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keslo66
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hi

Post by keslo66 »

hi all.

ive got 2 border collie puppies. one is 6months one is 7months.

ive got a bit of a problem with the younger of the 2 rebel.

he is so rebellious (hense his name rebel lol)

he jumps up alot. espicially when excited. its awful when people visit.

he jumps on the furniture (no matter how many times he is told not to)

if he is left in the kitchen and we have sasha out, he whines alot. (also if he is in there and people arrive)


im pregnant with my first baby. and i can see his jealusy to become a problem.

so any tips? ive got a shake bottle which i sometimes use.

thanks in advance :)
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Hiya

Ok, how long do you have before baby arrives?

This is going to sound awfully harsh, but i really REALLY think you may need to rehome one of these pups.

There is an extremely good reason why no reputable rescue centre or breeder would sell someone two pups of the same breed and similar age at the same time. This is, that they are FAR more work than just one pup.

Collies are extremely smart dogs, however if you dont have near constant input into them, they will turn that intelligence elsewhere and go 'self employed'.


If you have lots of time (and i do mean at MINIMUM 3 months), if you can put in a LOT of work (several hours a day above and beyond the normal amount of time you spend with the dogs, and that needs to continue AFTER your baby is born, then go ahead and try to sort this out and keep both dogs.

If you really honestly cant put in that work then you have to seriously consider rehoming the difficult one.

Now, onto what you CAN do

Firstly, take the rattle bottle, empty it and throw it in the bin. You dont need it, it wont solve things, it may WELL make them worse.

Jumping up:

Dogs jump to greet, they jump to get near your face as thats an instinctive way to greet, face licking.
Dogs have an instinctive, hardwired NEED to greet you, this isnt something he does to piss you off, he does it because he NEEDS to do something.

That is the key here, you must a/ teach him that jumping is NOT rewarded and b/ Replace the jumping with something that IS rewarded.

For this to work, EVERYONE entering your house must do this. Otherwise, he will continue to jump at guests even if he learns not to with you.

If you think a guest wont comply with instructions, put him on a lead or out of the room, or dont have that guest over.

Now, he needs a behaviour he knows well, if he doesnt have any, pick one and teach it. Id go with sit but whatever is easiest.

Reward him well for sitting in the hall by the door, get other people to do this too.

When he always sits the second you say sit, you are good to move on.

Walk into your house, he comes running to greet you boing boing boing..... turn around. Fold your arms. Ignore him, give him NO eye contact, NO vocal response, nothing. If he moves in front of you, turn around again, keep your back to him for a few seconds, no reaction to his behaviour whatsoever.

When he has a seconds pause and goes 'whats going on here'.... ask him to sit and when he does IMMEDIATELY reward him with treats and praise.

If he jumps up out of his sit, again go back to ignoring completely.

If EVERYONE does this, if he is NEVER allowed to jump on people, he will stop jumping on people and if you are really good, his eventual response to people coming into the house wil be to sit and wait for his praise - he MUST get this praise. Its extremely common for dogs to not recieve praise once they behave nicely. (ditto children, screaming tantrummers get rewarded by attention, nice quiet ones get nothing)

Furniture:

Again, you are asking him NOT to do something, but what do you want him to do instead.

Dogs are totally RUBBISH at understanding 'dont do that', because they need to do something, if they cant do 'that' what can they do?

So find a behaviour to replace bouncing off the sofa, pick a behaviour he knows or teach him one, and reward it. Prevent his access to the sofa with minimal attention.

Personally i dont mind my dogs on the furniture and since they have access to it when im out, i really CANT stop them getting on it always. If this is the case in your house, id suggest investing in throws and allowing him access IF you grant permission.

That way you arent battling with him rewarding himself with the behaviour when you are out, then having to re learn not to do it when you are home.

Dogs can very easily learn that they must only get on the sofa when you ask, and they must get off when you ask.

Failing that and if he doesnt have acess to the sofa when you are out, put his bed in the room, or a mat or rug, and reward him for sitting or lying on there instead of getting on the sofa.

As to whining, hes not jealous.

Hes bored, he knows theres fun elsewhere to be had and hes not currently getting any, so he whines. If you reward this whine by even just shouting at him to shuttup, he will whine more. ditto if you go to him.

If he spends a lot of time shut away, he will probably be bored and whine more, so make the time he spends in there minimal, and reward him well for being alone in the kitchen.

