Update on Koa

[Liz & Koa]

I like the walking methods, and look forward to trying them, but how do you react if the dog is walking along fine with a flat buckle collar on, and he see's a cat or another animal and he freaks out?

That is my only reason for the prong. I can stop and be a tree all day long if he is pulling, but it's the reactions that get to me.

[Noobs]

I use an easywalk harness. This helps me gain control if he lunges. My dog reacts pretty badly to cats currently - he's okay now with most dogs and most people - and will go after a squirrel if I don't give him a verbal cue like "enough" or something more casual like "you can't have that" and distract him with a "watch me". He's improved a lot with regard to cats but they are still a major trigger with him. I used a prong on him for a hot minute when I first got him but he lunged after a squirrel and scared the living daylights out of me when I thought the collar had snapped his neck. So now I have the easywalk - when he lunges he gets turned back around toward me as the ring is on his chest and not behind him.

And for you I would suggest since Koa still reacts and lunges, instead of "being a tree" just about-face and remove him from the situation. I still get embarrassed when I have to do that with Murphy while he's having an "episode" but getting the trigger out of his sight is the only thing that will stop him from reacting.

I will also add that a "light tug" with a prong is still a tug on a prong so I would still like to at some point hear that you dumped it altogether. It took me a couple of times of putting my dog's prong collar in a drawer and swearing off of it before I finally threw it out and REALLY swore off of it. So I'm not going to call you a bad person for using it or whatever. I just feel like I thought I was a totally hopeless case and I've been able to turn Murphy part-way around without a prong collar.

I feel your pain, though. He is still reactive to guests when they first walk in and we have to keep him behind a baby gate for the first several minutes after anyone arrives. The one time we thought he would be ok, he ran up to a female guests who was afraid of black dogs to begin with, and jumped up and tried to reach her face. That's when we knew management wasn't going to be enough and we were going to actually have to start training him as well.

So best of luck. I hope you stick around.

[Noobs]

I want to make sure and add, though, that while my walks with Murphy are so much more relaxed than they used to be, I am still very aware of any movement ahead of us. I can spot a cat from a block away and will change our route to avoid it. I have had occasion to miss a few recently since it's so dark when we walk in the morning, but as soon as I see it, whether he's reacting or not, I back up, move away from it, whatever I have to do to remove him. When we're far enough away that he's calm and focusing on me, I'll do a few 'watch me' exercises, sometimes I have him do simple tricks like 'touch' or 'high-five' to distract him and get his mind back on me and our walk. So I do prevent him from having a need to lunge or freak out. I'll miss a cat here and there and have to deal with the reaction, but most of the time I am very tuned in to his body language, to the movements ahead of us, behind us, and on either side. It's so second-nature at this point that I could be walking without my dog and start to turn around when I see a cat ahead.

[Liz & Koa]

Thanks Noobs,

Last night and this morning we went out with just the Easy Walk harness on and it went okay. We did see a friend with 3 dogs. A lot to ask of Koa. I had him sit and liver treat, liver treat, he did react, but not for too long.

This particular neighbor is willing to practice with me, so we will work on one dog at a time.

Trust me, the less I use the prong the happier I will be. I think it gives me a sense of control, but the truth is a freak out is a freak out, so no matter what I have on him, I have to learn to just take a deep breath, relax, and walk away.

Thanks again for the support. It is nice to know I am not the only one with this problem.

Liz

[Mattie]

Hi Mattie,

I do appreciate and understand your opinion, but I think people have different breaking points. Mine was at the two year mark. I did have a spouse to consider who felt a year was long enough. Koa was a liability and we were stressed, he was stressed and no matter how long I followed the methods from this website and my vet, he would freak out when anyone came to our house. Once he got a look at them or heard them there was NO calming him down, no amount of cheese, babyfood, liver treats, would help. And, yes, I know timing is everything, but it still did no good.

