To click or not to click, that is the question

[maximoo]

Hello All: I was wondering why Victoria sometimes uses clicker training and sometimes she doesn't. In what circumstances does one choose to use a clicker? Personally I feel clickers are unnecessary and that praise, a pat on the head, mini belly rub, toy or treat sufficiently marks the desired behavior. Clicker training began with dolphins and with them it's necessary as you cannot praise them while they are jumping in the air. They need the marker while airborne. This is clearly not the case with dogs. The clicker eventually has to be faded out/extinguished. So I really don't get why clicker training is necessary and again even Victoria doesn't use it on every dog. If it were so wonderful, why isn't it used on every dog she helps. I don't remember her using it on Stains the cupcake stealing dog, or that other dog who was taught to go to place instead of begging for sushi, and she didn't use it on Mr. Black. I think clicker training for dogs is just a fad. Opposing opinions backed with logical proof will be appreciated.

[Mattie]

It depends on what you are teaching the dog, with Joe who had been beaten by his previous owner for (not) coming back he was terrified to come back to me. The clicker meant it was safe to approach me no matter how long he had run off for. To me seeing him gain confidence because of the clicker it was worth it even if I never use it again.

A clicker is just a tool to be used when it will give the best result, same as all the other gadgets, halties, harnesses, collars, leads etc.

[sko68]

With my experience the clicker helped me more than just treats. My 8 month old Chihuahau, he didnt like coming to us in the beginning unless he wanted attention, so it was difficult at time to train him. Adding the clicker helped a lot to capture his attention in the beginning than worked on click and treat. After a while with the click and treat I would add word to get his attention and now I do not have to use it unless I am working on something new so he understands that Im looking for a new behavior.

Talking about a new behavior I will start another thread unless I can find another thread that will help me.

[Maxy24]

I think for certain things, like sit, down etc. simply giving the treat (I do not consider praise or a pat/belly rub even a decent reward for a new command) immediately is perhaps easier than clicking and treating. But the clicker allows for the dog to know the exact moment he did the right thing. For skittish dogs who might be taking a single step towards the bikes that cause them fear, or to the barking dog who stops barking for a split second to lick his lips or to the dog aggressive dog who breaks his stare with the other dog for one instant and looks at you, that click is SO important. Without it by the time you delivered the treat to the dog the thing you are rewarding him for is over.

I also think for anything that is taught in little steps (say learning to hold an object) benefits from clicker training. If you want to start clicking for a dog sniffing the object you can easily achieve that in any way but once you get to moving on to actually biting the object you are going to be trying to mark specific bites on the object. You will not just give a treat every time the dog bites the toy but when it's time you would offer the object and let the dog bite over and over until he bites a little harder or long and it's much easier to simply watch and click when that happens than to try and give the treat as soon as that harder bite in a series of bite occurs (you might not deliver the treat until he bites again after the good bite or you might accidentally be rewarding the dog for letting go etc.).

Also say you are training a dog to heel, people have a tendency to stop moving to give the treat which is really not the best thing, you are more rewarding the dog for stopping at the same time as you than you are for the dog walking with you. If you are able to click while still walking and then stop to treat you are telling the dog that walking earned a treat, not stopping.

Also training anything at a distance is easier. You can inform him he earned a reward even if it will take you a few seconds to walk over and give it to him. It makes capturing good behavior (he doesn't growl this time when the new puppy goes up and sniffs him even though that's what he usually does) much easier and can make teaching things like yawning, bowing (stretching), shaking and other spontaneous behaviors easy to capture in the course of the day.

[Mattie]

Also say you are training a dog to heel, people have a tendency to stop moving to give the treat which is really not the best thing, you are more rewarding the dog for stopping at the same time as you than you are for the dog walking with you.

Which is why I don't use treats for this but wait until Ihave finished.

[Cracker]

I use a clicker for new behaviours, for shaping behaviours and for games like " 101 Things to do with a box".

Many of my clients don't "get " the idea behind the clicker so we work with a marker word instead, but I still find the dog learns faster with a clicker and that we, the humans are more efficient marking with a clicker than we are with a verbal marker.

