Hi all!,
I just recently watched my first episode of Victoria's TV show and that has led me to find this forum.
I am a brand new owner of a boxer puppy. I brought him home at 6 weeks of age and he is now almost 10 weeks old.
Here is where I need some guidance. My puppy is a HUGE biter when it comes to hands, feet, ankles, pants and most of all the face. If my face ever gets down to his level he could be on the other side of the room and will charge right at it and starts biting. It is so bad that the ONLY time that my kids (ages 5 and 7) can be in the same room as him is when he is completely warn out and almost asleep. That is the only time he is calm enough to handle by my kids.
I have done a ton of googling and talked to a few obedience trainers on the subject and nearly every article and every obedience trainer states something different to correct this. The information varies from Do the Cesar tap on the shoulder, spray it with water, pinch the nose, stick your finger down its throat, role the puppy's gums over their tooth to hurt them every time they bite you, and leave the room/ignore them and believe it or not I found one article that stated you should bite the puppy back. No joke it said that you should do what the puppy's parents would do and if you get bit by your puppy nip back at it... not hard but enough to let it know its now ok. The last thing in the whole world I would want to do to my puppy is bite him..........
So here is what I have done but does not seem to be working at all. In doing my research before I got my puppy I read an article by Dr. Ian Dunbar about leaving the room/ignoring the puppy when they bite. I have been doing this strategy for almost 4 weeks now with no change in his behavior. I will playing with him in a room that I can leave as soon as I yelp and get bit. I'll leave him in the room for about a minute and come back. No luck..... Every time he opens his mouth I try and redirect with toys, but he LOVES HANDS...
Last night we started our first obedience class with a trainer. She went around the room asking if we had any problems with our puppy. I explained to her what I just stated above. The trainer had brought a little puppy to class that she had just rescued a few weeks ago. She said that she had the same problem with her little guy and that the Cesar tap cleared that right up and he does not bite anymore. Well after class I went home and tried it and I think it had the complete opposite affect on my puppy... seemed to make him even nippier (if that's even a word lol)
So at this point I am really confused about what to do. I realize I have only had him for 4 weeks but I would think that there would be some results by now.
Are there any tips from you all that have gone through this that you can recommend? I haven't tried water guns, pinching, or any of they other techniques but I'm about at my wits ends.
I realize that this is a phase and that he will grow out of (well I hope anyways) but I can't remember any of my other puppies through the years ever acting like this.
Thanks
Matthew
I have come across a bunch on contradicting strategies and was hoping that some of you from this list that have recently been through the same thing could point me in the right direction.
Help I'm Lost and so Confused
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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Horace's Mum
- Posts: 1129
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:10 pm
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
I'm know the others will be along and more helpful soon, but I think you are going the right way so far with leaving the room. It might be worth leaving a trailing line about 2m long on his collar and instead of removing yourselves you pick up the line and take him out the room, sometimes that works better. But bear in mind you have a boxer, they don't have a habit of growing up, and he is likely to be very lively and playful for a long time to come. This means you need to not only teach him how to behave with you, but also teach your kids how to behave around him when he gets too much.
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
I am curious about you bringing the puppy home at 6 weeks. There may be other opinions on this, but my belief is that is about 2-3 weeks too soon. They don't get a lot of the social skills they need from their siblings and mother. I agree with Horaces Mom, I think you are doing the correct thing by leaving.
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
Yep boxers dont grow up!
First of all well done for NOT diving straight in with the aversive methods (I can totally understand why you tried the 'cesar tap' thing in the end) it can be very very tempting especially givenjust HOW hard puppies can bite!
I suspect your time outs are in fact a little too long - is it realy a minute? Try just ten or 15 seconds and repeat repeat repeat - you might feel lik you will meet yourself coming back at times constant in and out of the room but really the best way, and the way his litter mates would react to play they did not like, is to not take any part in it, avoid it, get out of the room, dont reward it.
You might find its better to evict him from the room for ten seconds and I second HoracesMums advice to use a trailing leash to help with this so you are not turning it into a game of 'chase the puppy to catch him to chuck him out' as that gets silly and its reallllllllly super fun for puppies!
Are you playing games that he likes with him, such as raggy rope pulling games.... and then ending them the second he gets giddy/starts going for faces/hands etc? If not I actually would do this, he does need to play these games they are good for him - you need to enforce the rules. So playing them with a raggy rope toy is fine. Playing them with sleeves and pant legs - not fine. Trying to solve the problem by never playing these games wont work because he does need to bite, chew, rag, pull etc, hes driven to do these things by his instincts - you have to guide him to do them appropriately.
