Kelpie Pup Growls at my Toddler - Advice Please

tukituki · Post by **tukituki** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:10 pm

We have 2 dogs, a 15month old female golden retriever, and a 6 month old male Kelpie puppy. Our retriever has never put a foot wrong with our daughter (who is 18 months), she is so gentle and placid, a really good friend to her.

We got a male kelpie as a companion for our retriever a couple of months ago. He is smart, friendly, totally awesome with adults BUT on several occassions now he has growled at my daughter. We have been teaching our daughter to be nice to the dogs and she is most of the time, but young mr scruff has growled at her if she sat next to him. I am understandably concerned about it as a growl could turn into a bite, and I want my daughter to be safe. I never leave the 2 together unsupervised.

Would anybody be able to give me some advice on how to proceed with the growling? When it occurs I tell him off with a firm uh-uh, and when he did it just now the same and I put him outside (as we was very close to the door).

He is an awesome dog other than this. Do you think he see's my daughter as bottom dog and is trying to dominate her?

Thanks.

maximoo · Post by **maximoo** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:24 pm

Do not teach or discourage dog from growling. If you do you will never know when he is upset about something & he may bite w/o warning. He is not trying to dominate her. Growling is a warning communication that the dog is distressed about something. Maybe kelpie just wanted to rest & hyper litttle girl sat next to him. If he growls, quickly get her away & figure out why he growled. Give kelpie a 'safe place' to go where he will not be bothered: a crate, a pen, a bed in a crnr, a closet floor, whatever you have & keep teachng child when pup is in his safe place to leave him alone.

tukituki · Post by **tukituki** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:37 pm

thanks maximoo. i don't think i can not tell him off though, its just an uh-uh (like saying no). its not acceptable for him to growl at her.

i do try and put him in a separate area of the lounge/kitchen to sleep that my daughter can't get to, but he prefers to be in the same area as the rest of us.

he's a really good boy other than this. he's getting the snip in about 2 weeks.

Leigha · Post by **Leigha** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:58 pm

Here's my uneducated, nonparent opinion...

It's okay for your dog to growl. He can't say "leave me alone, I don't want to play right now" in English, so he growls, that's all he can do. Dogs don't have words.

You need to teach your daughter when she hears that noise it's time to leave puppy alone he doesn't want to play. Telling your dog not to growl is going to cause him to bite without giving you any warning. I'd rather your dog growl at your daughter than try to bite her.

If he likes to be with the rest of you, get him a crate that can stay in the living room or family room or whatever and teach him that it's a safe place to go where baby girl won't bother him and teacher her that that's puppies place when he wants to be on his own.

Fundog · Post by **Fundog** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:18 pm

I agree. It's going to have to be acceptable for the kelpie to growl at your child. That is his only means of communication, without actually inflicting harm. In his language, it is exactly the same as saying, "please stop," or even, "I don't like you to sit by me." When he expresses himself this way, you must teach the child to back away immediately. It is also quite possible that this particular dog simply is not as fond of children as your golden is. (Like people, dogs have their preferences and dislikes also) In which case, the kelpie may be better suited to a home without children.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:48 am

And here is another voice telling you that your daughter moves away when he growls. Just because the retriever puts up with your daughter's baby clutchings and lovings doesn't mean all dogs will, so take this opportunity to educate her into not touching or going up to every dog.

And do NOT 'tell him off'. He only has so many ways to say "I don't like this" and believe me he will have used up most of them before he growls, and you and your daughter will simply not have seen them - because he talks dog and you speak human.

You have a very active driven working breed here, so please ensure he gets enough stimulus and mental and physical exercise to keep him happy.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:15 am

tukituki wrote:thanks maximoo. i don't think i can not tell him off though, its just an uh-uh (like saying no). its not acceptable for him to growl at her.

Having taken on 2 dogs that had been taught not to growl I can tell you this is extremely dangerous, I have the scars to prove it. Dogs growl for a reason, and that is to tell you there is something wrong and he needs you to help him out, if you don't help him out it will be your fault your daughter is bitten not him but he will pay with his life because you will then have him pts.

You took him on, you own it to him to give him the same protection from your daughter as you give your daughter from him. He is a dog not a human, the only way he can tell you is to growl, if you don't listen your daughter will eventually be bitten.

Saying it isn't acceptable for him to growl, if you want a dog that doesn't growl then get a stuffy cuddle toy dog. Dogs do growl to communicate.

i do try and put him in a separate area of the lounge/kitchen to sleep that my daughter can't get to, but he prefers to be in the same area as the rest of us.

Sorry but try isn't enough, it is your home, you set the boundaries for both your dogs and your daughter, if you don't neither is safe.

This does sound harsh but as you have said to someone's very good advice that it isn't acceptable for your dog to be a dog, he is a dog, will always be a dog and as you took him on you owe it to him to take care of him properly and not expect him to be a stuffed toy.

You either listen to what he is telling you or your daughter will be bitten one day, and you will be at fault for not listening to him. Having brought up children with dogs it can be done but children also need boundaries so they can live peacefully with dogs.

