It has been a while since I have posted.
I worked with Koa for two years with the Gentle Leader, Gentle Walker, and getting him to focus on me. Nothing worked, he would lunge and bark and want to eat any one who came to our home.
As a last resort our vet put Koa on Prozac, it has been two months and he is much better. Having said that, I also called a new trainer and she saved us.
I know she thinks along the lines of Cesar, but I was at my witts end. I am using a prong collar, but very sparingly. This trainer trained me on how to read Koa's body language and correct his thought rather than the action. It has worked wonderfully.
Now, again, I did not want to use the "I am the boss mentality," but more assertive has been the answer.
In the end I took a little bit of info from the three trainers I used and this website, put it all together, and lucky for Koa it worked, because I was considering the worst for him.
I don't let Koa mingle with visitors, but they can come, and not be worried about getting lunged at or barked at for long periods of time.
This is her website.
http://www.professionalpetservices.com
I highly reccomend it to any one in MA with my same problems. Laurie Wagner was great.
Update on Koa
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
You will never get me to use a prong collar on any of my dogs, I won't use a gentle leader either, I have had dogs with problems, serious problems but never resorted to any of these gadgets that cause pain to my dogs.
It took me 4 years to get Joe to come back to me thanks to his previous owners, like you I was at the end of my tether and though he would have a life on a short lead, but I got there, it took twice as long as you took but I got there without using any gadgets that cause him pain. It was pain that got him the way he was, he didn't need more.
It took me 4 years to get Joe to come back to me thanks to his previous owners, like you I was at the end of my tether and though he would have a life on a short lead, but I got there, it took twice as long as you took but I got there without using any gadgets that cause him pain. It was pain that got him the way he was, he didn't need more.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
I'm glad you're feeling more confident but I think it's against forum policy to post aversive methods. And although the front of that website says "no harsh methods", if you watch the video under the "behavior modification" link, you'll see the dog (that's you and Koa, I believe) being yanked a la Cesar Millan as "corrections".
Koa
Hi Mattie,
I do appreciate and understand your opinion, but I think people have different breaking points. Mine was at the two year mark. I did have a spouse to consider who felt a year was long enough. Koa was a liability and we were stressed, he was stressed and no matter how long I followed the methods from this website and my vet, he would freak out when anyone came to our house. Once he got a look at them or heard them there was NO calming him down, no amount of cheese, babyfood, liver treats, would help. And, yes, I know timing is everything, but it still did no good.
Before I called this trainer, I had gotton in touch with law enforcement agencies to see if they would take Koa, but they don't want a dog with a fear aggession issue. The place I got him from would take him and re-home him, I could not do that with a good conscious (misspelled, I know). They would get him, think he was a great dog and re-home him. It would not be until he bacame attached to the home and people that he would show this behavior. Then I am sure he would be pts, with no one knowing what a good boy he is. It is my duty to see his life through. My last option was to have him pts, but that would have been sad for all involed. In the same breath there are MANY happy dogs looking for homes that I could help. It is no way to live, no matter how much we love them, when a dog dictates when you have company and when you go down a certain street, or if you stop to talk to a neighbor. It is very stressful, and I feel I went above and beyond for Koa.
I, totally, agree, there is no reason to yell, jerk, or choke a dog to get them to listen to you. I feel with Koa just the weight of the collar is enough, I do NOT "correct" him that way. Yes, Noobs, in the video the trainer does that, I DO NOT agree with her that Koa looks more relaxed with her. She had his leash for about five minutes out of the three hours she was there, and yes, she did tell me I had to be more firm with my corrections, but I feel that is up to me to decide and I did not let her dictate that it had to be that way or no way. She was not pushy at all, and again, I felt it was my last option.
It has been two months. Now, someone comes to my house, I have Koa sit and wait, if he puts his ears forward and puffs his face, I say "Uh" with a little nudge in his shoulder, to get his attention, he looks at me, I tell him it's okay, and all of a sudden he lays down and totally relaxes. I tell him to stay, the person comes in and ignores him, I praise, praise, praise, for this behavior.
This week we have started walking with other people and other dogs, it is going well.