Do hang on in there, you are definately not alone in feeling like 'omg..... what HAVE i got here?' It will get better in time!
First of all well done for NOT diving straight in with the aversive methods (I can totally understand why you tried the 'cesar tap' thing in the end) it can be very very tempting especially givenjust HOW hard puppies can bite!
I suspect your time outs are in fact a little too long - is it realy a minute? Try just ten or 15 seconds and repeat repeat repeat - you might feel lik you will meet yourself coming back at times constant in and out of the room but really the best way, and the way his litter mates would react to play they did not like, is to not take any part in it, avoid it, get out of the room, dont reward it.
You might find its better to evict him from the room for ten seconds and I second HoracesMums advice to use a trailing leash to help with this so you are not turning it into a game of 'chase the puppy to catch him to chuck him out' as that gets silly and its reallllllllly super fun for puppies!
Are you playing games that he likes with him, such as raggy rope pulling games.... and then ending them the second he gets giddy/starts going for faces/hands etc? If not I actually would do this, he does need to play these games they are good for him - you need to enforce the rules. So playing them with a raggy rope toy is fine. Playing them with sleeves and pant legs - not fine. Trying to solve the problem by never playing these games wont work because he does need to bite, chew, rag, pull etc, hes driven to do these things by his instincts - you have to guide him to do them appropriately.
Do hang on in there, you are definately not alone in feeling like 'omg..... what HAVE i got here?' It will get better in time!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
6 weeks is probably is younger than what we wanted. (short back story) We where driving along the road and saw a truck with a sign puppies for sale so we stopped he was the last one left from the litter and well my kids say him and it was all over at that point. We had planed on waiting till spring as potty training I'm sure is harder in the winter. We planned on buying from a reputable breeder and checking out the parents and doing our due diligence but that all went out the window....
So here I am. We all love our little puppy but have decided to nickname him Little Satan.
So here I am. We all love our little puppy but have decided to nickname him Little Satan.
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
I don't think it makes it impossible to train, when you get them that young, it just means, I think that he will need a little more work in the social skills department. Ahhhh children, those sad little faces can de-rail the best laid plans LOL
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
I can't offer you any help as I have no puppy experience (brought mine home from a shelter at 8 months). And even though an impulse buy like that isn't really the best thing to do, especially from what is obviously a backyard breeder, you've done it, your pup is here, and it's time to move forward. I am replying to your post to congratulate you on finding this forum so early on and asking for help. You have come to the right place, and good on you for not going the "other" route. I tried the "tap" on my dog before and as you found it doesn't help. It makes me happy to see new members come on here who've already read Ian Dunbar, etc. Welcome, and best of luck to you, I'm sure there will be plenty of great advice for you here. 
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
We brought ours home at 6 weeks, and he was fine... I'm fairly certain all of his issues were bred into him or are in his genes somewhere since his littermates have the same issues he does. Bruiser wasn't any harder to train (obedience or potty). His bad manners now is not because of him, but because of me--he wants to learn, I've just gotten lazy this year between teaching, wedding stuff, and housework (not a good excuse, I know).
That has just been my experience with my dog though, I'm sure that it's different for every person, dog and breed.
That has just been my experience with my dog though, I'm sure that it's different for every person, dog and breed.
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
What age a pup should be when it leaves its litter and goes to its new home is a really tricky issue and depends on SO many things.
For example, most people who havent bred a litter dont realise that Mom-dog usually (and this is more so in some breeds, less so in others) has little to do with the pups from as early as three weeks. Puppies are weaned at anywhere between 3 to 4 weeks usually.. some Moms will carry on feeding them much later, some will do the BARE minimum, 2 weeks and wash their paws of them almost entirely.
So from whatever time Mom stopped feeding them several times a day, washing their butts to make them pee/poo and retrieving them from wherever they got 'lost' (which stops at I think 13 days old, after that they can make all the 'come save me Mommy' noise they like, she wont.) they spend most of their time sleeping, eating, discovering their environment.. and playing with the other puppies.
How valuable and beneficial this time is, depends on the breeder, the environment available and the other puppies and adult dogs around.