That can be achieved by reserving special treats for ONLY when hes in alone. These can be highly prized toys that are fun without a human to help, or food reward toys such as Kongs, large raw meaty bones, buster cubes etc.

Long term, you need to spend a LOT of time training both these puppies, and im afraid as they hit the teenage stage in a few months time its likely to get worse before it gets better.

As to what happens when the baby comes along, that very much depends on you and your attitude.

If you act like the baby is the most precious thing in the world (which of course it is to you) he will WANT to know what is so so secret and fun. He will be a pain and jump at the baby and try to get to it and even think its a toy and nip.

If you prepare him for the baby, get cd recordings of baby noises, make sure he gets to have a good sniff of baby clothes or blankets BEFORE you get home with the baby. If you make out that the baby is really, no big deal, here sniff a foot, lick it if you must, its ok its just a pink thing we got that we are keeping...... then the chances are, he wont be a pain at all.

For that to continue though, you absollutely cannot ignore the dog once the baby arrives, they still need walks no matter how tired you are. They wont like high pitched screaming, they will find stinky nappys delightful to shred around the house.....

Pick a routine when the baby arrives and stick to it, involve the dogs as much as possible making sure they have an escape route when it all gets too much.

This becomes more important when the baby can crawl, and collies especially (but all dogs with small babies of any species), can nip to herd or defend themselves.

If you understand your dogs behaviour and body language you can keep everyone safe.
Dont forget, dogs dont understan that human babies dont speak dog language. Babies crawling on dogs will be treated just like puppies would, and that is generally a loud bark and an air snap, followed by a real nip if the baby persists. DONT put your dogs in this position, its unfair to everyone concerned.
keslo66
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Post by keslo66 »

This is going to sound awfully harsh, but i really REALLY think you may need to rehome one of these pups
ive already been advised this. hense why im getting some advice. i want to keep them both. the baby is due in july. so still a fair amount of time for training. and i can devote the 3hrs or however many it will take for there training. (24hrs a day if needed. i really want this sorted out.) this is not a problem.

people have children and dogs together with no problem. and im not willing to part with a member of the family without giving him a fair chance first. he was rehomed to us initially because the lady discovered she was again pregnant. and id hate for him to have to go to Another home for this reason.

as he was around a toddler for a little while at 9weeks of age, will he remember how to act around them? im thinking this has to have some good footings for him.

Sasha my other dog was socialised very well as a pup with children being around.

ive been told a number of times to 'get rid' and i think this is unfair without giving him the chance to be a good dog.



thanks for the constructive advice, i will put this into practice.
This is, that they are FAR more work than just one pup.
i was aware of this when taking on rebel. and i truely believe he can be trained well. he just needs some work.
If he spends a lot of time shut away, he will probably be bored and whine more, so make the time he spends in there minimal, and reward him well for being alone in the kitchen
he isnt shut away for long usually. i dont work atm you see, so most the time im here, to train them, play with them, walk them ect. its usually when im training sasha seperately he gets whiney, as he of course wants the treats too lol.


For that to continue though, you absollutely cannot ignore the dog once the baby arrives, they still need walks no matter how tired you are. They wont like high pitched screaming, they will find stinky nappys delightful to shred around the house.....
:lol: i found the last bit of that funny :lol: its something i could really see rebel doing lol.

im already in the process of getting some crying cds ect. as ive heard this is a good idea. and you cant rightly expect a dog to automatically adjust to this new loud thing.
If you make out that the baby is really, no big deal, here sniff a foot, lick it if you must, its ok its just a pink thing we got that we are keeping...... then the chances are, he wont be a pain at all.
so im guessing you mean, if im very relaxed about it, not pannicy when they come near the baby, they are more likely not to see him/her as a problem. thats very useful to know. thanks :)


thanks again for the advice. any more, keep it coming :D
keslo66
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Post by keslo66 »

dont worry. ive been given some very good advice on another board which will be more effective and is more constructive.
The jumping up is fairly easy to stop. Everytime he jumps at you - turn your back.
When he´s down praise him. Be persistant and tell everyone he meets to do that same. You´ll have that fixed in less than a week

Wthout knowing for sure (thats why I ask) it seems to me that your problem might be his rather high energy level?
If thats the case, make sure to stimulate him with tasks that makes him tired in the head. Not the feet - you cant do that anyway so dont even try

Tasks like that can be tracking, hiding stuff like treats or toy for him to find, a Buster Cube when feeding, learning his toys by name so he can bring them to you when you ask - it could be red teddy or blue ball etc.