Fundog, my goal is to start slowly taking Koa off the Prozac is about four months. I am under the understanding that the more he does not lunge and bark the less he will do it, if that makes sense. I just need to be sure. I do still use the collar, but on a limmited basis.
Thank you all for your input, and have a good day.
Liz
I do appreciate and understand your opinion, but I think people have different breaking points. Mine was at the two year mark. I did have a spouse to consider who felt a year was long enough. Koa was a liability and we were stressed, he was stressed and no matter how long I followed the methods from this website and my vet, he would freak out when anyone came to our house. Once he got a look at them or heard them there was NO calming him down, no amount of cheese, babyfood, liver treats, would help. And, yes, I know timing is everything, but it still did no good.
Before I called this trainer, I had gotton in touch with law enforcement agencies to see if they would take Koa, but they don't want a dog with a fear aggession issue. The place I got him from would take him and re-home him, I could not do that with a good conscious (misspelled, I know). They would get him, think he was a great dog and re-home him. It would not be until he bacame attached to the home and people that he would show this behavior. Then I am sure he would be pts, with no one knowing what a good boy he is. It is my duty to see his life through. My last option was to have him pts, but that would have been sad for all involed. In the same breath there are MANY happy dogs looking for homes that I could help. It is no way to live, no matter how much we love them, when a dog dictates when you have company and when you go down a certain street, or if you stop to talk to a neighbor. It is very stressful, and I feel I went above and beyond for Koa.
I, totally, agree, there is no reason to yell, jerk, or choke a dog to get them to listen to you. I feel with Koa just the weight of the collar is enough, I do NOT "correct" him that way. Yes, Noobs, in the video the trainer does that, I DO NOT agree with her that Koa looks more relaxed with her. She had his leash for about five minutes out of the three hours she was there, and yes, she did tell me I had to be more firm with my corrections, but I feel that is up to me to decide and I did not let her dictate that it had to be that way or no way. She was not pushy at all, and again, I felt it was my last option.
It has been two months. Now, someone comes to my house, I have Koa sit and wait, if he puts his ears forward and puffs his face, I say "Uh" with a little nudge in his shoulder, to get his attention, he looks at me, I tell him it's okay, and all of a sudden he lays down and totally relaxes. I tell him to stay, the person comes in and ignores him, I praise, praise, praise, for this behavior.
This week we have started walking with other people and other dogs, it is going well.
Fundog, my goal is to start slowly taking Koa off the Prozac is about four months. I am under the understanding that the more he does not lunge and bark the less he will do it, if that makes sense. I just need to be sure. I do still use the collar, but on a limmited basis.
Thank you all for your input, and have a good day.
Liz
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Fundog
- Posts: 3874
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
- Location: A little gambling town in the high desert
Hi Liz-- try not to be in too big of a hurry to get Koa off the Prozac. Prozac and other Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors work by helping the brain release the seratonin (a brain chemical responsible for feelings of well-being and happiness) into the bloodstream, rather than re-uptaking it, which causes a shortage. It is this shortage of seratonin that causes behavioral problems like aggression and irrational grumpiness. If Koa's behavioral problems are being caused in part by a chemical imbalance within the brain, then taking him off of Prozac would only see a return of the problems.
I know whereof I speak here. I take Prozac for the upset caused by a lack of sunlight, since I work nights. I'm a much nicer person now, and I am resigned to the knowledge that I will be staying on Prozac for as long as I continue to work nights.
I know whereof I speak here. I take Prozac for the upset caused by a lack of sunlight, since I work nights. I'm a much nicer person now, and I am resigned to the knowledge that I will be staying on Prozac for as long as I continue to work nights.
Koa and Prozac
Hi Fundog,
Thanks for the input. I'm not in a rush, but if lower the dose little by little and he seems okay, I will do it, but if I see any return of the behavior, then back on it he goes, slowly.
The problem is, sometimes it can cause liver damage, not that I am worried about that. I would rather a happy dog for six years than a unhappy one for ten years.
Thanks for the input. I'm not in a rush, but if lower the dose little by little and he seems okay, I will do it, but if I see any return of the behavior, then back on it he goes, slowly.
The problem is, sometimes it can cause liver damage, not that I am worried about that. I would rather a happy dog for six years than a unhappy one for ten years.
