dog refuses to wear head collar.....

[Mattie]

It worked for you Leigha, just because it is slightly different doesn't mean it is wrong. It worked witout causing your dog any stress which is what matters. Some methods suit some but not others.

Lis, nobody is attacking you, we are having a discussion, nothing more nothing less, I am sorry you are taking this personnally, nobody is being attacked.

When a trail harness is used for trailing, the dog is well in front of the handler because he is on a long line, when walking a dog normally he is on a short lead. Being on a short lead changes the way the harness works. This is a better explanation of how these harnesses work:

How a Harness Works


Different designs of harnesses do different jobs, and I prefer the trail type harness which is a webbing v fronted design. The V at the front means that the dog can't set its shoulders and push, like a horse into a collar, (horses push not pull).

The lead connects to the centre point of balance and the dog can't have his full body weight to push into like he can with a collar. A dog can push all their weight behind a collar. The lead clips to the main body strap that goes round the body behind the front legs. The further back this, the better, preferably where the ribs dip upward is ideal. If the dog creates tension in the lead, the body strap raises slightly upward, without causing pain, which interrupts the forward momentum, and the dog doesn't have enough power to push. If the handler is on the ground and the lead is low, the dog will be able to push into the harness more.

The main thing is the "Comfort Factor", the dog feels comfortable and surprisingly un restrained as it is evenly distributed so doesn't need to fight as with the lead to collar. Nothing tightens up or affects the dog's breathing, provided it is correctly fitted with V front going far enough down the chest, the dog is more relaxed and so is the handler. Good walking training is a doddle as the handler is more relaxed and can chatter away to the dog, the dog isn't concentrating on battling to breath or escape the neck pressure.

Noobs has found some of these harnesses in the USA

http://www.healthypets.com/surefithrns.html

http://www.canineoutfitters.com/1_nylon ... arness.htm

Another good harness is http://www.dog-games.co.uk/shop/Harness ... ece+Lined/ but don't know if you can get them in the USA.

You want to really help out, give me the information that will actually help me identify and find these magical harnesses.

We are all volunteers on here, we give our time free to help others out, we can only put up what whe have experienced ourselves which is why we only reply to some posts and not all of them. There is also the time factor, I have 6 dogs to care for, 3 I have to take one day at a time because of their health problems, another has just been diagnosed with early kidney failure.

Please people, don't take any of the posts personnally, when wrighting we have to talk generally, we don't know your circumstances so even if we wanted to, we can't attack you.

What wine does everyone want, white or red.

[Lis & Addy]

Emmabeth, thank you.

I am not sure it would be a good idea to special-order a custom-made harness from the UK, though. I want to be able to try things on Addy, to see for myself that they fit properly and comfortably, and to be able to form a real idea of whether it's going to work for her.

However, I would like to point out that I didn't ask you or Mattie or anyone else to tell me where to buy a trail harness. I asked for sufficiently specific information so that I could find them, since the generic term "trail harness" was not proving helpful.

Mattie has now provided that information, plus a sufficiently detailed explanation of the intended functioning that I'll be able to evaluate harnesses, PLUS some useful links. For that, Mattie, THANK YOU.

I do realize that everyone here is a volunteer. As for how stressed I have gotten--look back over these three pages. Look at the repeated denunciations of the EVILS of the Gentle Leader and the insistence on a different tool--which even on the very first page I was asking for more specific information about, and not getting it.

And then look--you will look in vain--for any acknowledgment of the fact that my reason for using the Gentle Leader is not just "control," but the fact that it has made my dog's world a friendlier, less scary place for her. The belief that the GL is a terrible aversive and that dogs HATE HATE HATE is so deeply grounded in ideology that apparently contrary information just can't get in.

I do have concerns about it, which is why I'd prefer a suitable harness--which now I may be able to find, I should be able to get the SureFit, at least, locally, and at least now I have some specific names and a clear description to be lookng for.

But my little dog isn't crushed and defeated by the GL, and she isn't rubbing her nose raw trying to get it off. Instead, she's walking happily near my side, with her head and ears up and her tail out, interested in the world around her, and wanting to investigate, rather than flee or attack, when we meet another dog or see something new and potentially alarming.

The hysteria and attempts to scare people out of using it because it's presumed they can't learn to use it correctly, or won't bother, is not helpful. Maybe today or this week I'll be able to find a harness for Addy--but until Mattie's post this morning, there was no possibility of that, because anti-GL hysteria wasn't helping me find anything.

That was an awful lot of effort for a volunteer to pouring into something that wasn't going to achieve its intended goal.

Lis

[Mattie]

Lis, this thread was started by dustyhelp, on the first page of this thread I had already posted the same information on how a harness works.

I will always condemn anything on a dog's head to control it, again I am repeating what I said earlier in this thread that people buy them and put them on their dogs without knowing how to use them or how they work. Unless you have a double ended lead or 2 leads, one clipped to the halti the other to a collar or harness they you are not using the halti properly. The dog should be walked on the collar/harness with the halti as a back-up for when you need extra control.

But my little dog isn't crushed and defeated by the GL, and she isn't rubbing her nose raw trying to get it off.

Nobody has suggested that you or anyone else has a dog like this, you are accusing us of hysteria when in fact it is you that is hysterical because you are taking things personally.

I object to you saying I was trying to scare people, all I do is put up the facts as I know them. Having a dog with a tracheoty and another that has had an operation on his spine I know the consequences of when things go wrong. If I didn't give the facts as I know them, I would be treating the members with contempt.

I find you last and one before posts very insulting, I ignored the first one but I am not the second. You want information, then ask in a proper way and not expect what you want from someone else's thread. Start a thread of your own when you want information.

[Lis & Addy]

Mattie, you linked to the doganswers.com site. Did you read it? Did you notice that its "case" against the GL and Halti has the same lack of information that I had already commented on?

Did you notice that he recommends prong collars and shock collars?

Did you notice that he's a trainer who is trying to scare and bludgeon people into buying his training services?

This matters because linking to that page damaged your credibility for me. He's not engaged in honest argument for what he's selling, and you thought he was worth linking to. I suspect that you DIDN'T notice these things, that you didn't look beyond the fact that he was validating your opinion on the Gentle Leader, and didn't read the rest.

But that doesn't make this weak argument a strong one. One would think, if the GL were so very dangerous, that it wouldn't be so difficult to cite specific cases and some numbers illustrating that danger. And yet no one ever does. That's interesting, don't you think?

Lis

[Leigha]

This is really none of my business at all, but I think the matter's kind of over with. Let's all "let sleeping dogs lay" and just leave it alone. Talking about someone's credibility in an open forum such as this isn't proper. If you have problems with something someone has said, say it in a private message. I've been in too many forums that people have used for negativity and it would be sad to me to see this one go that way as well.

[emmabeth]

Nope, Leigha its 'your' forum as much as anyone elses and if discussions like this make you feel uncomfortable then its likely its doing the same for other users.

This has to stop now .... or ill have to lock the thread/edit the thread (i might do that yet actually to get it back on topic).

Lis - take things to pm, especially if you notice things like links to people who may seem to be talking sense and then turn out to be advocating harsh aversives. We DO miss things, I have been caught out in the past when i failed to notice some stuff on a trainers site that wasnt as nice as he made himself out to be.

Mattie - ill take white if theres no Rose!

[Mattie]

Just one to comment on links, I like to see how not to do things as well as how to do them, Links are put up for people to read and hopefully work out for themselves what they agree with and what they don't, that isn't my job to do.

This is the last I will say on this thread, I don't give a toss what Lis thinks about me, it will be the last post of her's that I will reply to.