We met a dog trainer in a park nearby who seemed to be aligned with our thinking of training so we asked her to help us with our puppy who was mouthing us a lot. She said after her assessment of him yesterday, that although he was not aggressive, (14 week old golden mix rescue puppy) he definitely was "dominant" and strong willed. She mentioned that we might "rehome" him if he became too much for us to handle. We want to keep him - he just must stop biting/attacking us. We are covered with puncture wounds and scratches from those razor sharp puppy teeth of his. This is beyond the usual puppy teething/biting issues.
He is a smart little guy and learns most things fast and we adore him. We can go for a long walk with him (he gets two long ones a day) and he is totally extremely gentle and nice/sweet to all the dogs, children and people we meet along the way. Then, out of the blue he will jump at us and start biting our legs or whatever else he makes contact with (he does this in the house as well) and generally does not let go without a struggle. If he does let go he will only launch another attack immediately. We have tried so many many many techniques (many of which were suggested by people on this blog and we have practiced them repeatedly and consistently) and none of them really work and most of them only insight him more.
So, we need some advice from someone with a similar problem who had definite success. We would prefer not to manhandle him; nonetheless, we are running out of ideas. His biting/attacking behavior must be gotten under control quickly since my husband is losing patience with it all and quite frankly, so am I.
All help is gratefully appreciated.
Trainer suggested we might "rehome" this rescue pu
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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cookielover96
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:35 pm
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My dog has had that problem not as bad though. What I did was just do what Victoria did, if he bites make a high pitch sound, cross your arms and walk away giving him the cold shoulder. My dog cought on quick and hardly bites now but if it doesn't work I always refer to this website (http:/www.1doggy.com) it has many dog problems and why dogs do it and how to solve it.
I hope it can help
I hope it can help
Thank you for your thoughtfulness. As I mentioned in my earlier email we have consistently and repeatedly tried all the typical techniques. It is not possible to stand still, and do as you suggested, while he is literally digging into our flesh. We can only tolerate the pain for so long. I have even taken to wearing army boots, long pants and sweatshirts in 90+ degree weather. Turning my back, freezing and ignoring him, crossing my arms, yelping, growling, etc. etc. etc. has not had an impact on this little guy. Thank you for trying to help and I will check out the website you recommend.
He's only 14 weeks old, he's not dominant, he sounds like he has very little impulse control. Did you see Victoria's show last Saturday, with the Labradoodle whose owner had no control over him? Victoria taught her to play impulse control games with him.
I found this document with some details on a what the author called the "Chill Out" game.
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf
Here's another with more games:
http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/7 ... -Dogs.aspx
I wouldn't do the Fetch and Wait game unless your dog can "drop" a toy reliably. Not just yet anyway. As for the "Leave It" game, I would not put the toy on the dog's paw at first - put it on the floor a couple of feet away - because a treat on his paw might be too much temptation for a beginner.
My dog was very rough when we first got him at 8 months old and I actually was scared of him for a couple of weeks because if I tried to give him a time out behind a baby gate he would show his teeth and growl at me. I made lots of mistakes back then; however, slowly but surely with impulse control games and lots and lots of patience (and lots of setbacks and having to overcome my desire to give up) my dog has made tons of improvements. We are able to play mouthing games with him - putting our hands near his face, etc. which is probably annoying and we should probably stop - and his mouth is very gentle.
Also if you're interested and have the means, find yourself a trainer who doesn't give you any mumbo-jumbo about dominance.
I'm almost finished reading Patricia McConnell and Karen London's "Play Together Stay Together" which has tips on how to play with your dog. I got lots of great info from it, so I recommend it.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... y-together
I found this document with some details on a what the author called the "Chill Out" game.
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf
Here's another with more games:
http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/7 ... -Dogs.aspx
I wouldn't do the Fetch and Wait game unless your dog can "drop" a toy reliably. Not just yet anyway. As for the "Leave It" game, I would not put the toy on the dog's paw at first - put it on the floor a couple of feet away - because a treat on his paw might be too much temptation for a beginner.