Ugh..
Liz im sorry to say this but I think what you are now doing is just supressing Koas behaviour, which may result in a quieter dog for now but its like creating a time bomb, you dont know when hes going to go off!
Watching the video his body language does change from the trainer, he goes from being concerned about dealing with whatever is out there, to being more concerned and worried about what the trainer is doing (the leash pops).
I did say to you in your previous threads I think that I thought you were not being consistant enough and were pushing Koa too fast, I still think that is the case and IF youd taken things at HIS pace rather than your own the method would have worked nicely for you. I also dont think it would have taken all that long IF youd worked through it without overfacing him.
I wish you luck with Koa because I really do think you are going to need it - training this way using dominance and discomfort is very likely to create a dog who doesnt communicate things so clearly any more and is a dangerous liability!
Liz im sorry to say this but I think what you are now doing is just supressing Koas behaviour, which may result in a quieter dog for now but its like creating a time bomb, you dont know when hes going to go off!
Watching the video his body language does change from the trainer, he goes from being concerned about dealing with whatever is out there, to being more concerned and worried about what the trainer is doing (the leash pops).
I did say to you in your previous threads I think that I thought you were not being consistant enough and were pushing Koa too fast, I still think that is the case and IF youd taken things at HIS pace rather than your own the method would have worked nicely for you. I also dont think it would have taken all that long IF youd worked through it without overfacing him.
I wish you luck with Koa because I really do think you are going to need it - training this way using dominance and discomfort is very likely to create a dog who doesnt communicate things so clearly any more and is a dangerous liability!
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Paul&Muttley
I finally got FIOS and now I was able to watch the video of the dog training. I did not see anything all that much wrong with the way it was done. The principles that are important are to get the dog's attention and to project an aura of confidence that the dog will respect. The trainer advised Liz to assure the dog that she is in control of the situation and so her dog does not need to act aggressively. She was also spot on about not rewarding a dog for undesired behavior by giving treats, affection, or attention which can reward the reactivity. The direct link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge2X3DsJK-A
Perhaps I am fortunate that Muttley is so laid back and stable, although I don't know if it is his nature or if it has anything to do with how I have treated him.
For instance, over the weekend my friend and I stayed with Muttley at the KOA in Harpers Ferry, and our Kabin was right across from the playground. Kids and adults were constantly going by on foot, bicycles, and whatever, and Muttley was happy to lie on the porch or in the grass, and he accepted people petting him but he mostly preferred to be left alone.
When the FIOS guys came by yesterday morning, Muttley at first barked at them, but then he became calm and I was able to allow him loose in the house while they worked. Often he would lay on the floor watching them and he never displayed any sign of aggression, and maybe only a little bit of initial fear until he became used to them.
I do hope Koa continues to improve. Once he feels secure and comfortable I think he will no longer feel a need to take aggressive action and be protective. Much depends on the owner's state of mind. I know that I sometimes feel apprehensive when Muttley meets new people, and especially dogs, because of his history. But over the weekend he met a lot of people at the KOA and also at a shopping mall, and he also met a young white bulldog and an older Golden, with good results. I think increased socialization has been helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge2X3DsJK-A
Perhaps I am fortunate that Muttley is so laid back and stable, although I don't know if it is his nature or if it has anything to do with how I have treated him.
For instance, over the weekend my friend and I stayed with Muttley at the KOA in Harpers Ferry, and our Kabin was right across from the playground. Kids and adults were constantly going by on foot, bicycles, and whatever, and Muttley was happy to lie on the porch or in the grass, and he accepted people petting him but he mostly preferred to be left alone.
When the FIOS guys came by yesterday morning, Muttley at first barked at them, but then he became calm and I was able to allow him loose in the house while they worked. Often he would lay on the floor watching them and he never displayed any sign of aggression, and maybe only a little bit of initial fear until he became used to them.
I do hope Koa continues to improve. Once he feels secure and comfortable I think he will no longer feel a need to take aggressive action and be protective. Much depends on the owner's state of mind. I know that I sometimes feel apprehensive when Muttley meets new people, and especially dogs, because of his history. But over the weekend he met a lot of people at the KOA and also at a shopping mall, and he also met a young white bulldog and an older Golden, with good results. I think increased socialization has been helpful.