So a middle of the road pup from a fairly average litter, behaviour wise (no extremes, no mega bullies, no serious cowards or nervous types), who has access to well balanced adult dogs other than mom, of a variety of ages, an environment that exposes them to all the things they will encounter as adult dogs, would quite probably benefit from staying with the rest of his/her litter mates until at the very LEAST six weeks, possibly more.
But then you have the first fear stage, up until which puppy has been able to explore everything without being fearful of it - moving a puppy to a new strange environment a week after hes learned to be fearful of things can be catastrophic!
What if your pup wasnt middle of the road in an excellent environment with well balance littermates and adult dogs to learn from. What if the pup is a soft natured dog in a litter of massive bullies - a further month of being beaten up, bullied, having to fight for everything he needs after his Mom has stopped feeding him... perhaps in an environment that isnt mentally stimulating at all and exposes him to none of the things he needs to be fine with as an adult..
Thats not beneficial at all, thats detrimental to that puppies future and he would be better off otu of there sooner.
So the OP's pup, at six weeks old with no litter mates isnt learning much in the way of how to interact nicely with his brothers and sisters, they are gone. If he also doesnt have a variety of well balanced adult dogs to 'bounce off' and learn from.... he is better off out of there as soon as possible.
My latest pup Errol was with his mum until 15 weeks, FAR too long in my opinion but circumstances dictated that was the way it was. Not only that but though he had other adult dogs to learn from, they were much smaller Shih Tzu's (hes a Tibetan Terrier) and he spent his time post 8 weeks and his litter mates leaving, honing his skills as a bully.
In one way, thats meant he can be a pain in the bum - in another its suited me down to the ground because I wanted to bring in a confident, strong charactered pup - I have four adult dogs, all of them bigger than Errol is as an adult (so much bigger than him aged 15 weeks!), two of those are VERY much bigger than him at 26 and 31" tall and the biggest of them all was also a young dog who desperately needed someone to play with.
A softer, more retiring sort of puppy would have been totally overwhelmed in these circumstances and could very easily have learned to be aggressive to fend for himself. Errol though took being a Deerhounds bestest buddy in his stride and was never phased for a second at being dropped in at the deepend in a house full of much larger dogs than hed ever encountered in his life.
So, what I lost in not having him before his fear stage started and before he learned to be a bit of a bully, I gained in his unsquashable confidence with other dogs.
There are many many more variables and potential outcomes than I have mentioned here, but it is definately not true that the logner a pup stays with his littermates or mom, the better. Far far from it!
For example, most people who havent bred a litter dont realise that Mom-dog usually (and this is more so in some breeds, less so in others) has little to do with the pups from as early as three weeks. Puppies are weaned at anywhere between 3 to 4 weeks usually.. some Moms will carry on feeding them much later, some will do the BARE minimum, 2 weeks and wash their paws of them almost entirely.
So from whatever time Mom stopped feeding them several times a day, washing their butts to make them pee/poo and retrieving them from wherever they got 'lost' (which stops at I think 13 days old, after that they can make all the 'come save me Mommy' noise they like, she wont.) they spend most of their time sleeping, eating, discovering their environment.. and playing with the other puppies.
How valuable and beneficial this time is, depends on the breeder, the environment available and the other puppies and adult dogs around.
So a middle of the road pup from a fairly average litter, behaviour wise (no extremes, no mega bullies, no serious cowards or nervous types), who has access to well balanced adult dogs other than mom, of a variety of ages, an environment that exposes them to all the things they will encounter as adult dogs, would quite probably benefit from staying with the rest of his/her litter mates until at the very LEAST six weeks, possibly more.
But then you have the first fear stage, up until which puppy has been able to explore everything without being fearful of it - moving a puppy to a new strange environment a week after hes learned to be fearful of things can be catastrophic!
What if your pup wasnt middle of the road in an excellent environment with well balance littermates and adult dogs to learn from. What if the pup is a soft natured dog in a litter of massive bullies - a further month of being beaten up, bullied, having to fight for everything he needs after his Mom has stopped feeding him... perhaps in an environment that isnt mentally stimulating at all and exposes him to none of the things he needs to be fine with as an adult..
Thats not beneficial at all, thats detrimental to that puppies future and he would be better off otu of there sooner.
So the OP's pup, at six weeks old with no litter mates isnt learning much in the way of how to interact nicely with his brothers and sisters, they are gone. If he also doesnt have a variety of well balanced adult dogs to 'bounce off' and learn from.... he is better off out of there as soon as possible.