Do you really think I went for 4 years not being out of my mind with this? There were many times when I wanted to give up if I had it would have been pts, this dog had been to hell and back with his previous owner who's son gave him drugs which caused brain damage.

I had a spouse as well to consider, all he could do for himself was use a spoon or fork to feed himself, he couldn't even go to the toilet on his own. I know all about stress, the stess of turning dogs round, Joe wasn't the worst, that came later, stress of trying to get my husband the right help etc. This isn't about you or your husband, it is about your dog.

Before I called this trainer, I had gotton in touch with law enforcement agencies to see if they would take Koa, but they don't want a dog with a fear aggession issue. The place I got him from would take him and re-home him, I could not do that with a good conscious (misspelled, I know). They would get him, think he was a great dog and re-home him. It would not be until he bacame attached to the home and people that he would show this behavior. Then I am sure he would be pts, with no one knowing what a good boy he is. It is my duty to see his life through. My last option was to have him pts, but that would have been sad for all involed. In the same breath there are MANY happy dogs looking for homes that I could help. It is no way to live, no matter how much we love them, when a dog dictates when you have company and when you go down a certain street, or if you stop to talk to a neighbor. It is very stressful, and I feel I went above and beyond for Koa.

Been there done that, and come through it, I had to change myself to do it because I loved my dogs enough to change myself.

I, totally, agree, there is no reason to yell, jerk, or choke a dog to get them to listen to you. I feel with Koa just the weight of the collar is enough, I do NOT "correct" him that way. Yes, Noobs, in the video the trainer does that, I DO NOT agree with her that Koa looks more relaxed with her. She had his leash for about five minutes out of the three hours she was there, and yes, she did tell me I had to be more firm with my corrections, but I feel that is up to me to decide and I did not let her dictate that it had to be that way or no way. She was not pushy at all, and again, I felt it was my last option.

I have seen dogs totally go over the top because of the way some people train, even put experienced Army trainers in hospital, these dogs had a life of hell because nobody understood what they were saying.

It has been two months. Now, someone comes to my house, I have Koa sit and wait, if he puts his ears forward and puffs his face, I say "Uh" with a little nudge in his shoulder, to get his attention, he looks at me, I tell him it's okay, and all of a sudden he lays down and totally relaxes. I tell him to stay, the person comes in and ignores him, I praise, praise, praise, for this behavior.

What is wrong with having him in another room when you have visitors, I do this with my dogs because at the moment I am physically not capable of giving them the exercise they need, I do pay for a dog walker for Dolly, she winds the other 2 up. Why force him to accept people when he is like this?

This week we have started walking with other people and other dogs, it is going well.

I am really pleased that it is going well, I know just how hard it is with a dog like this.

Fundog, my goal is to start slowly taking Koa off the Prozac is about four months. I am under the understanding that the more he does not lunge and bark the less he will do it, if that makes sense. I just need to be sure. I do still use the collar, but on a limmited basis.

Thank you all for your input, and have a good day.

Liz

The success rate on this forum for reactive dogs is incredible, these owners are being so successful because they have listened and do as asked, if things were not going well they came back and told us so we could give more ideas. Look at Noobs, Jack's Dad and many many more. We don't do this for fun, we do it for the dogs but if the owner doesn't want to listen or interact and keep us up to date with what is going in then there is no point in us spending our time typing replies.

Only you can make the decision for him, we can't, it depends on how committed you are to solving the problem, at the moment you are using aggression to solve a fear problem, as you have found out, it makes it worse.

How committed are you, up to know you haven't shown commitment but are using force. If this sounds harsh, that is fine, you have been messing about trying far too many things for him to cope with, you need to make your mind up what you want to do.

[emmabeth]

I really can only echo what Mattie has said here Liz - you have as far as I can tell, insisted on pushing Koa outside of his ability to cope, attempting to work at a pace YOU deem suitable, and fairly predictably, it isnt working.

There is NO need to use the prong collar. Bin it.