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Paul&Muttley
There may have been a bit too much collar popping, but they were really very mild, compared to what I was instructed to give to Muttley. The fact was that he was just distracted and I was trying to force him to comply with fairly optional commands to heel and loose leash walk, by using extreme corrections that actually lifted him off his feet.
What was shown in the video was just a series of little pops that were not really painful or harmful to a dog of that size. I think they were administered quickly enough to avoid having the dog get distracted by his own ideas of what he wanted to do, rather than pay attention to his handler. Once he got the idea, he was more attentive and then perhaps gentler methods may be used for additional training.
Here is a video of CM dealing with a dog exhibiting very dangerous behavior, and a very clear transition from what he terms a "dominant" state to a relaxed "calm submissive" state. We don't see if the dangerous behavior reappears, but I think it is a good video to watch to see just how much damage a large dog like Koa can do.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/s ... s/05198_00
What was shown in the video was just a series of little pops that were not really painful or harmful to a dog of that size. I think they were administered quickly enough to avoid having the dog get distracted by his own ideas of what he wanted to do, rather than pay attention to his handler. Once he got the idea, he was more attentive and then perhaps gentler methods may be used for additional training.
Here is a video of CM dealing with a dog exhibiting very dangerous behavior, and a very clear transition from what he terms a "dominant" state to a relaxed "calm submissive" state. We don't see if the dangerous behavior reappears, but I think it is a good video to watch to see just how much damage a large dog like Koa can do.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/s ... s/05198_00
Re: Update on Koa
Liz & Koa wrote:It has been a while since I have posted.
I worked with Koa for two years with the Gentle Leader, Gentle Walker, and getting him to focus on me. Nothing worked, he would lunge and bark and want to eat any one who came to our home.
As a last resort our vet put Koa on Prozac, it has been two months and he is much better. Having said that, I also called a new trainer and she saved us.
I know she thinks along the lines of Cesar, but I was at my witts end. I am using a prong collar, but very sparingly. This trainer trained me on how to read Koa's body language and correct his thought rather than the action. It has worked wonderfully.
Now, again, I did not want to use the "I am the boss mentality," but more assertive has been the answer.
In the end I took a little bit of info from the three trainers I used and this website, put it all together, and lucky for Koa it worked, because I was considering the worst for him.
I don't let Koa mingle with visitors, but they can come, and not be worried about getting lunged at or barked at for long periods of time.
This is her website.
http://www.professionalpetservices.com
I highly reccomend it to any one in MA with my same problems. Laurie Wagner was great.
Being assertive in training does not mean being aggresive or needing to use punitve measures to achieve desired results. Being assertive in a positive trianing context is establishing specific criteria that you and your dog can successfully work and achieve.
If your dog is a stong puller with lots of energy, prozac and a prong collar will not change the behavior. It will find new ways to manifest.
This biggest reason people have trouble with positive training techniques is the expectation of too much too fast. If you cannot walk your dog on leash around your house (room to room) you cannot expect your dog to walk around the block or other area of high distraction. It is an unfair expection much akin to asking a 10 year old child to do differential calculus.
When training you need to have reasonable goals and not progress until those goals are met.
The next biggest hurdle is progressing too quickly. Dog walks fine around the house does not mean dog can walk around the block. First you need to look at walking around your yard then Walking down a few houses.
The last hurdle is rewarding. You always need to reward the dog exactly wear you want the dog to walk. Using a clicker requires practice. The click comes when the dog is walking wear you want them to walk, with the treat being delivered in that same area.
As far as tools, I prefer harnesses like the easy walk harness or sensation harness for training.
Leash walking 101 training plan:
Assumptions:
Your dog understands a clicker or marker.
Your dog responds to an orienting noise (you an do something like a kissing noise, or gather his attention to look at your)
You dog is food or tug motivated.
1. Backwards walking.
The goal of this exercise is to train your dog to move towards you.
Start by walking backwards. Your dog should follow.
Click as the dog is approaching you and deliver the treat about waist level while continuing to walk backwards. If your dog collects the treat and continues past you. Turn around and walk the opposite direction and repeat the reward schedule.
