messd up girl

[rossibear]

hi
Anyone here help ? At the beging of Dec last year we got a Hungerian wirehaired vizla ***** rising 9, Bracken. She was in terrible condition, toast rack on legs, cowering etc we have since found out a bit more about her past, she has been battered, kicked etc her feeding consisted of being thrown a rabbit leg or wing of a duck.
Since then I have got some weight on her but she has food issues she wasn't keen on a dog bowl so I changed it to a dinner plate which helped a bit, but she still approaches the plate suspiously I have problems getting her to eat consistantly she will not eat dog biscuits, I have tried bags of different ones, but will take small treat ones from my hands. The only thing she will eat withany consistantcy is the webbox chubs but these aren't enough for her I feel, what she eats one day
doesn't mean she'll eat it the next day and some days she'll eat all the meals I give her and more, she gets 3 medium meals a day sometimes 4 if she wants to eat,the next few days she will turn her nose up at it, I've tried mixing different foods together but it a similar response, she would be quite happy to eat what on my plate though! She also has to know where I am when she's eating. I would like her to put on wieght a bit more so has anyone ideas she gets at least 2 hrs of exercise a day
She is at her happiest when off lead following her nose, otherwise her tail is constantly clamped to her bum even when she wags it and she wants contant petting to the point where it can be cloying, and we have to be careful with hand movements or stepping over her as she screams and cowers on the floor, waiting for the battering, but I ignore this even thou I fell bad about it get her to come and sit then treat and praise so she doesn't associate she cudles with cowering etc so am I doing the right thing.
For all she's been through she is a sweet natured quiet dog , a bit nervous and obendient but she is damaged so I am hoping that you more experianced dog owners can give me some advice on how to help this dog as she does deserve to be happy I would love to see her with her tail up all the time

[Mattie]

hi
Anyone here help ? At the beging of Dec last year we got a Hungerian wirehaired vizla ***** rising 9, Bracken. She was in terrible condition, toast rack on legs, cowering etc we have since found out a bit more about her past, she has been battered, kicked etc her feeding consisted of being thrown a rabbit leg or wing of a duck.
Since then I have got some weight on her but she has food issues she wasn't keen on a dog bowl so I changed it to a dinner plate which helped a bit, but she still approaches the plate suspiously I have problems getting her to eat consistantly she will not eat dog biscuits, I have tried bags of different ones, but will take small treat ones from my hands. The only thing she will eat withany consistantcy is the webbox chubs but these aren't enough for her I feel, what she eats one day
doesn't mean she'll eat it the next day and some days she'll eat all the meals I give her and more, she gets 3 medium meals a day sometimes 4 if she wants to eat,the next few days she will turn her nose up at it, I've tried mixing different foods together but it a similar response, she would be quite happy to eat what on my plate though! She also has to know where I am when she's eating. I would like her to put on wieght a bit more so has anyone ideas she gets at least 2 hrs of exercise a day

As she has been used to eating raw food I would feed her a raw diet, Emmabeth and Nettle have a lot of experience feeding raw and will give you lots of advice, also there are several threads of raw feeding on here.

As she is frightened of a bowl or plate, I would feed her on the floor, maybe put a mat down for her food, make sure it isn’t something she is frightened of. I have a dog that won’t eat out of a stainless steel bowl, only plastic ones.

She is at her happiest when off lead following her nose, otherwise her tail is constantly clamped to her bum even when she wags it and she wants contant petting to the point where it can be cloying, and we have to be careful with hand movements or stepping over her as she screams and cowers on the floor, waiting for the battering, but I ignore this even thou I fell bad about it get her to come and sit then treat and praise so she doesn't associate she cudles with cowering etc so am I doing the right thing.
For all she's been through she is a sweet natured quiet dog , a bit nervous and obendient but she is damaged so I am hoping that you more experianced dog owners can give me some advice on how to help this dog as she does deserve to be happy I would love to see her with her tail up all the time

This has brought back memories of when Merlin my Greyhound first arrived, even now 6.5 years later he will still give the odd scream if someone moves their had up fast. Like you I ignored the cowering etc, but would just speak in a happy voice about anything, I found it was the happy voice that gave Merlin the feeling he wasn’t going to be beaten as well as a smile. Smiling at our dogs is something we never think to do but dogs like your’s and Merlin smiles help by softening our body language so we are friendly and not going to beat them. Your body language is really important, no matter how bad a day you have had, you need to keep your body soft so keep smiling.

