Muttley's Clicker Introduction

[Paul&Muttley]

This evening I took Muttley to a session at Petco that was about "Understanding Your Dog". There were two women there, one with a young black male Lab (Uh-oh) and another with a young male Doberman wearing a pinch prong training collar. We exchanged cautious doggie greetings, and Muttley seemed to be OK, although the other dogs sometimes approached him head-on, which we allowed only for a few seconds. I think there was one instant where the black Lab made a quick snap toward Muttley, and he backed away. Of course, Muttley may have first given him the "evil eye".

When the instructor arrived, instead of giving a "talk" as I first expected, she just spent some time getting to know each of us and our dogs. She doled out treats to see how each dog took them, and Muttley was, as usual, very gentle about taking them. Then she proceeded to associate the clicker with a treat when he looked at her, and he very quickly learned that the sound of the clicker meant good things. He even seemed to fixate on the clicker, maybe thinking if he could just click it himself it might magically give him a treat!

Then, she moved on to have him touch her hand with his nose, clicked, and treated, until he seemed to "get it". He already knows "sit" as a nice default behavior, so he did that almost instantly on cue. But then she was able to get him to perform a fairly good "down" by luring him into position with a treat, and a click when he pretty much got it. He seemed still a bit concerned about the other dogs and was not fully relaxed, but he did well.

Finally, she advanced to having him give a paw, which he also knows and does fairly reliably, but he seemed to not quite "get" giving the other paw. It may have just been a little too much, too quickly, and a little beyond his attention span with the distractions of the other dogs.

The other dogs, being essentially still puppies, seemed to want to play, but I did not think it a good idea to allow very much of that. At one point, the woman with the Lab gave Muttley a treat when he came close, and the Lab seemed to exhibit some jealosy with a quick show of teeth. I could not discern Muttley's body language, and I pulled him back before it could escalate.

The Dobe in the prong collar at one point had jumped up into a chair and was looking down at Muttley when he approached. The owner thought that might not be good, describing it as a "dominant" position, so I pulled Muttley back and she had her dog go back on the floor.

Overall, I think it was a good experience. The instructor recommended their "Tricks" class, which is what they call the clicker training, and agreed that Muttley did not really need the basic class. It starts on May 1 and continues every Friday at 6:30, and I think six sessions is $99, which I think is reasonable. I plan to try working on basic use of the clicker with Muttley at home, but I am hesitant bcause I want to make sure I get the timing right and not scew it up. I think I "get it" in my mind, but actually doing it is something else.

Meanwhile, I got some new dog books from the library:
Pawprints of Katrina by Cathy Scott
The Dogs of Bedlam Farm by Jon Katz
A Member of the Family by Cesar Millan (I know, boooo)
and the "Dog Whisperer" CD, focus: Aggression (I know, double booo)

I also ordered a copy of the book:
"All Creatures Great and Small", about a country Vet in postwar England

A lot to keep me and Muttley occupied...

[Fundog]

Good for you, Paul! And a "good boy" to Muttley. It sounds like the tricks class will be a good experience for you both.

It was disconcerting to hear about the dobie with the prong collar-- maybe their presence in the clicker class is evidence of a possible enlightenment on the owner's part? Let's hope so.

I've read "All Creatures Great and Small." It's a classic, more cultural literature, rather than educational how-to. But you will enjoy it, I think. Another good classic to go along with it is Doctor Doolittle.

[Mattie]

Well done Paul and Mutley, you have both come a long way and it is showing. Don't worry too much about the timing of the clicker, that will improve the more you use it.

[Kittylove5]

What they said, good job you two.

I wonder is clicker trainng is too soon for a two month old.

[mum24dog]

I wonder is clicker trainng is too soon for a two month old.

Short answer - no it isn't. Don't underestimate a pup's ability to learn.
Pam

[Noobs]

Paul, congrats and keep it up!

Here's a game to help improve your timing. LOL

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/ ... rsion5.swf

There are others out there I'm sure but here's just one I found with a quick google search for "clicker timing".

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Paul&Muttley"]This evening I took Muttley to a session at Petco that was about "Understanding Your Dog". There were two women there, one with a young black male Lab (Uh-oh) and another with a young male Doberman wearing a pinch prong training collar. We exchanged cautious doggie greetings, and Muttley seemed to be OK, although the other dogs sometimes approached him head-on, which we allowed only for a few seconds. I think there was one instant where the black Lab made a quick snap toward Muttley, and he backed away. Of course, Muttley may have first given him the "evil eye".
\
Knowing what your dog has told you, why would you allow the lab to approach Muttley head-on and possibly snap at him?