Repeat this step until the dog no longer passes you and walks with his head at your waist. Add in varying levels of distraction slowly. Use high value treats with respect to level of distraction.
2. The canine waltz:
This is a new (to me) exercise design to help your dog to learn to move with you.
If you stand imagine a box area in front of you that is about your body width and about 1.5 ft out. This box is your reward zone.
With your dog beginning facing you in front, step to the side 2 steps. When your dog enters the reward zone click and deliver the treat with the hand on the side in the direction you side stepped (right hand for the right and left hand for the left). Deliever the treat to the thigh level on the same leg (right or left). Work on movements both right and left at various speeds and levels of distraction.
A toy can also be used as a reward with a tug toy being preferred.
3. Turning to Heel
This is accomplished by using both games 1 and 2. The goal is to have the dog walk in heal position. Heel position is defined as the dogs head slightly in front of you hips on either side (left side for a formal heel).
Using backwards walking, begin walking backwards. As the dog reaches you rewards and then spin yourself to be facing the direction you are walking. Spin to have the dog on the desired side. Click for the dogs head to be in the correct position. Deliver the treat where you want the dogs head.
Using the waltz is basically the same as above only you are turning 90 degrees rather than 180 degrees.
Using the waltz and the reward zone keep in mind you need to keep moving. Your dog knows the reward zone is in front of you. As you move forward he needs to move forward to keep his head in the zone.
3 Adding in Turns
Up till now all walking has pretty much been in a straight line. Now its time to add turns. Grab a chair or large object to use to walk around in a circle. The waltz game will help your dog again here to move into the reward zone.
Once your dog can walk around an empty chair start adding distractions like a bowl of food, varying levels of treats. Start with treats lower in value that what you are using to reward. Have a friend assist and sit in the chair.
Once your dog has mastered all the above exercises in and around your home, then you are ready to being walking around the block or at the park.
Training to leave distractions like the fire hydrant are different: Use your orienting noise or cue for walking and walk. The second you feel pressure release on the leash, or see your dog respond, click and treat, delivering your treat in the reward zone.
Keep training sessions shot, no more than 5 minutes on each exercise and no more tha 3 sessions per day. You will have your dog walking nicely in no time without the need for punative measures for control.
I have used the above games to great affect not only with my own dogs, but several friends dogs and had them walking well in a very short period of time (In one case less than 5 minutes and that dog was walking better on its flat buckle collar with me vs its owner using a prong).
After seeing that I wouldn't allow that person within a mile of any of my dogs, she hasn't a clue on what a relaxed dog looks like. Your dog isn't relaxed, he is very frightened, if he was relaxed his tail would be swinging from side to side as he moved, a tense tail can't do that. You can't have a relaxed body and a tense tail, it is impossible.
The way she was punishing your dog for doing nothing was a disgrace, popping the dog is punishing him. There were no clear signals to tell your dog was he was to do just punishment when he didn't do it, what sort of training is that?
A good trainer will set a dog up to succeed not punish when your dog doesn't do what you want even though he hasn't been told. Yes dogs will learn that if he does something he will be punished but he doesn't know what he should be doing.
I know I keep talking about my dogs but this morning I was very proud of them, they all came with problems, some worse than others and Greyhounds are not known for good recalls, especially ex racers. This morning I slipped up and 4 of my dogs escaped from my caravan. They had FUUUUUNNNNN, racing round playing, in and out of the cars and caravans with everyone laughing at them. One word from me and all 4 came racing back, all with smiles on their faces and pleased with themselves. Yes they were rewarded with new treats they haven't had before because if this happens again I want them to feel they are safe to come back.
GSDs are very sensitive dogs although many trainers tried to teach them using harsh methods, they become dull and uninterested in everything instead of wanting to investigate which all my dogs do. Tilly is a GSD/Grayhound, has the GSD sensitivity but isn't frightened of me, you dog was really frightened of this other person who calls herself a trainer.
She is right in not rewarding behaviour you don't want, but popping the lead isn't rewarding your dog, it is using punishment to get what you want.
He is your dog, it is up to you how you train him but if you want a friend, change the way you are training.