What may help her is something natural to help calm her, don’t know if you are in the UK or USA but in the UK you can get Stay Calm, Serene-um or Skullcap and Valeria, which are herbs and may help her.

It took Merlin 2 years to feel completely safe with me and 3 years before he felt safe enough to get up onto the sofa, he has grown roots there now. You are in for a very long session to help this poor girl, but if you keep a diary you will be able to look back and see how much she has improved.

Please stay with us, just having people who understand will make a big difference to you and help you cope in the bad times. If you look at the threads about Horus you will see just what can be done with a damaged dog, Horus is also deaf which made things more difficult. We will help as much as we can, even give you big cyber hugs when you are feeling really down.

[Sarah83]

She sounds almost exactly like Rupert was when I got him. I've given up on the food issue in all honesty, if Rupert eats a meal he eats it, if he turns his nose up at his meals for a couple of days then he goes hungry. I chose a decent food and stuck to it, nothing mixed in or added because he'd just pick out the extras and leave the rest. You may not feel she's eating enough but she may be eating what she's comfortable with. I've had Rupert 6 years now and he still doesn't eat consistently, I doubt he ever will. He absolutely will NOT eat if someone he trusts isn't there with him and a new sort of treat is viewed suspiciously no matter who it comes from. As long as she's healthy I wouldn't worry overly about her missing meals, doesn't sound like she's going to starve herself and the more of an issue you make food the more of an issue it could become. One way I have found of getting Rupert eating a bit more is to use part of his daily food allowance as training treats. I usually manage to get about a quarter of his daily food down him like this.

The cowering is a matter of time, patience and gaining her trust and building her confidence. Rupe spent about 6 months practically living under my bed which was the only place he felt safe. The slightest thing would send him into a cowering lump on the floor, eyes screwed shut and shaking like a leaf. I actually considered putting him to sleep because he had no quality of life but he slowly improved. In my opinion you're doing the right thing by not babying her for it but getting her to do something you can reward. A lot of people I know think I'm I real b*tch for not cuddling him and "there there, it's okay"-ing him when he gets upset about something but it makes him ten times worse and he's far more spooky with the people who do that sort of thing than with people who'll ignore the dramatics. I don't know whether your girls the same but Rupert was very, very worried about getting something wrong and clicker training has helped that immensely. It's also a good way to bond and gain trust as well as getting some food into her.

I'm not going to lie to you, the journey with Rupert hasn't been easy. I've cried over him more times than I want to think about. I've considered putting him to sleep, I've considered rehoming him with someone who knows more about his sort of issues. He has taught me so much though and despite all his issues I absolutely adore him. He is nothing I wanted in a dog yet somehow he is absolutely perfect for me. One thing that might help is keeping a diary of her progress. Sometimes it feels like you're going nowhere with the issues but when you look back you see that you really have come a long way. You learn to see and celebrate the tiny little things those with normal dogs take for granted. It's so rewarding to see a terrified, wreck of a dog gain trust and confidence and learn that life is actually good. We still have ongoing issues but overall Rupe is a different dog to the one I brought home from the shelter. He's been (and continues to be) a challenge but I wouldn't change him for the world. You're looking at a long time frame to "fix" her but in my opinion, it's time well spent.

[Mattie]

The principles of clicker training are wonderful for abused or timid dogs but dogs that have been abused may not be able to cope with the noise a clicker makes, there are alternatives, clicker can be used in a pocked to deaden the sound, a pen that has a soft click, the top of a baby food jar or a special word used only for this.

[Sarah83]

dogs that have been abused may not be able to cope with the noise a clicker makes

True but the same also goes for dogs who've never known a moments abuse in their life. We actually had a huge problem with voice. Even now Rupert will head for his safe spot if your voice is too loud or the tone is slightly off from what he's used to so the clicker worked best for us along with signs rather than verbal commands once I'd convinced him that moving hands aren't evil. At least I won't be completely lost if I ever end up with a deaf dog

[Mattie]

I wasn't saying not to use a clicker but to be aware that abused dogs are more likely to react to the noise of the clicker. Of course there are dogs that are noise sensitive that haven't been abused but not as many.