My latest pup Errol was with his mum until 15 weeks, FAR too long in my opinion but circumstances dictated that was the way it was. Not only that but though he had other adult dogs to learn from, they were much smaller Shih Tzu's (hes a Tibetan Terrier) and he spent his time post 8 weeks and his litter mates leaving, honing his skills as a bully.
In one way, thats meant he can be a pain in the bum - in another its suited me down to the ground because I wanted to bring in a confident, strong charactered pup - I have four adult dogs, all of them bigger than Errol is as an adult (so much bigger than him aged 15 weeks!), two of those are VERY much bigger than him at 26 and 31" tall and the biggest of them all was also a young dog who desperately needed someone to play with.
A softer, more retiring sort of puppy would have been totally overwhelmed in these circumstances and could very easily have learned to be aggressive to fend for himself. Errol though took being a Deerhounds bestest buddy in his stride and was never phased for a second at being dropped in at the deepend in a house full of much larger dogs than hed ever encountered in his life.
So, what I lost in not having him before his fear stage started and before he learned to be a bit of a bully, I gained in his unsquashable confidence with other dogs.
There are many many more variables and potential outcomes than I have mentioned here, but it is definately not true that the logner a pup stays with his littermates or mom, the better. Far far from it!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
If it makes you feel any better the dog we got at 6 weeks old ended up with absolutely wonderful social skills, a large range of warnings (he'd stiffen and gradually move up from there rather than just go straight in with the big scary toothy display) and good bite inhibition. He was mouthy all his life but was gentle with it. The one we got at 14 weeks was never bitey but lacked social skills despite being from a big litter with a mother who had good dog skills. Then again, those 14 weeks consisted of eating and sleeping for him 
I think the individual dog has a lot to do with it. Even at 6 weeks old Shadow was very, very confident and independent. The only thing I remember frightening Shadow were bands. We got caught up in a carnival one day and the people playing instruments terrified him.
As for the biting. Rupert was around 12 months when I got him and nobody had ever taught him that leaping at someone and grabbing them wasn't the right way to greet them. I was a walking bruise after a few hours with him. I just walked out of the room and shut the door behind me for a minute or two whenever his teeth touched me. Within a few weeks he'd pretty much stopped the biting, the jumping was the difficult part with him. Even now he still prefers to be up in someones face when greeting or being petted.
I think the individual dog has a lot to do with it. Even at 6 weeks old Shadow was very, very confident and independent. The only thing I remember frightening Shadow were bands. We got caught up in a carnival one day and the people playing instruments terrified him.As for the biting. Rupert was around 12 months when I got him and nobody had ever taught him that leaping at someone and grabbing them wasn't the right way to greet them. I was a walking bruise after a few hours with him. I just walked out of the room and shut the door behind me for a minute or two whenever his teeth touched me. Within a few weeks he'd pretty much stopped the biting, the jumping was the difficult part with him. Even now he still prefers to be up in someones face when greeting or being petted.
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sheepieness
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:10 am
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
You've already had great advise but I will say I thought the same about my puppy (normally I have had rescues in the past) and swore she was going to grow up aggressive and it would never end. Please rest assure it does end, Roo is a border Collie and even though occassionally she forgets herself she hardly mouths anymore.
The Alligator you brought home will be better in time
The Alligator you brought home will be better in time
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
Hi There!
First, you have my utmost sympathy. We've just been through this. Zeke is almost 6 months old now. We had many times where I didn't know if we'd get through the nipping and mouthing. I was bleeding, scratched and badly bruised. And my kids were not allowed near him. To give you some perspective, Zeke is over 60 lbs already at 5 months and is a very happy (jumpy) yellow lab. We did the yelp and turn our backs on him. It slowly started working, but there were still many times my husband would come inside and explain that Zeke had just gotten very agressive and he had a hard time getting away from him. Zeke did seem to do this more to my husband than myself. Hard to say if it was the fact that I did most of the training, or if he just sensed man vs woman. He still behaves differently with each of us. Where I finally felt like I turned a corner on the mouthing happened one day in the backyard. I had been playing with Zeke and he started to get that look in his eye that he was about to play "attack". I immediately did my verbal "no" command (like Victoria does, the ach, ach sort of sound) and turned my back. That dog came up behind me, sat down calmly and looked at me like "hey, what's up??". It was like a huge light bulb went off in my head. He hasn't come after me since because I've been good about stopping it before it starts. I also never get down low with him (no sitting on floor) and don't play rough with him. Now, my husband, on the other hand, still had issues until Zeke grew out of it last month. But, wouldn't you know it, he would sit on the floor with him or play rough with him. For me, the not sitting on the floor was just more of a defense thing. If I never got down that low, I could get out of the situation faster if he got mouthy.
