My 17month old collie cross ***** is resourcing guarding me against the rest of the family. I have been using Jean Donaldson's book 'Mine!' as a tool for guarding against objects and certainly, where that has been successful in most instances. The desensitisation exercises are also appropriate for instances where an owner is also guarded however, I am being a bit thick and can't figure out how best to do it. Can anyone help? It also extends to visitors and the problem seems to be worse if anyone is in the least nervous of her - that's when I have to put her away.
My daughters are fed up of being leapt and nipped at every time they come near me. They also get this treatment if they walk by a toy she may have - in this instance I realise they also need to do the guarding exercises however try getting two teenagers to make the time and effort!
Resource guarding - me!
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jasperaliceuk
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:56 am
- Location: Surrey, England
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jasperaliceuk
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:56 am
- Location: Surrey, England
Hi
Her usually action is to growl slightly and leap nipping or nip at legs of the girls if they come over to me. For example she doesn't sleep upstairs but when she is let up in the morning she will settle next to the bed - not always but sometimes if one of the girls come in she will become very alert, eyeball her and if they get too close to me she will rush them.
Same goes for other times - the girls forever run up and downstairs - seem totally unable to walk! - she has been known to chase after them and attempt to nip.
If I catch her ready to pounce as it were I will tell her to leave and praise and treat her if she does just that. She wears a houseline a lot of the time and we have attempted to give her a time out for a couple of minutes. Taking her away on the houseline exacerbates the aggression and she will nip and growl at the legs of whoever is trying to take her away.
I get confused as to the right action to take if she does nip like this - my behaviourist said to take zero tolerance to nipping - I'm not sure shouting no at her helps and try to be calm. I try to maintain positive training methods and she is praised to the heavens for her good behaviour when she is around the girls. She has also extended this behaviour to my husband on occasion.
I am her main trainer and she is with me all day so its perhaps not surprising. My husband and I do all the dog walking - she gets two walks a day, sometimes three and to be honest although she can run for England - exercise does not seem to affect this behaviour, whether more or less.
The girls reckon her behaviour is much better when I am not around - in fact she is generally quieter (I reckon she sulks!)
The Mine book gives a desensitization programme for guarding objects, ie object exchanges starting at distance and with non-guarded objects to most guarded and in dogs possession - a protracted set of exercises which seem to have helped (although I can't help thinking my dog thinks it is just a jolly game where she gets loads of treats). Although I have followed it to the letter the strategy which has worked best is getting her to fetch something she has stolen in return for a high value reward (even though she will now steal deliberately to get a treat!) Stolen food is still an issue although I was very proud to have exhanged a whole bar of chocolate yesterday nicked from my daughter with not a single growl although it took a while to persuade her that pork pie pastry was better!
The book covers resource guarding of territory, objects etc and treats guarding of an owner as a resource but doesn't give a specific programme to follow as for the objects - I am uncertain how to adapt it.
It may be that I have to call my behaviourist in again (we have not covered aggression tendencies) but I would like to to set some strategies in place and also make sure that I am covering all the strategies my behaviourist has asked us to do for her other issues - territorial barking. jumping up, hyperactivity.
This is getting long - so I'll stop but just add that she was a rescue from Ireland at 11 weeks old. Found in a shed at 9 weeks so she will not have had that early socialization - more than likely the origin of her issues!
Her usually action is to growl slightly and leap nipping or nip at legs of the girls if they come over to me. For example she doesn't sleep upstairs but when she is let up in the morning she will settle next to the bed - not always but sometimes if one of the girls come in she will become very alert, eyeball her and if they get too close to me she will rush them.
Same goes for other times - the girls forever run up and downstairs - seem totally unable to walk! - she has been known to chase after them and attempt to nip.
If I catch her ready to pounce as it were I will tell her to leave and praise and treat her if she does just that. She wears a houseline a lot of the time and we have attempted to give her a time out for a couple of minutes. Taking her away on the houseline exacerbates the aggression and she will nip and growl at the legs of whoever is trying to take her away.
I get confused as to the right action to take if she does nip like this - my behaviourist said to take zero tolerance to nipping - I'm not sure shouting no at her helps and try to be calm. I try to maintain positive training methods and she is praised to the heavens for her good behaviour when she is around the girls. She has also extended this behaviour to my husband on occasion.