The reflex involved in sounding the clicker has a quicker path in our brains than with words..the clicker sound is also more consistent and precise...there have been studies made that using a clicker or a penlight flash (something that never changes in sound, intensity or duration) makes a more direct link to the amygdala in the dogs brain (where pain, pleasure, fear etc are originating) and therefore making a faster and more permanent connotation to "you've done the right thing! and a reward is coming!"

So a clicker, as a tool, can be a more effective and rewarding marker to an animal being trained. It's used for humans too...google TagTeach and have a look at what they are doing with athletes and with developmentally challenged people!

A clicker is not "necessary" for a dog to learn but it can be an amazing tool once you get the hang of it and I know the dogs I do use the clicker with (Including my Cracker) LOVE to get down to learning new stuff when they see the clicker come out!

If only more people would be willing to give learning the timing and concepts behind the clicker more effort, I think they'd be amazed at the difference in how quickly their dog learns and also how fascinating it is during shaping exercises to see the little wheels turning in their brains.

I don't think of clicker training as a fad at all, I think it may be a big part of many a positive trainer's toolbox for a long time....marker/clicker training is an offshoot of extensive learning theory study and has moved dog training forward from the old style of correction based training. It is firmly based in science.

[mum24dog]

I think clicker training for dogs is just a fad.

Some fad - it's been around for over 50 years, although admittedly only really started to take off with the general public in the last 20.
Don't knock it until you've tried it. I have yet to find anything that is as flexible as a training tool than a clicker.

Pam

[Dibbythedog]

Personally I feel clickers are unnecessary and that praise, a pat on the head, mini belly rub, toy or treat sufficiently marks the desired behavior.

Using a clicker depends on the dog and the circumstances.
A Clicker can be a wonderful tool. Please correct me if I am wrong but the above are rewards, they are not markers. The clicker marks the exact behaviour and you then reward with a treat or a pat. It might be that you only have a couple of seconds to mark the behaviour you want e.g training a dog to look away from a cat. He might just glance away and you have the opportunity to mark and reward that . A pat on the head as a marker would take too long and be too late.

This link explains more about clicker training and also there is a sticky thread at the top of this section.
http://www.clickertraining.com/
Ali

[maximoo]

I know clickers have been around a long time, but I meant I think it's a fad in dog training.
Perhaps it has been introduced in dog training 20 yrs ago, however if it were so great why has it only become popular in the past 5 yrs or so.

I don't mean to sound like I am knocking clicker training, but I have yet to see the necessity. I have seen so called clicker trained dogs need to go to command obedience training as the dogs were not well behaved. A dog should do for you as you ask b/c it pleases you and he loves you. Many people click at the wrong time, lose/misplace it, etc. How about an enthusuastic "YES" when dog does something to please you. I do think very small training treats enhance the training process, to be eventually phased out as dog masters the command. then given randomly as the owners see fit.
Mattie, You are right not to stop and give treat when teaching to heel. However when you stop the dog should be taught automatic sit, & rewarded. (eventually phased out of course) In the beginning have the dog walk in a heel and every 10 steps or so the dog is commanded to sit. Praise & reward. Do it over & over in 10-15 mt sessions. The dog will have good manners.
Also, I believe hand signals should accompany commands. Always make sure the dog knows the voice command and hand signal independently.

[Maxy24]

I don't think you understand what the clicker does. It is not a reward, it does not replace commands. It tells the dog at exactly what moment he did the right thing, you click the exact moment the dog makes the right move even if your dog is not doing the right thing when you give the treat you will have told the dog what he did right by clicking when he WAS doing the right thing.

The clicker is dropped out when the dog learns the command, just as you lessen the amount of food rewards given after a dog learns a command. Clicking is ONLY for teaching, it helps the dog learn what is being asked of him, once he understands what he needs to do to get a reward you can stop clicking, you don't need to tell him what to do anymore, he gets it.

Commands are still taught, you say the command and when the dog does it you click. Same with hand signals if you want.

Clicker training also allows you to capture spontaneous behavior and allows for a delay between click and reward which allows you to train without ever using a food lure (if you want, I still use one on certain things) because you can simply wait for the behavior, or a step towards the full behavior to click and you can take the time to step over to the counter or dig ni your pocket to grab the treat without worrying about the dog loosing the association between action and reward.