My dog was very rough when we first got him at 8 months old and I actually was scared of him for a couple of weeks because if I tried to give him a time out behind a baby gate he would show his teeth and growl at me. I made lots of mistakes back then; however, slowly but surely with impulse control games and lots and lots of patience (and lots of setbacks and having to overcome my desire to give up) my dog has made tons of improvements. We are able to play mouthing games with him - putting our hands near his face, etc. which is probably annoying and we should probably stop - and his mouth is very gentle.
Also if you're interested and have the means, find yourself a trainer who doesn't give you any mumbo-jumbo about dominance.
I'm almost finished reading Patricia McConnell and Karen London's "Play Together Stay Together" which has tips on how to play with your dog. I got lots of great info from it, so I recommend it.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... y-together
Sorry - I wanted to add that for the "Leave It" game I would go with these instructions instead:Noobs wrote:
http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/7 ... -Dogs.aspx
I wouldn't do the Fetch and Wait game unless your dog can "drop" a toy reliably. Not just yet anyway. As for the "Leave It" game, I would not put the toy on the dog's paw at first - put it on the floor a couple of feet away - because a treat on his paw might be too much temptation for a beginner.
http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... eaveit.htm
Because the dog should never get to take the thing that he leaves.
more thank yous....
Victoria's show is on tape from last Saturday and I will check it out, along with all of your generous suggestions, as soon as possible. I did not realize that raising a puppy is a full time job if done properly and I do work. Thank goodness, I can work at home, otherwise, I could not imagine taking this on.
He does the "Wait and Fetch" game real well. At first I used a ball and now I can use pretty much anything and he will bring it back to me, drop it at my feet and sit. He has so many good qualities. When we get this behavior challenge handled he will truly be a blessing to be with. Well, more of a blessing actually. He already is a blessing in our lives.
OK, impulse control. We will look into it. Thanks sooooooooooo much.
He does the "Wait and Fetch" game real well. At first I used a ball and now I can use pretty much anything and he will bring it back to me, drop it at my feet and sit. He has so many good qualities. When we get this behavior challenge handled he will truly be a blessing to be with. Well, more of a blessing actually. He already is a blessing in our lives.
OK, impulse control. We will look into it. Thanks sooooooooooo much.
Hey, if he's really good at fetching and giving you things, why not teach him what things are called, name his toys, "bone", "ball", "bear", "fish", things like that. That way you can make the fetch game more challenging and tire his brain out. If you google "train dog name objects" you'll find lots of pages that teach how. You're very lucky you work from home. I wish I could so that I could spend more time training my dog. Good luck!
Have you tried time outs? With my pup, what we did was the yelp and cold shoulder routine. If he stopped, good. If he kept going, I scooped him up, and put him in his crate for a few minutes until he calmed down. He is still mouthy when we pet him, but I think that is more teething. It has stopped alot of the tearing after, cuts, scrapes, etc. (and he went after someone to the point where he grabbed their ear and bit it to where they almost needed stiches).
time outs et al
We have tried the "time out" concept and I think he does not understand it. When we give him some time in his room after he goes after us he will just start the whole thing all over again and then we put him back, etc. I do not think he gets the connection.
I think he feels that biting us is playing where he has the upper hand although I believe there is an element of him just not respecting us. After all, we see him with other puppies and dogs and people in the park and he is very well behaved in those circumstances. We have never raised a puppy before and I think he knows this on some level and takes advantage of this if this is possible.
We believe he needs to be around other puppies where they can teach him how being bitten is not too swift. We are working on this angle and we hope in the next couple of weeks we will be able to do this.
The yelping, cold shoulder is totally ignored and when we scoop him up he bites the heck out of us in the process and then thinks his room is punishment. Thank you, though for your suggestions. All help is appreciated.
For now, I have stocked up on bandaids.
I think he feels that biting us is playing where he has the upper hand although I believe there is an element of him just not respecting us. After all, we see him with other puppies and dogs and people in the park and he is very well behaved in those circumstances. We have never raised a puppy before and I think he knows this on some level and takes advantage of this if this is possible.