The other dogs, being essentially still puppies, seemed to want to play, but I did not think it a good idea to allow very much of that. At one point, the woman with the Lab gave Muttley a treat when he came close, and the Lab seemed to exhibit some jealosy with a quick show of teeth. I could not discern Muttley's body language, and I pulled him back before it could escalate.

Better to not allow the interaction than to be reactive and pull your dog back.

The Dobe in the prong collar at one point had jumped up into a chair and was looking down at Muttley when he approached. The owner thought that might not be good, describing it as a "dominant" position, so I pulled Muttley back and she had her dog go back on the floor.

Did the instructor address the prong collar?

Overall, I think it was a good experience. The instructor recommended their "Tricks" class, which is what they call the clicker training, and agreed that Muttley did not really need the basic class. It starts on May 1 and continues every Friday at 6:30, and I think six sessions is $99, which I think is reasonable. I plan to try working on basic use of the clicker with Muttley at home, but I am hesitant bcause I want to make sure I get the timing right and not scew it up. I think I "get it" in my mind, but actually doing it is something else.

Well, I do hope you and Muttley learn something from the class.

Meanwhile, I got some new dog books from the library:
Pawprints of Katrina by Cathy Scott
The Dogs of Bedlam Farm by Jon Katz
A Member of the Family by Cesar Millan (I know, boooo)
and the "Dog Whisperer" CD, focus: Aggression (I know, double booo)

Big boo to CM and a double boo to Jon Katz. If you want to know what a really incompetent *** he is, read "A Good Dog" - all about how he ignores his dog's needs until the elephant in the living room is way too big to ignore and then kills poor Orson for doing what he has inadvertantly allowed the dog to learn, and then feels sorry for himself for at least a chapter. He is not a good dog trainer. He is not even a competent dog owner, and has dumped or killed practically all the dogs he has owned. The book made me cry (not in a good way) and killed any desire I might have had to read anything else that he had written.


I also ordered a copy of the book:
"All Creatures Great and Small", about a country Vet in postwar England

Herriott always makes me cry (in a good way). I've listened to tapes of his stories driving to dog events, bawling like a baby.

[Fundog]

"Well I do hope you and Muttley learn something fun from the class."

Pawzk9, this was about the only positive thing you had to say in your post. You tend to do a lot of criticizing, even bringing up comments that have already been appropriately addressed. Your approach is likely to make people feel that they are incapable of doing anything right, and even give up-- this tendency is the complete antithesis to the idea of positive reinforcement. If you had been really reading Paul's threads, you would realize that he has worked very hard with his dog, and deserves to be applauded and encouraged, as they have made a great deal of progress. Instead, all I'm reading from you is criticism.

This particular thread was a celebratory thread, not a confessional. Paul does not need to be rebuked, but rather, congratulated and encouraged. Let's remember to celebrate everyone's achievements, as well as offering suggestions for improvement.

[emmabeth]

I have to say, I agree entirely with what Fundog says - and I can be sharp with people from time to time!

[Pawzk9]

[quote="Fundog"]"Well I do hope you and Muttley learn something fun This particular thread was a celebratory thread, not a confessional. Paul does not need to be rebuked, but rather, congratulated and encouraged. Let's remember to celebrate everyone's achievements, as well as offering suggestions for improvement.

Sorry, when I see someone engaging in behavior that has led to the injury of dogs and humans in the past, I feel it needs to be mentioned. When you know your dog has problems with other dogs, and specifically with certain types of dogs, it isn't responsible to do nose-to-nose greetings with those dogs. It's not wise. Nose-to-nose often results in reactions even for dogs who don't normally have issues. And it's fortunate there wasn't another incident. When I see people continuing to repeat behavior they KNOW isn't safe, and it might endanger dogs, it makes me angry. Because I guess I'm more about the dogs than the people.

But consider me properly admonished. If I have anything to say to Paul, there are many other forums where he asks for lots of advice and then reports back how none of it works. I'll hope the rest of you can educate him here. And I really DO hope he learns some valuable things in this class (and this forum)

[Mattie]

Sorry, when I see someone engaging in behavior that has led to the injury of dogs and humans in the past, I feel it needs to be mentioned. When you know your dog has problems with other dogs, and specifically with certain types of dogs, it isn't responsible to do nose-to-nose greetings with those dogs. It's not wise. Nose-to-nose often results in reactions even for dogs who don't normally have issues. And it's fortunate there wasn't another incident. When I see people continuing to repeat behavior they KNOW isn't safe, and it might endanger dogs, it makes me angry.