A dog should do for you as you ask b/c it pleases you and he loves you

No offense but that is ridiculous. Dogs do not work to put a smile on someone's face, dogs do what is best for them. Often times you can teach a dog that a happy you means good things for them but in the end they are still trying to do what means good things for them, they could care less about making you proud in fact I doubt they know when you are proud or what proud is. A dog either works for a reward or to avoid a punishment. VERY few dogs will reliably work for a verbal reward or for petting, they usually get that frequently and it's not nearly as good as meeting another dog, running down the street, eating that food over there, stealing that sock, sniffing that poop etc. Again, dogs do what is best, eating things is better than a stroke from you. So unless you physically punish your dog (or have a very sensitive dog and use verbal punishment) I think toys or food need to be used to teach (but can be phased out so you only occasionally give them).

How about an enthusuastic "YES" when dog does something to please you

This is clicker training without a clicker. If you say yes at the exact moment a dog does the thing you want and you associate this word with a reward you are clicker training. The reason a clicker is better than a word is that words are used all the time and are inconsistent. You can say yes with a billion different fluctuations in your voice. You probably say yes to your dog often without thinking about it. Every time you say yes without rewarding your dog the word means less and less and eventually they stop paying attention to it, it is a word that means very little to them because it is said all the time with no effect on them.

A clicker is a sound that will always be followed by a reward so it has a strong meaning. It is something they never hear otherwise. Is is also extremely consistent, the click always sounds the same so there is no question of this sounding click being different from this sounding click.

here check out some kikopup videos, they are very good and she uses all clicker training, some are ho to videos and some are just her showing off what her dogs can do or what she is in the process of teaching them:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?blend=1&ob=4

This video shows how you can wait for a dog to offer a behavior (looking away and leaving food) and be able to click the second he does that. She can also mark the second he looks into her eyes. She makes the ocaasional timing mistake but it is not detremantal as it could be if you used punishment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNAOe1dj ... DC&index=2

[Mattie]

Mattie, You are right not to stop and give treat when teaching to heel. However when you stop the dog should be taught automatic sit, & rewarded. (eventually phased out of course) In the beginning have the dog walk in a heel and every 10 steps or so the dog is commanded to sit. Praise & reward. Do it over & over in 10-15 mt sessions. The dog will have good manners.
Also, I believe hand signals should accompany commands. Always make sure the dog knows the voice command and hand signal independently.

I know I am right not to stop and give treats when teaching my dogs to WALK ON A LOOSE LEAD, I don't do walking to heal, I don't compete so don't need it, I do need walking on a loose lead no matter how long or short the lead is. On a short lead my dogs are virtually walking to heal.

How do you know my dogs don't sit when I stop, I haven't said if they do or not, you are just assuming that my dogs don't. I have a dog that can't sit, he never has in the 5.5 years I have had him, he is a Greyhound and has had an operation on his spine. It is very dangerous to get a dog to sit that has skeleton problems. You don't know if my dogs have skeleton You don't know what my dogs are trained to do or how well mannered my dogs are. If I want advice I will ask for it off people like Emmabeth, Nettle, Fundog but not you, you assume far too much and that is dangerous with dog training. Never tell anyone to get their dogs to do something without finding out if the dog has something wrong with them.

My dogs are very lively, too lively for many people, but they are well trained, I ask I get, not because they want to do it because they love me but because they have never been put in a position where they didn't when being trained. There were always set up to succeed, encouraged to do what I wanted and well rewarded for doing it.

My dogs are all well mannered, many have come with terrible behaviour problems which none have now apart from one having brain damage. Before you give people advice, find out what they know and if their dogs have any health or behaviour problems, these need to be taken into account when you give advice, not to do so can lead to the dog suffering.

[emmabeth]

Yep - I dont want my dogs automatically sitting when I stop moving either - two are sighthounds who find the sitting position uncomfortable at best (a great many larger sighthounds do, their backs and pelvis and hind legs are not arranged for sitting, they are designed for running) - forcing a frequent sit out of these dogs long term could easily cause damage.

