Biting the mailman

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Ellen
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Biting the mailman

Post by Ellen »

I have a little bichon/poodle named Molly. She is almost 3 years old, and for the most part she is very well-behaved. She is very sociable and likes to meet new people at the dog park. She loves little kids. I never thought she would bite anyone, but a few months ago she bit the mailman as he was walking away after leaving a package at the door. She bit the back of his leg, and he said he was sure it didn't break the skin, so at least I was glad of that. But I'm so afraid she'll bite someone again, so now I make her wear a muzzle when she's outside around the time the mailman or paperboy come. Now that summer is here, I hate to make her wear the muzzle because it's hard for her pant. Has anyone else had this experience, and what did you do?
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

She shouldn't be outside when the mailman comes, if you keep her in until he has gone you don't have a problem.

Everytime she reacts to the mailman she is reinforcing this behaviour, the more she does it the more she will and the worse she will get. The only way to stop it is to stop her having access to him. A muzzle won't stop her reacting to him, she will still thing she has chased a bad man away. By keeping her in she can't chase him away.

I have a box outside for my mail were my mailman is safe from my dogs, I find it much easier and less stressful than coping with dogs that want to bite him.
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Exactly that.

I once did a house-sit for people whose dog (a labrador) was a serial biter. They had been threatened that there would be no more mail or newspaper deliveries. I spoke to the postman and paper boy and said I would keep the dog in when they came if they could give me a rough idea of time.

We did that for two weeks and all was well.

As soon as I handed over the keys and went home, they let the dog out and she bit someone.

If she had been my dog I'd have put the mailbox down the path where the dog couldn't get to it, but for a two-week spell in someone else's house that obviously wasn't practical.

So there you are - two solutions :D your choice.
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Cracker
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Post by Cracker »

A third solution is possible but it depends on whether you want to do the work.

You CAN classically condition the arrival of the mailman to mean good things. I'm a dogwalker and everytime we meet a postal worker on our walks I ask them to give the dogs a treat or I have the dogs sit and feed on goodies while I speak to the postal worker.

I would work out the time the mailman comes, have her on lead where she can see him from a safe distance and feed her small pieces of chicken (something she doesn't normally get and that is high value to her). If she won't take the food, you are too close.

If you do this everyday and consistently do NOT allow her to practice the unwanted behaviour (keeping her inside when you cannot be working with her) you may end up with a dog that gets EXCITED when the mailman comes because he is a sign of good stuff, not space invasion.

Either way, the dog must not be allowed outside when the mailman arrives unless you are working. It is unfair and stressful to the dog and VERY unfair to the man who is just doing his job and does not deserve to be harrassed by a dangerous little dog.

Just for you information, it sounds like you are using a fabric or cone muzzle on your dog. They are not meant to be worn except for very short periods (at the vet or groomer etc, for MINUTES at a time). If you feel the need to muzzle her, you should get a properly fitted basket muzzle that can be panted in and the dog can drink and get treats through.
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Ellen
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Post by Ellen »

Thank you all for your replies. I've been intending to try the treats method, because it makes sense to me, but so far I haven't gotten to it. It would be difficult to keep her in for such a long time because the mailman comes anytime between 11 and 2 and the paperboy comes anytime between 2 and 4. I like her to be able to be out in this nice weather, especially when I'm out in the yard myself. I'm hard of hearing so I don't hear people come, which complicates things too. I should probably look for a basket muzzle -- they only had one kind at the pet store, and it is the cloth kind. I guess there's no easy solution.
Fundog
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Post by Fundog »

I have only one more suggestion to add: I believe the mailman turning his back on her to walk away was the trigger-- this happens a lot-- I've noticed a lot of "fear-biters" have a greater tendency to nip from behind a person, rather than face them. So in light of this, ask the mailman to back away slowly from the dog (and any other dogs on his route who tend to do this), and to only turn once he is a safe distance/reached the edge of the dog's threshold that it is willing to follow. I think the mailman will find this technique to be very helpful in dealing with all of the reactive dogs on his route.
wvvdiup1
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Biting the mailman

Post by wvvdiup1 »

There is a better way! Have your friends dress in the different types of uniforms your mailman, deliveryman, and so on, wears as close as possible; that is, have your friends "play" mailman, deliveryman, etc. Have each friend bring an empty box and ring your doorbell.

At the same time, while each of your friends play "mailman or deliveryman", whether inside or outside, you train your dog to keep its focus on you and reward your dog when you get the desired behavior you want. Keep reinforcing the desired behavior until your dog gets the hang of it.

I know I wrote this awkwardly, but the idea is still there. I've done this so many times with my dogs even though my mailman delivers my mail by car. For me, this training method helped me keep my dogs from chasing the mailman's car, or any car for that matter, which surprised me!

Good luck training your dog!

wvvdiup1
Ellen
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Post by Ellen »

I like the two newest suggestions too. With the help of my friends, I have trained Molly to stay at her place in the house when the doorbell rings and the guests enter. She sometimes needs a reminder, but then she stays there until I release her. If she's outside, I'm afraid she'll recognize them, especially since my friends are mostly older women (like me). I think she even knows how their car engines sound -- dogs are pretty sharp that way. I'll have to see if I can enlist someone else. I'm sure it would help if the mailman would back away, but I don't know if he would appreciate my suggestions. He probably feels, rightly, that people should control their dogs. I'm wondering now, too, if Molly's behavior was caused by the fact that I tried a punishment-based form of training with a kind of plastic choke collar advocated by a Don somebody (The Dogfather, "the perfect dog") I can't remember his last name. I was uncomfortable with it and went back to positive training, with treats and praise. But she never bit anybody until I started using that choke collar. This is my first dog, so I'm trying different things, but I don't think his method is right for Molly. I used to watch Cesar on TV, and now I watch Victoria, and her methods really appeal to me.
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Pawzk9
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Post by Pawzk9 »