There are much better ways of helping and advising people than criticising them the way you did, all that does is send people away but thankfully Paul knows us better and if you had read all his posts you would realise just how far he has come.

It is never advisable to let strange dogs greet each other nose to nose, it doesn't matter if they have problems or not, you are asking for trouble but I am sure Paul realises that he made a mistake, he doesn't need you to point it out in the nasty way you did.

Because I guess I'm more about the dogs than the people

I find this very insulting, you are new here and seem to think that everyone here is wrong and you are right, maybe if you learnt more about us and the way we do things you will realise that we ALWAYS put the dogs first. There are many members on here who will testify to that.

But consider me properly admonished. If I have anything to say to Paul, there are many other forums where he asks for lots of advice and then reports back how none of it works. I'll hope the rest of you can educate him here. And I really DO hope he learns some valuable things in this class (and this forum)

WOW you really are a nasty person, what has Paul posting on other forums got to do with us? Thank goodness there is no chance of you meeting up with my dogs, I wouldn't let you within a mile of them, with your attitude I wouldn't trust you with them.

[Dibbythedog]

Well done Paul and Muttley

Loved James herriot's books and the film too.
Cesar Milan His books should be burnt!
ali

[Pawzk9]

I find this very insulting, you are new here and seem to think that everyone here is wrong and you are right, maybe if you learnt more about us and the way we do things you will realise that we ALWAYS put the dogs first. There are many members on here who will testify to that.

My statement was intended to mean that when I see danger to a dog, I may be thinking more about that than how I phrase what I say. It's a fault I have. It in no way indicated that anyone here does NOT put the dog first.

WOW you really are a nasty person, what has Paul posting on other forums got to do with us? Thank goodness there is no chance of you meeting up with my dogs, I wouldn't let you within a mile of them, with your attitude I wouldn't trust you with them.

My goodness, "Pixie with attitude" doesn't begin to describe yours, does it? But not to worry, I've already heard from EmmaBeth (much more positively and nicely worded.) And I will refrain from commenting on Paul and Muttley in the future. Apologies to anyone who was offended by my directness.

[Paul&Muttley]

To be fair to Sandy, she is used to posting in RPDB, where she is actually one of the nicer ones, believe it or not. I have thick skin with a Teflon coating, so any nasty comments don't stick. And I remain in RPDB precisely because I can post anything I want without fear of censorship. I am by nature not a nasty person, and I usually counter direct attacks with a calm response which serves to add more information, in case my comments were misunderstood.

I think I was reasonable and responsible in my handling of the situation at Petco. I do realize that may dog may have a generalized problem with black Labs, and I made sure that their meeting started out correctly as nose to butt. When they went nose to nose, within seconds I held the leash tightly, and immediately pulled him away when I noticed the little snap. It seemed to be initiated by the other dog, but Muttley may have sent an aggressive signal that I could not detect. There was really no time for any dangerous escalation, and I made sure that there was no chance of any injury by separating Muttley from the confrontation.

I like this forum because most people do play nice and avoid confrontational and aggressive behavior with other people almost as much as they do in their dealings with dogs. But I also sense some disturbing aspects when people totally condemn dog trainers such as Cesar Millan because of some extreme and well-publicized incidents where he used excessive force on certain dogs. Yet, overall, he has done a lot of good by rescuing dogs from abusive and out-of-control situations where the alternative was likely to be euthanasia. Victoria has shown a more gentle approach, which I think should be tried first, but yet I feel there is a place for some physical confrontation with some dogs to block undesired and dangerous behavior.

Many people should take a lesson from their ways of dealing with undesired dog behavior, and apply it to their interactions with people. I agree that it is not right, and indeed counterproductive, to berate and harshly judge the actions of someone who has good intentions and possibly has made a mistake. If that person admits to an error or an unfortunate incident, it should be left at that, rather than "hounding" that person to make them feel worse than they already do. If someone is clearly abusing their dog, or a person, then they deserve censure and possibly intervention to curtail the possibly dangerous activity. But careful attempts to expand the socialization of a dog, even when there is some risk involved, should not be criticized so sharply.

Now, hopefully, we can keep this thread on a happy note. Muttley is a good dog, and he and I have come a long way in three years. We will certainly continue to have misadventures as well as really good times as we continue to interact with other people and dogs, and I feel that the risk of occasional problems outweighs the alternative of avoiding all possible situations that are not perfectly safe. Eventually we would all be living in protective bubbles and not dare open ourselves up to new experiences that make life worth living.

[emmabeth]

Annnnnd lets put this thread to bed shall we