We believe he needs to be around other puppies where they can teach him how being bitten is not too swift. We are working on this angle and we hope in the next couple of weeks we will be able to do this.
The yelping, cold shoulder is totally ignored and when we scoop him up he bites the heck out of us in the process and then thinks his room is punishment. Thank you, though for your suggestions. All help is appreciated.
For now, I have stocked up on bandaids.
Hes not dominant.
Also at his age you CANNOT possibly have actually applied one method consistently for as long as it might actually take to achieve the result you want.
If you have tried lots of methods and you have had him since 8 weeks.... then you have tried a lot of things in a 6 week period... that isnt consistent!
Time out works but it must be applied properly.
Either remove yourself from the room, or remove him from the room and shut the door - do so without speaking to him and without making eyecontact and wherever possible, without leaping about or making any exciting (or ow im being bitten) type noises.
He must be 'timed out' for JUST a few seconds! Literally long enough for him to go 'what the.... hey!'....
NOT long enough for him to go 'what the... hey.... hey YOU... ARGHHHHHH..... ah ill do this instead..'.
Somewhere between five and 30 seconds is all you need.
You WILL absolutely have to repeat these time outs over and over and over and over and over and over, sometimes you will feel like a yo yo getting up putting him out waiting, letting him back in.. getting up putting him out waiting, letting him back in.
With repetition he WILL grasp the idea that biting and lunging himself at you hard is NOT going to get him anywhere good at all.
In addition to this - you must provide suitable play/exercise for him. Long on lead walks are actually not suitable exercise/play/training for a 14 week old golden mix pup. On the whole, its too much after a certain period he stops learning anything useful and becomes bored (or even if hes still interested its not sinking in any more) and quite probably overtired.
Short on lead walks to teach him how to walk on a lead and to introduce him to the various things he will meet in life - instead of two one hour walks.... try 10 ten to fifteen minute trundles about outside on the lead, meeting people, traffic, new sounds and sights, learning to walk nicely on the lead.
This will tire him out far more (you can still include some running about playing with toys and some meeting and playing with nice friendly dogs off lead, but limit it because puppies DONT know when to stop and will over run themselves!).
Then fit in some games, and some training sessions - clicker training is brilliant and puppies pick it up really fast, take a look at the sticky thread at the top of the forum.
He is definately not being dominant, he may be a pushy character, he may be a smart and very resiliant sorta guy who doesnt get upset when things go wrong but tries that bit harder - this absolutely does NOT mean he wont or cant learn to behave and it does not mean you need to rehome him (And any trainer saying THAT after meeting you for a few minutes, and claiming your pup is dominant, is in the wrong damn job!).
You do have to make your expectations realistic though - its likely hes learned as a pup that if hes rough and tough and plays hard he will get a rewarding experience. You must channel that behaviour into appropriate outlets that you like, and make any attempt at doing this inappropriately unrewarding (which the time out used properly, will do).
You cannot do one and not the other though - if you JUST try time outs without replacing the unwanted behaviour with a suitable alternative, he will either not stop... or he will find something else to do which is likely to be worse.
He is only 14 weeks old, hes not likely to totally remember that he shouldnt play bite or barge about like a fool until he is much much older - this is just puppies its not him being horrible or a difficult dog. If you honestly dont think you can handle him being a puppy and developing at his own natural pace... then by all means consider rehoming, but otherwise he has to have the time he needs to learn, it will NOT happen tomorrow, or even next week... but you CAN make progress with just a little bit of work.... you will see results but they wont be second nature to him for some time to come.
Also at his age you CANNOT possibly have actually applied one method consistently for as long as it might actually take to achieve the result you want.
If you have tried lots of methods and you have had him since 8 weeks.... then you have tried a lot of things in a 6 week period... that isnt consistent!
Time out works but it must be applied properly.
Either remove yourself from the room, or remove him from the room and shut the door - do so without speaking to him and without making eyecontact and wherever possible, without leaping about or making any exciting (or ow im being bitten) type noises.