Let him enjoy the walks to the park that you do. Combine them with training and free time. Every dog needs to explore places by sniffing and him having some off lead time in the park will do him good.

You still train him there though. By doing recalls that doesnt always leads to him being put back on the lead but will just as often end up with him getting treats and praise for comming to you and then h can run off to play again

Also some heal work - on/off lead - and again, small sessions in 5-10 minutes.
Then he gets off again. Teach him to stay - first at a short distance - later further away.

All these (small) things will make him consentrate. He´ll have to think (which he´ll love) - it´ll make him tired so when you get home you´ll see a happy tired dog napping - which is what we want indoors

To do these things doesnt take long. Instead of walking and doing nothing but that for an hour - do the above - and see the difference. It will be huge

Also its important to be persistent and calm round him. Dont get yourself worked up about his behavior. He´s not trying to irritate you or punish you. He is a young boy with a lot of energy - use it well.

Keep a journal and watch how you both improves. My guess is that in less than a week you´ll see a difference - in both of you

If you want to, do a log on here and let us follow your training and schedule.
We´ll do what we can to help you. As long as you know that its hard work - but deff possible if you want to
if you want to check out the forum i can pm you the link. (as im sure posting on a forum for another is against rules.)

there very helpful there, should have gone there straight away i think :D
bangs head on wall for thinking of trying somewhere else.

you may like to take some of whats written and digest it, in the event of someone else posting with a similar problem.

i will again thank you for the advice i was given.
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Hiya

I can totally understand you not wanting to give up either dog - I wouldnt either.

Do understand though, and I hate to bang on about this but I must -

There is a HUGE difference between 'getting rid' of a dog and responsibly rehoming a dog for the dogs benefit.

Im sure you will put in the work, but there are those who wouldnt, and whilst rehoming a boingy collie youngster is hard, rehoming one who has nipped a baby is nigh on impossible!

So bear in mind, if it comes to it, its not 'giving up' or 'getting rid' for an easy life - if it has to happen its for HIS good as well as yours and the babies.

Anyway.

No i wouldnt have thought hed remember the toddler - tbh if he DOES hed probably remember it as some funny two legged puppy, which is cute but not wholly helpful.

Keep up the socialisation with BOTH dogs around all manner of children - bribe people with children if needs be! Your dogs need to know that children are nice, children will not hurt them, but that children are NOT extremely exciting. Thats a tough challenge, you need to find kids who are not wound up by dogs, kids that find the idea of dogs boring.

Allow dogs to greet children nice (work on that jumping up from Rebel!), reward them for being calm around children.
Practice training, recalls, sits, downs, waits, retrieves around children who will ignore them. (get friendly with LOTS of parents!).

Both your dogs are STILL puppies and to be honest, will remain so until aged 2 years or more, so dont fall into the trap of assuming that as they look much less puppylike, they will think less puppylike, they wont!

So -

They both need to be happy being left alone from time to time - personally id invest in a big crate they can both share or be in alone. This will be SO useful when you have a crawling baby and cant wrangle dogs and baby together!

Teach them that going IN the crate = kong full of fooooooooods (delicious foods only please, cheese spread, marmite, frozen gravy, peanut butter - none of your dry kibble nono.)
You may need to start this off just a few minutes at a time, gradually getting them to understand that 'alone in crate == MMM YUMMY'.


When you are doing individual training (and id suggest 10 minutes each at least three times a day, more if they really love it, and they should), can you try to take the one being trained WELL out of earshot of the other.

I think wed ALL whine if we knew our mate was getting goodies and we werent!


I talked to my friend about the baby aspect, she has four kids and three dogs, the youngest is just a few months old (kid, not dog)....

Her dogs are very well socialised to kids, so that part of her job is already done. When the New Baby came along, she got the usual rubbish off health visitors ie 'of course you'll get rid of these dogs won't you' (she said NO!)....

Basically, whilst dogs licking a babies face is to be avoided, the message is this.

Babies do NOT spontaneously explode, burst into flames or melt and vanish if a dog licks them.

