded 'dog aggressive' dog with any dog, its the introduction that matters and once they realise that the other dog isnt going anywhere, no further or nearer, that all the frustrated behaviour in the world achieves nothing, and they get a chance to meet the other dog in a low conflict way (side by side rather than head on), things settle very fast.
Hth
Em
Explain that his problem is excitement and frustration, hes just a big silly thing, not a psycho savage beast.
If you do do the parallell walking with them, ignore his yelling, just focus on walking in a straight line along side them, it may be you need to be 20feet away to start with, just use a brisk pace forwards and march, pre determine a point to turn around and head back at, so you just go up and down.... if he is already tired from some work, that will help - not too tired as like children dogs can get crabby when too tired.
As he quietens down, gradually get nearer to the others, have a conversation with them as you go as that helps you to ignore his creating havoc. Have some treats on you, just in case he does stop and look your way for a second (even if he wont normally take treats, it would be a shame not to have them in case there is an opportunity to reward him).
Walked this way I can introduce my previously branded 'dog aggressive' dog with any dog, its the introduction that matters and once they realise that the other dog isnt going anywhere, no further or nearer, that all the frustrated behaviour in the world achieves nothing, and they get a chance to meet the other dog in a low conflict way (side by side rather than head on), things settle very fast.
Hth
Em
What a fantastic dog, I love American bulldogs, and until I did some research resently into their breed I also used to mistake them for pitbulls.
I come across the same negative reactions with my German Shepherd. Only the other day I came across someone who let their dog off around mine. Bella went mad, leaping around and barking, I tried walking away but the other dog followed, (a small dog i must add). When I asked the owner to get her dog, her responce was "my dog won't harm her you should sort your dog out instead", bear in mind my dog was on a lead, and we were tring to leave the park.
Well ranting over with.
We are now seeing a behavouist because Bella has had a bit of a bad first 2 years.
At the moment we are training the 'look at me' command. Its slow progress but we are starting to be able to get her attention when out side now.
The other day when in the park and she was going nuts at a dog I was able to take her attention off the dog and do some training, (sit, down, paw and the new one high five).
There is light at the end of the tunnel
Talking of pulling, Bella has a harness attached to a float. Bella is a fantastic swimmer, really strong and will just swimming in the river for hours. I have a lot to do with a youth group and we take them away on activity weeks. some of them are very scared of water but we manage to get them in by having Bella in with them with her float. If they get panicked they can hold the float and she brings then back.
I come across the same negative reactions with my German Shepherd. Only the other day I came across someone who let their dog off around mine. Bella went mad, leaping around and barking, I tried walking away but the other dog followed, (a small dog i must add). When I asked the owner to get her dog, her responce was "my dog won't harm her you should sort your dog out instead", bear in mind my dog was on a lead, and we were tring to leave the park.
Well ranting over with.
We are now seeing a behavouist because Bella has had a bit of a bad first 2 years.
At the moment we are training the 'look at me' command. Its slow progress but we are starting to be able to get her attention when out side now.
The other day when in the park and she was going nuts at a dog I was able to take her attention off the dog and do some training, (sit, down, paw and the new one high five).
There is light at the end of the tunnel
Talking of pulling, Bella has a harness attached to a float. Bella is a fantastic swimmer, really strong and will just swimming in the river for hours. I have a lot to do with a youth group and we take them away on activity weeks. some of them are very scared of water but we manage to get them in by having Bella in with them with her float. If they get panicked they can hold the float and she brings then back.
Wow, good job with Bella and the float! That's great. Do you have pictures? If so please share!
We took Sage to my fiance's family reunion over the weekend at a park. At first we walked Sage around the perimeter and let him see everything that was going on (lots of kids, ball games, people and food!). Next we put him in his crate a short distance away from the crowd to take it all in. To my surprise he just watched, didn't yelp or whine.
A bunch of kids stopped by his crate to say hi and I think that helped desensitize him to kids a lot for the day. Next we took him back out and took a run around the park, then brought him into the crowd to people that know him. He was a little exuberant at first (he's still so puppy-like), but eventually just sat for pets and love. I was ecstatic! A little one and a half year old also got to give Sage loves and kisses. Sage was wonderful with him, except when he tried to lick away the baby's starburst.
Yay for little victories!
We took Sage to my fiance's family reunion over the weekend at a park. At first we walked Sage around the perimeter and let him see everything that was going on (lots of kids, ball games, people and food!). Next we put him in his crate a short distance away from the crowd to take it all in. To my surprise he just watched, didn't yelp or whine.
A bunch of kids stopped by his crate to say hi and I think that helped desensitize him to kids a lot for the day. Next we took him back out and took a run around the park, then brought him into the crowd to people that know him. He was a little exuberant at first (he's still so puppy-like), but eventually just sat for pets and love. I was ecstatic! A little one and a half year old also got to give Sage loves and kisses. Sage was wonderful with him, except when he tried to lick away the baby's starburst.
Yay for little victories!Sage is my 3 year old darling American Bulldog (CGC, PH). Lola, another American Bulldog, is 7 months (as of May 2008).