He must be 'timed out' for JUST a few seconds! Literally long enough for him to go 'what the.... hey!'....
NOT long enough for him to go 'what the... hey.... hey YOU... ARGHHHHHH..... ah ill do this instead..'.
Somewhere between five and 30 seconds is all you need.
You WILL absolutely have to repeat these time outs over and over and over and over and over and over, sometimes you will feel like a yo yo getting up putting him out waiting, letting him back in.. getting up putting him out waiting, letting him back in.
With repetition he WILL grasp the idea that biting and lunging himself at you hard is NOT going to get him anywhere good at all.
In addition to this - you must provide suitable play/exercise for him. Long on lead walks are actually not suitable exercise/play/training for a 14 week old golden mix pup. On the whole, its too much after a certain period he stops learning anything useful and becomes bored (or even if hes still interested its not sinking in any more) and quite probably overtired.
Short on lead walks to teach him how to walk on a lead and to introduce him to the various things he will meet in life - instead of two one hour walks.... try 10 ten to fifteen minute trundles about outside on the lead, meeting people, traffic, new sounds and sights, learning to walk nicely on the lead.
This will tire him out far more (you can still include some running about playing with toys and some meeting and playing with nice friendly dogs off lead, but limit it because puppies DONT know when to stop and will over run themselves!).
Then fit in some games, and some training sessions - clicker training is brilliant and puppies pick it up really fast, take a look at the sticky thread at the top of the forum.
He is definately not being dominant, he may be a pushy character, he may be a smart and very resiliant sorta guy who doesnt get upset when things go wrong but tries that bit harder - this absolutely does NOT mean he wont or cant learn to behave and it does not mean you need to rehome him (And any trainer saying THAT after meeting you for a few minutes, and claiming your pup is dominant, is in the wrong damn job!).
You do have to make your expectations realistic though - its likely hes learned as a pup that if hes rough and tough and plays hard he will get a rewarding experience. You must channel that behaviour into appropriate outlets that you like, and make any attempt at doing this inappropriately unrewarding (which the time out used properly, will do).
You cannot do one and not the other though - if you JUST try time outs without replacing the unwanted behaviour with a suitable alternative, he will either not stop... or he will find something else to do which is likely to be worse.
He is only 14 weeks old, hes not likely to totally remember that he shouldnt play bite or barge about like a fool until he is much much older - this is just puppies its not him being horrible or a difficult dog. If you honestly dont think you can handle him being a puppy and developing at his own natural pace... then by all means consider rehoming, but otherwise he has to have the time he needs to learn, it will NOT happen tomorrow, or even next week... but you CAN make progress with just a little bit of work.... you will see results but they wont be second nature to him for some time to come.
Errr...what emmabeth said.
Keep in mind that all the stuff I said was from experience with a dog that I got from a shelter when he was 8 months old and not a pup that I was raising from 8 weeks, so I would strongly suggest taking emmabeth's advice before mine. Trust me, she knows worlds more than I do.
Keep in mind that all the stuff I said was from experience with a dog that I got from a shelter when he was 8 months old and not a pup that I was raising from 8 weeks, so I would strongly suggest taking emmabeth's advice before mine. Trust me, she knows worlds more than I do.
so true....
Emmabeth,
We never raised a puppy before and we thought we were doing everything we could do. Apparently not. We will take your sage wisdom to heart and work with the time out a lot more among other things.
We are not giving up on this rescue puppy. We are merely real tired and concerned that if we do not get it right immediately he will pass the sixteen week stage which we thought was when he does not pay attention to treats as much; it is difficult for them to ease into new experiences; etc. so we were trying to jam in as much as we could since we have adopted him. Obviously, it was too much too quickly and not enough of other things over a longer period of time. We will heed your advice (we have only to gain from it) and slow things down.
Thank you for your participation. You are appreciated enormously. We will begin our day anew with a different and more patient outlook.
We never raised a puppy before and we thought we were doing everything we could do. Apparently not. We will take your sage wisdom to heart and work with the time out a lot more among other things.