Ellen wrote:Thank you all for your replies. I've been intending to try the treats method, because it makes sense to me, but so far I haven't gotten to it. It would be difficult to keep her in for such a long time because the mailman comes anytime between 11 and 2 and the paperboy comes anytime between 2 and 4. I like her to be able to be out in this nice weather, especially when I'm out in the yard myself. I'm hard of hearing so I don't hear people come, which complicates things too. I should probably look for a basket muzzle -- they only had one kind at the pet store, and it is the cloth kind. I guess there's no easy solution.
You may "like" for her to be out during these times, but when you have a dog who bites people, sometimes you don't get your preferences. Go out with her. Supervise carefully, work with her when the paper boy and the mailman are there, and don't give her the opportunity to bite. The thing about muzzles is they aren't 100% reliable. Put your dog out in a muzzle, and there's a chance she'll get it off and bite. Is the yard not fenced?
Sandy in OK
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Ellen
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Post by Ellen »

Yes, I have an underground electronic fence. I also have a fenced-in area in the backyard, but she doesn't like to be there because the front yard is more interesting. The fenced-in area is separate from the house, so I can't just let her out the back door. I'm not happy with that, but because of the design of my yard that was the best I could do. I use the fenced-in area mostly for agility practice.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Electric fences don't work when there is something more exciting the other side, the mailman is one of them. When a dog gets excited they don't notice the electric fence and go through it. the problem comes when they try to get back in, they can't. Also other animals can get in and attack them.

This is what Karen Peak from www.westwinddogtraining.com says about electric fences. I do have permission to crosspost from Karen's site.

ELECTRIC FENCING:

Electric fencing works by burying a wire underground that
triggers a special collar on your dog to deliver an electrical shock, sometimes in conjunction with an audible warning, before your dog reaches the hidden boundary. In theory, the dog will learn not to leave the yard and the collar can be removed. The plus side to the electric fence is you do not have a visible fence. The down sides are more.
The fence only acts on your dog. It will not prevent strays, wild animals or people from coming on your property. It offers no security. Remember, the fence works in conjunction with a shock collar: no collar, no shock. Some dogs learn to ignore the shock and will continue to leave the property without negative consequences to the dog's behavior. Others with excessively thick coats may not feel the shock (my Sheltie was at a
herding clinic and kept bumping an electrical wire for designed to keep large livestock confined. He never felt the shock though the wire was live). Some dogs may bolt through the "fence" and then refuse to return to the property for fear of being shocked. Lastly, no power means you have lost your fence. Should you loose electricity, you also loose your
fence.
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Pawzk9
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Post by Pawzk9 »

Ellen wrote:Yes, I have an underground electronic fence. I also have a fenced-in area in the backyard, but she doesn't like to be there because the front yard is more interesting. The fenced-in area is separate from the house, so I can't just let her out the back door. I'm not happy with that, but because of the design of my yard that was the best I could do. I use the fenced-in area mostly for agility practice.
One of the very real problems with "invisible" fences is that while they may keep your dog in, they don't keep anything (or anyone) out. Including government employees just trying to do their job without being bitten. Especially now that you know she may bite someone, you need to only have her out front on a long line, held by you, and carefully supervised. It's no longer just about what's most conveninent, or what you'd rather do. As to the fenced in back area, it doesn't matter that the front yard is more interesting. The back yard is safer. It's not that inconvenient to walk her to the fenced in area. It's less inconvenient than being sued or having your mail service cancelled.
Sandy in OK
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wvvdiup1
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Biting the mailman

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Another problem I see with electric fencing and also the fact that you use a shock collar is that you are neurologically damaging your dog. Get rid of the fence and shock collar and put a high fence. Check your local ordinances first.

wvvdiup1
Liz & Koa
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THe little nippper

Post by Liz & Koa »

Hi Ellen,

I agree with pawzk9. I think the electric fence is very unfair. part of knowing the boundaries for the dog, is seeing the fence. Sure there are dogs that are trained, no matter what, to not cross over a certain line, but lets face it, how many of us dog owners go that far. Hats off to those that do.

I had a similar situation with my dog Koa. But he was worse.

When I am in my front yard, I have him on a 20' leash around a tree, with a toy and I get his attention when I see his body language change to a very alert state. I go over talk to him, make sure he knows whatever it is, is okay. I will not let him near any one, they can be 5 feet away and talk to him and throw cheese, but that is as close as it gets. I just can't take the chance. He was at a puppy mill for the first 7 months of his life. No socialization with people at all, so he does not trust anyone. We are working on that, but it is a long process. I NEVER leave him in the front yard alone. If I have to go out back to get something, I unleash him and take him with me, and if I want to work without watching him constantly, I put him in the fenced back yard.

I too, have used a prong collar, but I had a much bigger problem. I would think that would not be a good idea on a dog with such a little delicate neck?

My neighbor, who Koa used to bark and lunge at the fence at, tosses string cheese over the fence, ONLY WHEN, Koa is sitting and quite, if he barks, no cheese. It has been about three weeks, now we go out, Joe is in his yard, Koa goes over and sits by the fence and stalks Joe for the cheese, it is great.

I think your best bet is the chicken idea, it works great. Just go very slowly, get it to the point where the dog is looking forward to the mailman coming.

Good luck.

Liz :)
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