Flat collar, easywalk harness, double ended lead.

Set yourself time limits for walks rather than routes - this is setting yourself up for success, you are MUCh more likely to have a successful 10 minute walk than you are a half hour or hour walk. If you need to do more 10 minute walks a day, so be it - 4 successful, low stress non confrontational walks of 10 minutes each will do you AND Koa FAR more good than one 40minute walkl where he feels the need to react a couple of times.

IF he reacts, about turn and walk away. Do NOTHING else. No telling him anything, no remonstrating or trying to make him sit. Evade. Avoid. Get the heck out of Dodge and stay happy and confident whilst you do it.

IF you see something and you get the opportunity BEFORE he reacts to reward him, do that. Again JUST reward, dont be asking him to sit, do complex stuff, at first all you need is 'see it - take the treat'.

Do NOT seek things out to face him with just yet, not until you know the distance he requires to be able to see something and not react.

Stress levels take days to drop, not minutes. Stress is a cumulative thing - if you have a stressful day one day, make things EASIER the next day. Even if the stressful day was fairly successful, its still hard work for Koa and its still stressful.

The stress of one sort of activity will affect another - if you have guests over one day and he finds that hard to handle, do not be surprised when hes still wired and super reactive the next day. Again set him up to succeed - make it ridiculously easy.

Liz, you have tried this your way for many months now - give it a whirl and try it our way? What harm can it do, seriously?

[Noobs]

Here are a couple of threads by ladybug detailing solutions for her dog who is reactive to the doorbell and guests. There is some useful information there that you can use on Koa instead of making him sit and basicaly freak out internally while people come in.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8252
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8485

[Liz & Koa]

Good Morning,

When Koa and I walk and I see a potential problem, I do turn and go the other way, not saying a word. If we see a deccoration that sets him off, I let him go up to it, smell it, and walk away when he's ready.

I do use the Easy Harness, and head halter, but some times I am afraid he is going to hurt his neck. It just seems better for him not to be put him in these situations. There is no need fo him to deal with visitors if he doesn't want to. Although, I think he does, but he's not sure of them, so he lunges.

Thanks for the input.

[Mattie]

Hi Liz, I think you know us well enough now to know that we put Koa first, we are outspoken but as long as you keep trying then so will we.

Used properly a harness and headcollar is all you will need, these will not damage your dog's neck if used together as they should be. The harness will control Koa's body, if you keep his body close to you there isn't much he can do. What he can do if someone comes to close is swing his head, with a lead clipped to the headcollar and only used when necessary, you can stop him swinging his head to get to someone too close. Just move his away as fast as you can.

Any collar, flat, prong, martingale, shock etc. can cause problems if not used properly, Collars can cause damage to the trachea, larynx and neck bones if he starts to jump around, with a harness on he can't jump around much so even with a collar, a harness will give you more control. As he has had a prong collar on he will be very sensitive on his neck so ditch that collar and use the head collar. I hate these as well but used properly they can do a good job.

Often dogs give the impression that they want to do something when they don't, it is like us being frightened of something and trying to be brave by facing it. I have a very nervous dog, thinking back she has always been like this with men, especially big men, I always have her in another room with my other dogs when someone comes, she can't cope. She is also the thickest dog I have ever seen but that is another story.

If you are willing to work with us we are willing to work with you, you have to stay with us and no other input apart from what is on here. There is so much experience on here now with dogs like Koe for you to get ideas from. Look at Noob, Jack's Dad and Horace's mum, the progress they made because they didn't listen to others. Others also have had a lot of success and are still getting it, so can you.

Just relax and chill first, open a bottle of wine and box of chocolates and chill, build up your determination and we are here to give you a kick up the butt when you waver, we are here for you and Koe, but you have to be there for Koe as well, at the moment you are just dithering with all the different methods which isn't working

HUGS.

[Liz & Koa]

Totally on board with the wine and chocolates