If the dog licks a babies face, quick wipe with a baby wipe. Dont panic.


Dogs pick up on our emotions really fast, sometimes faster than we do ourselves!

If you are all 'omg omg baby woo, so precious, must'nt break it, cant allow filth near it, so exciting must hide it and squeal at filthy dogs'....

Your dogs will be absolutely BESIDE themselves trying to see what this amazing thing is. Its probably a really delicious treat or a toy that they MUSTNT have - and they WILL want.

If you are all casual, come in having pre prepared dogs to you carrying a bundle ofpink squeaky joy (use a doll), if theyve smelt baby clothes etc and heard baby noises before, and you act like 'oh hey yeah, we found this and we figured its quite nice so we'll keep it, yeah hey, have a sniff it smells quite nice doesnt it', then dogs will be all 'oh, ok. if you insist.'.

If you ALSO make a point of rewarding them for lying in their beds instead of pestering when you are busy, get them used to doing training sessions with you sat on the sofa with the pretend baby, get them used to walking to heel alongside a pushchair or pram, you should be able to manage them all.

Hth

Em
keslo66
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Post by keslo66 »

hi.

my dogs are already crate trained. they have a 'extra large' size one each.

they settle really well in them. and rebel only gets restless if a. you come home and he wants to say hello/pee, b. he wakes in the morning needing the toilet.

they even go to bed if directed towards there bed and you say 'bed'



i dont mind if they lick the baby. as you say, a baby wipe and all is fine. id prefer they lick than pounce lol.

i didnt think a health visitor would be so rude as to suggest getting rid of a pet. guess ive got that to look forward to.


There is a HUGE difference between 'getting rid' of a dog and responsibly rehoming a dog for the dogs benefit
oh yes im aware of that. the dogs wont be in a position as to where they will be able to nip the child. this is why i want to train them now. i wouldnt put them or the baby in that position

the advice on the baby is helpful. thanks
keslo66
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Post by keslo66 »

forgot to say, ive already got a pram which im training them to walk next to.

i thought it to be an invaluable thing to teach
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Yeah drop me a pm please.

Thats basically the same as ive said, worded differently.

Lots and LOTS of people are going to assume you will rehome the difficult dog if not both so id start preparing a range of responses for that now - i hear it over and over and over, and yes, doctors and health visitors can be EXTREMELY rude about pets and also jump to the conclusion that any health problem is directly caused by the pet.

Em
KathyM
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Post by KathyM »

keslo66 wrote:dont worry. ive been given some very good advice on another board which will be more effective and is more constructive.

......

if you want to check out the forum i can pm you the link. (as im sure posting on a forum for another is against rules.)

there very helpful there, should have gone there straight away i think :D
bangs head on wall for thinking of trying somewhere else.

you may like to take some of whats written and digest it, in the event of someone else posting with a similar problem.

i will again thank you for the advice i was given.

Don't mean to be rude, but have you actually read this back and read how snotty you sound? Emmabeth is here giving you sound advice and you're being very ungrateful considering. It's not a 2 minute stock response you got off her either (and for the record I completely agree with her advice), so I really don't understand the need for talking down to someone who knows far more about dog training than you could aspire to at this point.

Personally I would maybe read through your posts before clicking "send" in future. :shock:
Josie
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Post by Josie »

Firstly, congratulations on your pregnancy. I have to say it's so refreshing to read a post from someone who's willing to put the work in! At the risk of sounding patronising, well done! If even half my clients were as committed as you I'd be a happy woman :lol:

You've had really good advice so far, seems like the same advice just differently worded. Em's not known for her diplomacy but she's a great dog trainer! :lol:

Babies and dogs can work really well, children are often more willing to play with dogs and give them attention than adults, it can be a match made in heaven. It can also go horribly wrong, but with a little common sense and a bit of effort (you seem blessed in both departments!) you can prevent the problems.

Getting the CD's is a brilliant idea, as is getting as much baby stuff now as you can so your dogs learn to get used to the sights and smells of babies. Also, getting them used to entertaining themselves (activity toys are great for this, as are chews if you're short of time) will be well worth it.

