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This is my first post on this forum and I firstly wanted to say how useful I have found the threads that are already here.
My questions are around what I have read here (and in various other sites and books) on the topic of bite inhibition. To give some background I am the proud owner of a beautiful nine week old Doberman *****, who came to my home when she was seven weeks old. Whilst she is the light of my life, she has very sharp little teeth which she is not afraid to use!
Whilst she has been in her new home I have been trying to get her not to bite at all, which I now realize is not the way forward, however in my defence my theory was that I don’t want to raise a dog, which will grow up to be big and powerful, who thinks that its OK to chomp people. Although I understand that this behaviour is mainly just play, my puppy also bites me if I go to remove her from something she is gnawing. I imagine that this is defiance rather than play.
The methods I have employed in order to try to dissuade her from biting are a combination of pretty much all of the methods I have read about (inconsistency I hear you cry and with hindsight you are probably right!). Ignoring her has been effective when it involves my feet and legs, however it is more difficult to use this approach when it is your hands, as it hurts more and also this is your main point of contact with your pup. The yelping and leaving the room technique has had very limited success, but that could well be due to my lack of patience, inconsistency and a rather rubbish yelping technique! Finally, the saying 'No' in a low tone whilst physically removing her (picking her up / taking the item from her) or restraining her (rolling her on her back and holding her there till she stops biting) seems to be the key to unleashing all hell!! She simply ups the ante and comes back at me harder the next time.
So, given the above my questions are as follows:-
1) If I have found ignoring her the best method, do I simply buy some gloves to protect my hands so I can hold out with this one longer? Also what do I therefore do when she bites me for removing her / taking something off her, as surely if I ignore her then and let her carry on gnawing then she will learn that biting will get rid of me!
2) If I am to allow her to continue to 'mouth' me, how long should this continue for, as surely I do not want to end up with a fully grown Doberman who thinks its acceptable to put her teeth on people. This will undoubtedly land us both in hot water.
3) Finally, is the act of her biting me when I try to correct her a form of dominance behaviour or is this simply puppy seeing what I will let her get away with?
Any advice that you could give me on this would be greatly appreciated, as I am doing my level best to raise a well adjusted, friendly and happy dog.
Mouthing is a funny thing with puppies only because it is so natural to them. I do not think, personally, that she is trying to display dominance over you by biting when you are removing her from something, it is more likely she has figured out that you just might let her go if she bites hard enough !
As far as stopping the biting, because you CAN teach your dog not to bite people at all by giving it plenty of other things to chew on such as Nylabones or the like. Puppies tend to get upset stomachs when given rawhides/pig ears and such, so reserve those for older puppies/dogs when possible
One thing you may want to try is noise aversion. Try shaking a can filled with rocks/sounding a horn when the puppy bites you. This sends a message that doing that behavior results in something unpleasant.
Ignoring the dog is usually most helpful when the puppy bites too hard in play, because you send the message that the fun stops when the behavior happens. But if you are not engaging the puppy when the biting occurs, all you are accomplishing is telling the dog that biting will get rid of you, which can give the dog the idea that s/he is in control!
Anyway, give it a go and let us know if it works. I hope I was able to be of some help to you
Proud Mom to Lexie, Callie, and BC.
Always in spirit with Taffy, Cosmo, & Kristy who have gone to places better than those they have left.
Yep, dont be inconsistent! (it sounds SO easy and its really really not at all easy to do!).
Firstly, sorry Lexie but sound aversion may seem like the answer but the possible bad side effects are in my opinion just NOT worth the risk. For me aversive methods are a last resort and not necessary in this case.
Ok, she has something and is chewing it and you dont want her to chew it.
Firstly - should it be where she can find it? Ie if its your mobile phone or your shoes, then the solution to that is to put them away! Simple, no aversion therapy needed there.
If its the table legs or chair legs or door frames, nope you cant put those away. Similar if its a rug or other item that lives on the floor....
Clearly, you cant ignore her, she could hurt herself, items are expensive etc.
The confrontational method isnt working, shes got pointy teeth and knows how to use them. (and this is why i say no to aversive methods, shes going to get bigger, aversion works by FEAR and teaching any dog but especially a potentially big one using fear is never wise, i bet she can as an adult frighten you way more than you can frighten her!).
So dont confront her, its that easy.
Instead, teach her a behaviour that replaces th eone you dont want.
If shes coming to you to play with a raggy rope, she cant be chewing the sofa, if shes sitting she cant be jumping, if shes in her bed she cant be begging at the table.
For every behaviour you dont want, instead of thinking 'dont do that' which is a vague concept for an animal that needs to DO something (if she didnt need to be doing something shed not be chewing in the first place), think 'do THIS instead'.
Pick a behaviour that rules out the one you dont want, teach it to her using treats and kindness, and gradually phase that in.