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:26 am

A link on growling that someone posted on another site -

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/obey-thy-dog

Pam

Noobs · Post by **Noobs** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:57 am

If he likes to be in the same room with everyone, could you put him in an X-pen so he and your daughter can be safe with each other in the room?

Also, one of the things that would really help you is to learn how to read his body language. As Nettle said, he probably gave you plenty of signals that he's not comfortable, and it led to the growl because he was running out of options. As you have learned your daughter's signals, I'm sure, you would have to invest a little bit of time into learning your dog's as well. Behaviors such as turning his head away from you if you're trying to hold his face and kiss him (ok, you didn't say you do that, but I do it to my dog and he tolerates it for a bit then eventually turns away from me to show me he's had enough

) are signals that he's not comfortable.

I think everyone here will agree that it is very good that you never leave your daughter and the dogs alone unsupervised. And of course your daughter's safety is a priority. But you must understand that your dog is not being aggressive or dominant; he is communicating with you. So hopefully you'll learn his signals and/or simply keep your daughter from getting too close from him so he doesn't have to resort to growling.

To put a human perspective on it: Your dog, at his age, is probably the equvalent of your daughter at her age. If your daughter is uncomfortable or scared, she'll probably whine or cry. But you won't tell her off, will you? You'll probably soothe her, speak gently to get her to stop (i.e. "It's ohhh-kayyyyy" as opposed to "uh-uh!"), or figure out why she's upset - did that strange man get too close to her face? - and remove her from the situation. So your dog needs and deserves the same.

Good luck.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:53 am

Just to add - if you Xpen or cage your dog, then that is HIS safe space and nobody should be allowed to go up to the barrier and interact with him. NOBODY. Be firm with adults and children about this.

Otherwise the safe space becomes unsafe because he is helpless and can't get away from being teased. Yes, that is teasing, however well meant. If interaction is desired, he should be invited out of his pen into the main room.

Stay with us

we can help you make this work.

MaiasMom · Post by **MaiasMom** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:10 pm

I have to ask, what is a Kelpi dog, ok, I am an American and don't think I ever heard this term before. Educate me please

Noobs · Post by **Noobs** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:46 pm

I didn't know either but here's one of the sites I came across googling Kelpies:

http://www.kelpiesinc.com/

There are Australian ones and I think Irish ones as well.

tukituki · Post by **tukituki** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:47 pm

thanks most of you for your helpful posts. my dog is an australian kelpie, which is basically an australian sheepdog. they are a medium sized dog that are extremely intelligent, and if not a working dog needs to have their minds stimulated. we plan to do agility with our boy once he's older.

i never taught my retriever not to growl! she has always loved children and adores my daughter. she is the sort of dog that could be a guide dog, she really cares about people. she was almost a search and rescue dog. i am not trying to stop my kelpie from growling at everything, just my daughter. he enjoys playing with her when he is alert. but when he is tired or just chilling, he lets out a sort of growl to my daughter. it is no more than this and hasn't progressed to anything else. i have listened to your advice and if it occurs ask my daughter to come over to me, and to leave him alone.

kelpies are the sort of dogs that have to be part of the family. so if i put him in another room to sleep he won't settle, he'll be on edge. he certainly has a personality like no other dog and he fits in well with our family, so he will not be going to another home! we'll make it work for everyone. he is extremely loyal and is a really handsome boy. i guess sometimes he needs space from energetic toddlers and that;s him trying to tell me. he doesn't usually give any other signs as he's asleep!

thanks for your help everyone, i think we'll be ok from here.

:O)

Leigha · Post by **Leigha** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:38 pm

If he likes to be with the family, just get him a small crate that can be his place to go when he wants to be left alone. He can see through it so he can see you guys, and you wouldn't even have to shut the door and close him in it, it can just be his little chill space when he doesn't want to play with your little girl.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:56 am

tukituki wrote: kelpies are the sort of dogs that have to be part of the family. so if i put him in another room to sleep he won't settle, he'll be on edge. he certainly has a personality like no other dog and he fits in well with our family, so he will not be going to another home! we'll make it work for everyone. he is extremely loyal and is a really handsome boy. i guess sometimes he needs space from energetic toddlers and that;s him trying to tell me. he doesn't usually give any other signs as he's asleep.

Kelpies are lovely dogs and I am pleased you are sticking by him, the problem with toddlers is they are unpredictable which frightens many dogs, it seems your dog is not frightened of your daughter so you are lucky there.

What I taught my dogs and children was the dog's bed was their safe area and if the dog went in there the children had to keep away, my dog was still part of my family but had the peace and quiet she needed when tired. I wouldn't allow any other children or adults go to my dog if she was in her bed either, this caused some upsets with other parents but it was my house and my house rules and was up to me to protect my dog.

Look on the growling as communication, not all growling is aggression, in fact very little is, most is communication. It is your dog telling your daughter he wants to rest, it is when this is ignored that you get problems.

Teaching your daughter not to approach him when he is in his bed or asleep is also teaching her to respect animals and think about their needs, very few children seem to learn this these days so your daughter will have an advantage.

As my children grew they became inseperable from my dog, she went everywhere with them, I knew she would protect them and they had so much fun with her, get it right now and your daughter will have a wonderful life with your dog as her companion.