With Rebels whining, I'd deal with this two ways. Firstly, teaching him self control, things like waiting for permission to go through a door (also useful when you've got children leaving doors open and wandering about) waiting for their dinner etc. With waiting for their dinner, I like to ask the dog to sit, say nothing and start putting the food on the floor. If the dog stands up I say 'whoops' and pick the bowl up again. After a few minutes the dog will sit and wait for you to release him. For really greedy dogs, you may need to feed him from his bowl while he's still in the sit to reinforce 'wait there' otherwise they can get stressed and frustrated and stop thinking. I'd also work on teaching him a down stay in his bed. Put him in his bed for up to 10 minutes at a time, firstly work on extending the time he's in his bed, then when he's happy to wait for 10 mins (and relaxed, not lying waiting for his next command) start introducing distractions. You start off not very distracting (ie you walking about, progress to doing all manner of interesting things with your body language up to jumping up and down or dancing or something) then when you can do anything, bring in the other dog, start off quiety training and then build up to being able to play tuggy games with one dog while the other is in a relaxed down stay (emphasis on 'relaxed'!!) Make sure you don't have a massive reward at the end of the down stay, you'll teach your dog to look forward to that and try to pre empt it. Reward the dog for staying with lots of smiles and verbal praise, and make the release very low key, so the dog would rather go back and do it again.

The other thing you can do, is give him an activity toy like a stuffed Kong (or a chew) and pop him in his crate while you play with/train your other dog out of sight. He needs to have good things happen when he's isolated (chews/kong etc) so he doesn't get bored and frustrated. Practice this calm, quiet behaviour at the end of the day when he's tired it'll be easier.

With the jumping up, obviously ignore any jumping and reward calm behaviour (collies love something to do, a sit is great) but to generalise, I would invite people round specifically to train the dog. Their attitudes change if they're coming round for that purpose. When people come to see you they either see greeting the dog as an inconvenience or are over the top enthusiastic. Ring people up and say you're training the dog to greet people calmly, and they'll be expecting and willing to work with the dog. Get one person to come in and out loads, it'll get boring pretty quickly and you'll find the dogs get less excited and will learn quicker. If you get people who 'dont mind' the dogs jumping up, tell them your dog has a back problem and jumping up will make it worse. Dishonest but it works!

You'll never physically tire a collie, I don't think it can be done :lol: you'll have to work on getting their minds tired. I know I can go for a relaxing walk all day with my dogs, but I'm more tired after a couple of hours teaching classes, it's the mental stuff that tires everyone out more. You've already had scent games mentioned, and clicker training. I would clicker train 'useful' tricks like shutting the door, putting something in the bin and fetching things. You can get them to carry a little basket with a handle on, then you can put all the baby things in there, and while you carry the baby they can bring nappieis and wipes downstairs for you. They'll LOVE being involved! Also you can train them to go and touch their nose on things, you saying 'not that' on each thing until they touch something you want, then you say 'yesss fetch that' and they'll bring it over. Imagine being on the floor changing a nappy, realising you've left the wipes at the other side of the room and sending the dog to fetch them. Dogs love it and it's helpful. A good clicker training book (or a good trainer if you would prefer hands on help) will help you teach those things.

When your new baby comes home from the hospital, make sure you go inside and greet your dogs first, they'll have missed you and will be over excited, if you add an exciting little bundle in to that mixture they'll be hooligans! Go in, greet them, make a fuss and then bring the baby in. Let them sniff the baby and praise them for being calm, then give them a nice chew to go and settle down while you put your feet up and recover.

Don't fall into the easy trap of making up for the lost attention when the baby is asleep, you'll just teach the dogs that baby being around is bad. When you're busy with the baby, talk to your dogs, invovle them in the action (not literally, dogs are rubbish at bathing babies :wink: )

Most importantly, enjoy your new arrival and your big family! It's so easy to stress about the little things but make sure you focus on the good stuff. Your dogs will be great therapy for you, talking them out for walks and playing ball when you've been stuck in the house all day will be fantastic!

Ooh, and also remember, all the practice you get training dogs and modifying their behaviour calmly and consistently will come in VERY useful when you're dealing with a toddler!!!
mum24dog
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Post by mum24dog »

Josie wrote:Firstly, congratulations on your pregnancy. I have to say Ooh, and also remember, all the practice you get training dogs and modifying their behaviour calmly and consistently will come in VERY useful when you're dealing with a toddler!!!
Absolutely right.
And for raising children and dogs Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog" is essential reading IMO.
I wish I'd read it before I had children.

Pam
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