Start teaching her the new behaviour first, dont try to teach it when shes already doing the 'bad thing'.
Then when she knows the new behaviour and knows its rewarding, ask her when she thinks about doing hte bad thing (not when shes already doing it).
Gradually build it up so it gets harder and harder, ie eventually you can call her off chewing the door frames when shes really enjoying it.
Make sure you start off easy - we dont teach kids by starting them off at 4 years old with degree standard work, same with dogs, set them up to succeed!
I lived with a doberman before. His name was Muggins, and what a complete doll he was!
I made some comments below.
Ocelot0411 wrote:
1) If I have found ignoring her the best method, do I simply buy some gloves to protect my hands so I can hold out with this one longer?
Remove your hands. Keep them up in the air or behind your back. Don't allow her to continue to bite. I would let her mouth gentle, but the first hard bearing down I would yelp in a very high-pitched tone and remove my hands. Just for a count to 10, then try again to pat her...very gently.
Ocelot0411 wrote:
1) Also what do I therefore do when she bites me for removing her / taking something off her, as surely if I ignore her then and let her carry on gnawing then she will learn that biting will get rid of me!
Don't take anything from her. She should not have access to anything that she is not allowed to have, but if she does, you should be trading up. Give her an alternative that she is allowed to have. She cannot bite you if your hands are not there...see above.
Ocelot0411 wrote:
2) If I am to allow her to continue to 'mouth' me, how long should this continue for, as surely I do not want to end up with a fully grown Doberman who thinks its acceptable to put her teeth on people.
You need to decide if you will alllow her to mouth you gently (prefered) or not at all. If she does start to mouth you just remove your hands. Give her an alternative that you WANT her to chew. I use Kongs..I fill them with softened kibble, freeze them and give puppies and dog that to keep them busy.
Ocelot0411 wrote:
3) Finally, is the act of her biting me when I try to correct her a form of dominance behaviour or is this simply puppy seeing what I will let her get away with?
Don't correct her. This is a postive forum, so only postive methods will be advised. A puppy does not know what a correction is, or why, so you need to allow her to develope and grow with confidence and guidence.
Hands should be only used for patting, rubbing gently and food. Forget about forcing her into doing anything. Use bribes and rewards, at this age. And forget the roll-overs. That will only create a fearful and untrusting puppy.
One more bit of advice. Take the word "dominance" out of your vocabulary, with reference to you and your puppy. She is being a normal puppy, not trying to take over the world. It will be a lot easier on both of you if you work with her and not against her. That requires a whole different mindset, but is much, much safer and fun for both of you.
Wot Dogsrus said..... remove teh word dominance, it has no bearing on your relationship with your dog.
Lots of people talk about it, but all it will do is taint the partnership between you and your dog, setting up a feeling of 'me versus my dog' rather than 'me AND my dog'....
As my housemate says...... chillax! Your dog is just a dog, not an evil overlord, hellbent on world domination, she doesnt want to take over the universe or anything else.
She just wants to do the things she is instinctively driven to do, and enjoy herself.
Ok I am convinced.............I will go back to the ignoring the play biting and trying to distract her from chewing things I don't want. Just to clarify, the things I have tried to correct her on are fixed objects, doors, walls, sofa, etc. As I very quickly learned that anything I am not happy for her to eat (i.e. my favourite Carvella boots!) should be way, way, out of her grasp!! I also suspect that consistency and patience will need to be employed in generous measure.
With regards to my 'dominance' comments, I based this on things I have read about dog behaviour and how important it is to establish yourself as 'pack leader'. However, I totally agree with the logic that she will be very big soon and I certainly wouldn't want to get into a confrontation with her then! Also I would hate the idea of her fearing / mistrusting me in any way, as I love her dearly and only ever want her to view me as a trusted friend.
As Ellie is the first puppy I have had on my own (I have had dogs before but only when living with my parents), I am fairly new to all of this and will not therefore always get it right However, I am doing lots of reading, asking expert advice (from my vet and forums such as this) and will also be taking her to puppy / socialisation / obedience classes throughout her early life. So folks, please bear with my as I am doing my level best!!
So thanks ever so much for all of the tips given and I will put them into practice with immediate effect. I will keep you all posted to let you know how we get on.
I think you are pretty on the ball from your posts, doing way better than i was in your shoes i can say!
With the fixed objects, figure out when shes likely to have a go at those, and try to get in there first with a better suggestion before she does it.
You can also try putting some foul tasting spray on the things she chooses but beware, without satisfying her need to chew with something else, they wont work.
Good chewy things are, kongs, goodie ships, raw bones (great big ones, thats what those puppy teeth are for!), ragger ropes are good too. Some of these you can also soak and freeze for an even better cooling chew toy.
Now, The Great Dominance HooHaa.....