Zeke has now lost all his baby teeth and his mouthing is very gentle now. Now my son (6) is starting to slowly get around him more. I know you are frustrated, and there really is not that much help out there on this subject. Just keep working with your puppy and listen to Emmabeth and others. They really helped me and I am extremely grateful.
A
First, you have my utmost sympathy. We've just been through this. Zeke is almost 6 months old now. We had many times where I didn't know if we'd get through the nipping and mouthing. I was bleeding, scratched and badly bruised. And my kids were not allowed near him. To give you some perspective, Zeke is over 60 lbs already at 5 months and is a very happy (jumpy) yellow lab. We did the yelp and turn our backs on him. It slowly started working, but there were still many times my husband would come inside and explain that Zeke had just gotten very agressive and he had a hard time getting away from him. Zeke did seem to do this more to my husband than myself. Hard to say if it was the fact that I did most of the training, or if he just sensed man vs woman. He still behaves differently with each of us. Where I finally felt like I turned a corner on the mouthing happened one day in the backyard. I had been playing with Zeke and he started to get that look in his eye that he was about to play "attack". I immediately did my verbal "no" command (like Victoria does, the ach, ach sort of sound) and turned my back. That dog came up behind me, sat down calmly and looked at me like "hey, what's up??". It was like a huge light bulb went off in my head. He hasn't come after me since because I've been good about stopping it before it starts. I also never get down low with him (no sitting on floor) and don't play rough with him. Now, my husband, on the other hand, still had issues until Zeke grew out of it last month. But, wouldn't you know it, he would sit on the floor with him or play rough with him. For me, the not sitting on the floor was just more of a defense thing. If I never got down that low, I could get out of the situation faster if he got mouthy.
Zeke has now lost all his baby teeth and his mouthing is very gentle now. Now my son (6) is starting to slowly get around him more. I know you are frustrated, and there really is not that much help out there on this subject. Just keep working with your puppy and listen to Emmabeth and others. They really helped me and I am extremely grateful.
A
surviving puppyhood
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
Good for you all, and we have all been through it
Roughhousing is about the worst thing to do with puppies - but so many people do it. Like getting the children excited just prior to bedtime
Roughhousing is about the worst thing to do with puppies - but so many people do it. Like getting the children excited just prior to bedtime
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
HA! Nettle, don't even get me started on that subject! Happens all the time in my house and hubby wonders why our son won't go to sleep. One day during our rough time with Zeke, I caught hubby playing rough with Zeke. I explained that, since we were having issues with Zeke playing agressively and nipping, that he not play rough with him and encourage that behavior. The response I got was "I've always been able to rough house with my dogs". Well, dear, not this one!! And people say I'm the hard headed one. Geez. Note that he has never had a puppy - just older dogs. Fortunately, that part seems behind us. Now we are just being entertained by all the trouble a lab can get in to. I'm afraid the poor frogs in our backyard are not faring well versus Zeke.
Happens all the time in my house and hubby wonders why our son won't go to sleep. One day during our rough time with Zeke, I caught hubby playing rough with Zeke. I explained that, since we were having issues with Zeke playing agressively and nipping, that he not play rough with him and encourage that behavior. The response I got was "I've always been able to rough house with my dogs". Well, dear, not this one!! And people say I'm the hard headed one. Geez. Note that he has never had a puppy - just older dogs. Fortunately, that part seems behind us. Now we are just being entertained by all the trouble a lab can get in to. I'm afraid the poor frogs in our backyard are not faring well versus Zeke.surviving puppyhood
Re: Help I'm Lost and so Confused
I taught Rupert to hold a toy in his mouth while rough housing with us. It's worked wonderfully for us. Figured it was a lot easier to teach that than to try and enforce a no wrestling with the dog rule. Especially with blokes. I enjoy a good wrestling match with Rupe but guys seem to take it further and I could tell when Rupe had been playing with my brother or boyfriend (now husband) because I'd end up hurting the next time I played with him. Might not work for others but for us it's ideal. Ruperts happy enough hanging on to his toy, hubbys happy enough being able to wrestle with the dog and I'm happy not getting hurt 