My husband also wanted Joe trained yesterday, he didn't get it because it was my job to protect my dog even from my husband if necessary or rehome him if I couldn't.
The way she was punishing your dog for doing nothing was a disgrace, popping the dog is punishing him. There were no clear signals to tell your dog was he was to do just punishment when he didn't do it, what sort of training is that?
A good trainer will set a dog up to succeed not punish when your dog doesn't do what you want even though he hasn't been told. Yes dogs will learn that if he does something he will be punished but he doesn't know what he should be doing.
I know I keep talking about my dogs but this morning I was very proud of them, they all came with problems, some worse than others and Greyhounds are not known for good recalls, especially ex racers. This morning I slipped up and 4 of my dogs escaped from my caravan. They had FUUUUUNNNNN, racing round playing, in and out of the cars and caravans with everyone laughing at them. One word from me and all 4 came racing back, all with smiles on their faces and pleased with themselves. Yes they were rewarded with new treats they haven't had before because if this happens again I want them to feel they are safe to come back.
GSDs are very sensitive dogs although many trainers tried to teach them using harsh methods, they become dull and uninterested in everything instead of wanting to investigate which all my dogs do. Tilly is a GSD/Grayhound, has the GSD sensitivity but isn't frightened of me, you dog was really frightened of this other person who calls herself a trainer.
She is right in not rewarding behaviour you don't want, but popping the lead isn't rewarding your dog, it is using punishment to get what you want.
He is your dog, it is up to you how you train him but if you want a friend, change the way you are training.
My husband also wanted Joe trained yesterday, he didn't get it because it was my job to protect my dog even from my husband if necessary or rehome him if I couldn't.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
Update
Sorry, I have not checked this post for a while.
Thank you all for your information. As always, very informative and I look forward to trying it all out.
I DO NOT like to use the prong collar the way that trainer instructed me to. I have been giving him a light tug when I see him zoning in on one thing, then turn and go the other way. Seems to work okay. Now he is at the max on the Prozac, and seems a little bit more at ease. This week I have been watching videos from Dr. Yin at the following website, and using his Gentle Walker. He seems much better with it this time around. When I tried it a year ago, he would just pull and lunge, now he seems to be working with it instead of fighting it, and I am rewarding him with treats an praise.
http://www.askdryin.com/index.php
I saw her on the Animal behavioral website.
http://abrionline.org/articles.php
Very interesting. Lots of info on why dogs bite and insite to it all.
Koa just turned 3 years old, and I think he is loving his new home and seems otherwise very happy, except when we have guests over.
All I can do is keep working with my little buddy.
My goal is no prong collar and a nice walk with my neighbor and her dog. We do walk with her now, but Koa will freak out when he first sees them. Then I keep him on my left and her on my right. After a few minutes he is fine, but can not go near the other dog or he will lunge.
What do you all use for the treats when you are conditioning your dogs? Something small and I can give him plenty of. I know chicken is good, but messy.
Thank you all for your information. As always, very informative and I look forward to trying it all out.
I DO NOT like to use the prong collar the way that trainer instructed me to. I have been giving him a light tug when I see him zoning in on one thing, then turn and go the other way. Seems to work okay. Now he is at the max on the Prozac, and seems a little bit more at ease. This week I have been watching videos from Dr. Yin at the following website, and using his Gentle Walker. He seems much better with it this time around. When I tried it a year ago, he would just pull and lunge, now he seems to be working with it instead of fighting it, and I am rewarding him with treats an praise.
http://www.askdryin.com/index.php
I saw her on the Animal behavioral website.
http://abrionline.org/articles.php
Very interesting. Lots of info on why dogs bite and insite to it all.
Koa just turned 3 years old, and I think he is loving his new home and seems otherwise very happy, except when we have guests over.
All I can do is keep working with my little buddy.
My goal is no prong collar and a nice walk with my neighbor and her dog. We do walk with her now, but Koa will freak out when he first sees them. Then I keep him on my left and her on my right. After a few minutes he is fine, but can not go near the other dog or he will lunge.
What do you all use for the treats when you are conditioning your dogs? Something small and I can give him plenty of. I know chicken is good, but messy.