The sad fact is, there are a million and one dog training books out there and a lot of them are quite old. Of the modern ones, many are written by those who have only ever used the old fashioned methods - some are written by people who have very little active experience of more than one breed, or of other dogs beyond their own.
The dominance/pack theory works on the principle that dogs are wolves in cuter clothing, and insists we treat them like an alpha wolf would treat his or her pack members.
Here comes problem one.
The understanding of wolf behaviour used in this theory comes from very limited studies of ...... ta daaaaa, captive wolves. And unsurprisingly, captive wolves dont actually behave like wild ones.
Some of these captive wolf packs are wholly unnatural being frequently handled by humans, and often made up of odd selections of adult wolves who have themselves come from non-wild backgrounds. Sometimes these packs are not even all the same type of wolf!
So. Dominance Theory says treat your dog like a wolf. But we dont actually know that much about REAL wild wolf behaviour.
Problem two. Dogs are not wolves - a better comparison for a 'wild' model would be wolf cubs, dogs are bred to behave and resemble puppies all their lives, thats the bit we find attractive about dogs.
Another more useful comparison would be to watch feral groups of dogs and see how they interact.
Problem three: Dominance/pack theory assumes dogs think that their human social group members are dogs.
This is when you think about it more closely, quite a stupid idea - dogs can discern between sheep, cat, ferret, rabbit, hare, fox, cow, horse..... (some of these animals are for chasing and killing, some are for rounding up, some are not to be chased at all - more so, some will kick and some will bite and some will run and twist and jink...... )
Why on earth would an animal who is capable of applying different expectations of behaviour from all those species, assume that we humans are actually dogs?
Well, they dont, BUT..... dogs can only speak 'dog'. Unlike us, they cant really learn another language, so of course they must speak to us, in 'dog'.
That doesnt mean they think we ARE dogs, no more than you think the spanish person you are desperately trying to speak to in English, is actually English..... its just that English is the only tool you have!
So.....
Dogs know we are not dogs. Dogs dont behave like wolves, or like captive wolves. Captive wolves do not behave like wild wolves and neither behave the way we think they do.
Now - ill agree with one premise of dominance/pack theory - that dogs need a leader. Yes, they do absolutely, just like children do, like a work group needs a team leader, like an office needs a boss, like a team needs a captain.....
But - dominance theory asks that you apply that leadership in a totally unnatural way.
Lets go back and see those wolves again...
Some of the things dominance/pack theory tells us to do, to establish 'pack leadership' or 'alpha male/female' or whatever hat you want to put on it....
Alpha eats first - so eat a biscuit or pretned to eat food from your dogs bowl before you hand it over.
Mmm - bit ropey this one. The entire point of the existance of a leader is to ensure the saftey of the group - that means for wolves, the survival of future generations.
So really, puppies and lactating bitches eat first, not the alpha.
Is it then a sensible controlled queue for the food, with the alpha up front after the pups and the omega at the back?
Nope. Its a semi controlled free for all, the omega tries to get what he can and pushes in front - he is not interested in pack survival much, hes the omega, the bottom of the heap, hes interested in himself first and foremost.
Heirarchy doesnt work in the rigid way wed like to think it does. Its us that puts firm labels on people, boss one, boss two, boss two's assistant, etc etc....
Ok, another dominance theory factlet....
Alpha goes through narrow spaces first - always make sure you go through doorways before your dog.
Again if you think practically, its quite dodgy this.
Granted in a busy home its nice not to have dogs barging past you, but.....
Imagine a narrow rocky gully out in the wilds of northern america..... whats on the other side of that gully, whats round that corner that you cant see?
Are YOU going to see, as the alpha, as the wolf that rules the pack and ensures its safety at all times? Are you going to risk your life?
If there is a great big angry bear, or even a wild stallion with a band of mares with foals, on the other side..... are you going to risk getting eating or getting your head smashed in by frightened thrashing hooves?
No are you heck as like, you shove mr omega wolf through, HE doesnt matter, he is not crucial to the survival of the pack he is expendable.
SO no, the sensible alpha wolf hangs back letting the stupider, less useful pack members through, if they die its not safe!
Now, heres a biggy. Alpha Rolling.
Dominance and pack theory suggests that the alpha wolf would discipline a subordinate animal by rolling him on his back and pinning him there.
It suggests that to exert your dominance upon your dog you should do the same.
The real story is slightly different. A belly up position is not forced by the alpha, it is offered by the subordinate. The only time a belly up position is forced is when the alpha actually means to kill the other animal - its not a lesson thats repeated as the other animal is then dead.
Thers a huge difference between someone offering submission, and submission forced through threat of death!
If you roll a dog over and pin him there, you are saying 'i intend to kill you'.
Does that really mean the animal will then respect you? If your boss holds a gun to your head, do you respect him?