[Horace's Mum]

As far as food goes, I would agree with Mattie and suggest raw feeding her, as that is what she has been used to and she obviously doesn't enjoy dry dog food. If that is not possible at all, even short term until she settles into her new home a bit more, then I would suggest trying different wet foods, but as good quality as you can get - Nature Diet is not bad, I don't know if you can get that where you are. Or give her homecooked meals, but do a little research into balancing these as best you can - you might be able to gradually wean her onto dry food by soaking it and mixing tiny bit by tiny bit into her homecooked or wet foods.

As for the cowering, my boy was terrified of hands and bodies moving too fast when I got him, but he reacted more often by attacking rather than cowering. As he is deaf, it made it very difficult at the start to work with him - just asking him to sit could trigger his fears, and I couldn't talk to him or even tell him good boy until he had managed to calm himself. I did basically what you are doing - I got to know him very well, and if I thought he would react then I didn't move until I saw him relax. Sometimes I would give him a sit sign, he would back away and get the look in his eyes that said if I moved one more muscle then he'd have me, but I just stood there, smile glued to my face, completely still, and waited for him to remember that "sit" is a good sign. He would cautiously park his bum, and I would make a big fuss with treats and smiles, but not too much contact, until he relaxed again.

So do just ignore all of the cowering, keep talking in a quiet but bright and cheerful voice - I still talk, saying "you are a silly boy, you don't have to worry, put those feeties back on the floor, and then you can have some yummy things and we can get on with going for a walk....."!! I find if you talk cheerful and silly things it helps me to keep myself relaxed, which in turn keeps my body relaxed, and I keep smiling until my jaw aches so that my face stays happy and relaxed. Try and control the look in your eyes as well, if she sees fear or pity in you then she will read off it herself.

If she cowers, wait completely still while talking until she relaxes and looks up at you for guidance again, and then make a quiet fuss of her and move on. Don't focus on it. I usually ask for a simple command, such as sit or high 5, so that I can reward that behaviour and totally ignore the other behaviour. If she know any commands then use these, if she doesn't then just give her a stroke and move off.

Clicker training is fantastic in cases like this, because it builds the dog's self confidence and self esteem. Rather than teaching specific tricks to begin with, I would do lots of freeshaping, with a really high rate of reward, to the point where you feel like you are rewarding her just for breathing! Get the clicker primed and then start working with her, maybe start with a simple target, but make it easy, put your fingers right in front of her nose so she has to touch, and click it. Remember this is for her, not you, so make it really really rewarding for the first few weeks, then you can start asking a little more from her when you feel she understands the principle and is happier in offering you behaviours. Don't rush it though, some dogs who have been punished for "speaking their mind" take a very long time to start offering ideas of their own, and some never do.

It takes a long, long time to work through issues like this, and she is unlikely ever to be entirely comfortable. But by avoiding situations that are likely to upset her, and keeping all your movements quiet and predictable, she will come round. But remember the average rescue dog takes 6 months to feel at home, the ones with issues can take even longer - mine took 18months before I knew he knew he was home, and he is still improving now, 2 years on.

Keep us posted, and use us for support when you need it!

[Nettle]

Be aware that in some cases of dog abuse, food and violence are linked. Feed her on the ground, and be happy with tiny successes. When you know her better and think she can handle it, get her teeth checked. Maybe her jaw too.

[rossibear]

Thank you all for sharing your experiances and advice, which i will be listening to. I have rehabbed horses in the past and am used to keeping calm in stressed situations, maybe being a ex psychiatric nurse helps too ! I have used clicker training with a young horse I had some years ago when she was on box rest for months, sadly no longer with us though I didn't get all the way with it due to her demise, it helped alliviete the boredom for her, So I started clicker training Bracken today, she was ok with the clicker and soon picked up what I was wanting, just to touch my hand with her nose a few inches from her, so will continue with this for the next while, she is treat orianted so thought all her birthdays had come at once ! I plan to do a couple of short lessons a day and once she, hopefully woks it out for herself we can look at doing something else.
I realise that it will take her a long time if ever to improve, and she is still settling into a totally different enviroment where she lives in a house and doesn't get mistreated but it must be very confusing for her one minute your with your owner however bad, it was what she was used to, the next you're in the back of a car in a different part of the country then put into a total strangers car where nothing is familiar, but that's some hunting folk for you animals are just a commodity, I'm not soppy about animals as such but if you've had a animal that has been a good servant to you for years I think you have a responsiblity to it, to give it a good retirement or find a suitable home. Bracken has a good home with us but we could have been anyone as it was a spur of the moment descion and apperantly his 7 yr old daughter was breaking her heart when she did not come home with him. Not something I could do