I also show several of my dogs and the LAST thing I want when going round the ring is a dog who sits when im standing still - i want my dog standing unless I know the judge isnt looking in which case i will tell the dog to sit, or lie down or simply 'relax' rather than hold itself in a show stack.

My dogs work for me because I make it rewarding for them. They please me merely by existing and being their own cute fluffy/lanky/hairy selves - I please them because I am a constantly unpredictable source of treats, games and fun. Anything ELSE... such as love, the fact i pay the bills and buy the food and can work the freezer door - does not feature in their minds. They respect me because I have earned their respect (by being a source of treats, fun, guidance etc).

Why should they work for nothing more than love - do YOU work just for love? I bet even if you love your job, you wouldnt go if you just got 'love' instead of a paycheck!

[mum24dog]

Perhaps it has been introduced in dog training 20 yrs ago, however if it were so great why has it only become popular in the past 5 yrs or so.

I would dispute 5 years. I've been clicker training for over 10 and I was far from being in the vanguard of those who use it. In addition it came to the UK later than the US so we were lagging from the atart..
It has become gradually more popular as more people appreciate the benefits though.
The reason it has not happened overnight is that most people find it well nigh impossible to ditch the correction and punishment methods they have had ingrained in them where "positive methods" mean giving your dog a treat after you have punished it for not doing something you haven't taught it to do properly in the first place.
Clicker training demands a 180 degree mental turn from those methods and many people aren't open minded enough to be able to do it.
It isn't the only way to train a dog. All methods work up to a point, even out and out punishment, but those of us who do use it find it has distinct advantages and encourages empathy with the dog.

Pam

[Cracker]

If you saw clicker trained dogs that were badly behaved that simply means the trainer didn't train the behaviours properly or didn't focus on anything but tricks. That is the fault of the trainer, not the dog nor the tool being used.

I think the biggest difficulty in having people use a clicker is a lack of knowledge of learning theory and lack of teaching the trainer/owner of the dog the proper timing and skills necessary. Once the human has the skills and understanding (which is really not that difficult to acquire) and sees the difference in speed of learning and problem solving on the part of the dog it becomes a fun and challenging form of training for both!

Common misconceptions about the clicker include:

It's only used for "trick" training. I know of several trainers who do behaviour modification with DA, reactive and fearful dogs using a clicker with great success. Many service dog associations use clicker training for teaching dogs assistance tasks.

You always have to have the clicker and rewards available. The clicker is to be used for shaping new behaviours or capturing behaviours you want to put on cue. You don't have to carry the dang thing everywhere.

The dog becomes too food focused. In learning new behaviours or difficult behaviours food is a prime motivator but over time and with certain dogs you can click and reward with freedom, toy play, a tug or anything else the dog enjoys. Most drug sniffing dogs are rewarded with a ball to play or chew on.

I tried a lot of different methods trying to get Cracker to walk loose leash...with little or no success...I found a clicker mentor and within a relatively short period of time I have a dog that LOVES to walk close to me and checks in regularly as to where we are going next. Not a proper heel, though I have taught it to her, but a nice, pleasant loose leash.

I am still learning and that is part of the fun and challenge for me..coming up with things I want Cracker to learn and then figuring out the best way to do so...it is a healthy challenge for her and for me.

All things are a fad at one point or another...but like Malcolm Gladwell says in The Tipping Point, (and I'm paraphrasing here)...there comes a point where the numbers, the environment and the success of the "fad" tips over to being a lasting phenomena...changing perceptions.
I think clicker training is approaching the tipping point and is becoming more and more accepted as an efficient, positive and clearly effective form of training.

And my dog works for me because she loves WORKING and the rewards inherent in that, not because she loves me and wants to please ME. Of course, she does love me, but dogs are "innocently selfish" as a good friend likes to say. They do what works..it is our job to find a way to make things work for THEM that also works for us!

[mum24dog]

I am still learning and that is part of the fun and challenge for me..coming up with things I want Cracker to learn and then figuring out the best way to do so...it is a healthy challenge for her and for me.

I think that's what I like best about it.
I feel that traditional methods are inherently lazy and don't require a great deal of thought.
Clicker training encourages the trainer to be observant and creative and skills like that acquired through dog training can spill over into other areas of life.

Pam