Of course not - and the results of such methods can go either way.....
on the one hand you end up with a dog who fears you and behaves as you wish because of that fear. Mmm, unpleasant.
On the other hand, you have a dog who determines never to be put in that position again and he will get you before you get him, perhaps this time, perhaps the next time he feels threatened by you.
The huge huge problem with books that tell you you must establish yourself as pack leader is they suggest that your dog is hellbent on dominating you, which just isnt true. Then it makes you feel as if you must dominate your dog which sets up a very unpleasant attitude.
If you feel your dog is trying to take over, you tend to read situations quite differently (this applies to lots of situations, if you feel someone doesnt like you, you take what they say often quite badly, for instance!).
When i have a dog who for some reason growls at me, i think 'what have i done for my dog to say 'go away i feel threatened'.
When someone who fully subscribes to dominance theory has a dog who growls at them, they think 'how DARE you'....
A growl is not a rude thing, its just a tool in a dogs toolkit, it says 'i feel threatened, please, go away'. Its up to the clever human who IS capable of learning different languages to learn this and read it correctly.
So, yes dogs need a leader, but think to yourself 'team leader' not 'evil dictator!'
You might ask 'but dominance theory has worked for so many for so long'.....
Id say, its worked DESPITE the dominance content, not because of it. If you remove all the horrible things from it and all the misconceptions, it basically instills the importance of boundaries and consistency.
Firm boundaries and consistant application of them will ALWAYS reap rewards, although if you consistantly punish your dog the reward you reap will be a fearful animal.....if you consistantly reward your dog for biting your husband as he gets into bed you reap the reward of never having to sleep with your husband!
So i reckon, forget the wolves, leave them to be wolves - treat your dog like a dog, give him kind treatment, offer plenty of reward for doing the right things, set him up so he is unlikely to do the wrong things. Understand his needs and his language, be his mentor, his leader, his partner.
Sorry, but I have one further question. It is becoming very difficult to ignore her biting my legs, as it is not just around the feet / ankle area anymore (which trainers and thick socks fixed) but she now jumps up and bites my lower legs knees and thighs. I might add that she has progressed to biting down hard. If I yelp it just makes it worse as it seems to excite her, similarly if I try to pick her up to get her off my leg
Obviously 'removing' my legs from her isn't that easy as this often happens at the top end of our large garden. I then have to get to the bottom of the garden in order to 'walk away' from her. This is a long walk with a small Doberman attached to your leg Any tips anyone?
Would she find it amusing if you really SCREAMED as if your leg was bitten right off, and then fell to the ground in a head, as if dead.
Then curl in a ball and completely ignore her, totally, actually pretend you are dead.
I suggest this as it may just shock her out of it, you really would have to absolutely scream, not a fun yelp, i mean proper 'my leg just came right off' scream, and then dont just lie down, drop to the ground in a heap and ignore her.
This would cut out all the reward for practicing the behaviour, once you are 'dead' then youd be ignoring her so again, no reward coming fromthere...
If you are going to try this, id recommend you do it with another person present and wear lots of protective clothing and make absolutely sure you cover your face when you are onthe ground.
In all likelyhood it will work but she MAY think that biting you MORE will make you get up, so have another person handy to remove her.
There are other methods, some of them not particularly pleasant though, so id try this first and see if a few staged repetitions of it give her the idea that perhaps its not such a fun thing to do.
Other wise id go with wearing three pairs of jeans and just walking back in, in a really robot fashion, ie ignoring her, the second she bites - but as she can still bite as you walk in, that will take time for her to suss out.
Oh my word, my neighbours are going to think i am a complete loon!! Mind you they probably already do if they have seen me playing in the garden with her, as we are very silly and I even make her toys sing songs to her as we play, which she loves!
Just to update you, I seem to have made a break through on the hand biting front. This is from a combination of removing my hands & ignoring her, but also a cute little trick which maybe specific to my pup, but worth other people trying too.
You see Ellie loves nothing more than climbing on to my lap for a little sleep and will do pretty much anything to be allowed to stay there. So quite simply when she climbs on to my lap, the minute she bites me i just say 'no' in a firm low voice and push her gently off (we sit on the floor for this little game) after about the third attempt she gets the idea and starts to lick my hands and arms instead then curls up and sleeps for a while. It adorable!!!
I guess this does goes to show that you are quite right that puppies just want our attention and need to learn that biting is not the way to do it.
I will let you know how the 'falling down dead' trick goes. Fingers crossed.
She simply ups the ante and comes back at me harder the next time.
!
However, I am doing lots of reading, asking expert advice (from my vet and forums such as this) and will also be taking her to puppy / socialisation / obedience classes throughout her early life. So folks, please bear with my as I am doing my level best!! 
Any tips anyone?