We are not giving up on this rescue puppy. We are merely real tired and concerned that if we do not get it right immediately he will pass the sixteen week stage which we thought was when he does not pay attention to treats as much; it is difficult for them to ease into new experiences; etc. so we were trying to jam in as much as we could since we have adopted him. Obviously, it was too much too quickly and not enough of other things over a longer period of time. We will heed your advice (we have only to gain from it) and slow things down.
Thank you for your participation. You are appreciated enormously. We will begin our day anew with a different and more patient outlook.
You sound such a nice owner take heart: this phase passes.
Important - do not play rough and tumble games, squeal shout and run about, or do anything that gets the pup excited. Pups of this type fire up and then are full of stress hormones that can only be dissipated by physical action - oooh I'll bite HARRRRRD that feels better!
Calm and steady is the way. Don't let visitors wind him up either. Far too many people like to play power games with pups (and children) and then leave you with an over-excited babe that can't calm down because he is too hyped up.
take heart: this phase passes.Important - do not play rough and tumble games, squeal shout and run about, or do anything that gets the pup excited. Pups of this type fire up and then are full of stress hormones that can only be dissipated by physical action - oooh I'll bite HARRRRRD that feels better!
Calm and steady is the way. Don't let visitors wind him up either. Far too many people like to play power games with pups (and children) and then leave you with an over-excited babe that can't calm down because he is too hyped up.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Simba, sorry if i came across a bit harsh, i was worried this trainer has made you feel like this is a task you cannot complete .... this is just not the case but if you arent sure whats realistic and achieveable, and what isnt, you will get frustrated and upset by seemingly not getting anywhere.
Dont worry.. you WILL get there in the end and in the grand scheme of things..... a few months struggle.... compared to a further 12+ years of enjoying owning and sharing your life with your dog... its not so bad really!
Dont worry.. you WILL get there in the end and in the grand scheme of things..... a few months struggle.... compared to a further 12+ years of enjoying owning and sharing your life with your dog... its not so bad really!
We hired a trainer to come to our home and work with us and Bruiser when he was 6 months old. Pretty much because of the same issues you're having with your puppy and because our dogs would get into it fights over their food, toys, and me. She basically said the same things the one you met did--he was dominant, had low frustration level, it was probably genetic so harder to correct with behavior modification, but then added in that one of our dachshunds was afraid of him (he's naturally timid, and was meek before we got him and when strangers aren't around he shows no fear of Bru and they're little buddies). And that because of his age we would probably see little change in him--something about something or other being cemented at a certain age in puppies.
When she left I proceeded to cry for two days straight because I didn't want to give him up and just in general felt like I was the worst pet parent ever because I'd done something wrong.
That's when I came here and tried to read everything everyone posts to figure out ways to make all of my boys happy and healthy and peaceful. We exercise the pup more, take him to the park to play with the other dogs so he doesn't bother the ones at home (they're 13 and 7, so don't enjoy it as much as Bru), and have started feeding him a kibble that's lower in protein since the trainer said there was some sort of study that linked higher protein in the food and already aggressive dogs as having more aggression (or something like that).
It's gotten a lot better, some days are much better than others. But it's a pretty slow process. Just have patience. I'm not at all saying that our cases are exactly alike--but I do understand where you're coming from!
When she left I proceeded to cry for two days straight because I didn't want to give him up and just in general felt like I was the worst pet parent ever because I'd done something wrong.
That's when I came here and tried to read everything everyone posts to figure out ways to make all of my boys happy and healthy and peaceful. We exercise the pup more, take him to the park to play with the other dogs so he doesn't bother the ones at home (they're 13 and 7, so don't enjoy it as much as Bru), and have started feeding him a kibble that's lower in protein since the trainer said there was some sort of study that linked higher protein in the food and already aggressive dogs as having more aggression (or something like that).
It's gotten a lot better, some days are much better than others. But it's a pretty slow process. Just have patience. I'm not at all saying that our cases are exactly alike--but I do understand where you're coming from!