I am her main trainer and she is with me all day so its perhaps not surprising. My husband and I do all the dog walking - she gets two walks a day, sometimes three and to be honest although she can run for England - exercise does not seem to affect this behaviour, whether more or less.
The girls reckon her behaviour is much better when I am not around - in fact she is generally quieter (I reckon she sulks!)
The Mine book gives a desensitization programme for guarding objects, ie object exchanges starting at distance and with non-guarded objects to most guarded and in dogs possession - a protracted set of exercises which seem to have helped (although I can't help thinking my dog thinks it is just a jolly game where she gets loads of treats). Although I have followed it to the letter the strategy which has worked best is getting her to fetch something she has stolen in return for a high value reward (even though she will now steal deliberately to get a treat!) Stolen food is still an issue although I was very proud to have exhanged a whole bar of chocolate yesterday nicked from my daughter with not a single growl although it took a while to persuade her that pork pie pastry was better!
The book covers resource guarding of territory, objects etc and treats guarding of an owner as a resource but doesn't give a specific programme to follow as for the objects - I am uncertain how to adapt it.
It may be that I have to call my behaviourist in again (we have not covered aggression tendencies) but I would like to to set some strategies in place and also make sure that I am covering all the strategies my behaviourist has asked us to do for her other issues - territorial barking. jumping up, hyperactivity.
This is getting long - so I'll stop but just add that she was a rescue from Ireland at 11 weeks old. Found in a shed at 9 weeks so she will not have had that early socialization - more than likely the origin of her issues!
Hiya
Its not a particularly unusual collie trait to be honest, they are smart smart dogs, they know whats going to get their owners going!
Ok, first matter, train the kids. I know... not easy....
However they can be trained in the same way as dogs, reward the good, set them up to succeed, prevent the bad or ignore the bad, whichever is applicable....
You can also reason with kids to a certain extent so how about 'walk dont run, on pain of death, or i sell you on Ebay....'
Id advise sitting them down and explaining that running around for a reactive collie is a really exciting event and she
will want to chase and growl and nip. If theyd rather not get nipped, they need to slooooooooow down.
I feel for you though ive had to train my OH and housemate (both late 20s lads) to walk, not run, and close doors IF they need to be closed (and most dont), quietly, not rush out and slam them..... or my VERY reactive lurcher gets riled up and displays frustration behaviour.
I would also recommend that you all, ESPECIALLY the kids if they are old enough, spend time doing training adn playing with her. If your kids can possibly take over feeding and control of going to teh garden for toiletting thats even better.
At the moment, YOU are really important, i would assume that all good things come from you, you are a resource she needs to keep control of. The kids are not.
If you make THEM more important in her eyes, she has less need of guarding you, everyone is a valuable resource then.
If you are tiring her brain out playing various problem solving games with her, such as teaching her the name of various items and getting her to find them when hidden, interactive toys like Iqubes, clicker training she will have less need to concentrate on her important resources.
I definately wouldnt shout at her when she does display these behaviours. Can you stop her from lying directly beside the bed, perhaps to one side so when the kids come in they arent approaching her head on?
Id teach her a rock solid stay as well. If she wants to be in the room fine but she must stay in the place shes told to.
Teach her ALL the commands she must know in as many different places around the house, garden and outdoors as you can. Dogs tend to be context specific - sit 'in the garden' = sit. sit 'in the bedroom' may = nothing.
Wherever possible, find a behaviour to replace the ones you dont want. Simply trying to erase a behaviour is generally not very productive, all these things she does she does from real NEED, although she doesnt realise she doesnt have to do them.
If you try to remove them without replacing shes left with nothing to do to fill that need and will either, fail to stop doing what you dont want, or replace it with something equally unpleasant.
So, for instance. If shes taught to stay, she cant be running to nip.
I do think though that she views you as incredibly important and you need to make yourself much LESS valuable to her and let your kids and your OH do much more with her to achieve that.
DONT be tempted to go overboard and completely ignore her, some people think thats a good plan but i personally believe that it leads to a withdrawn and confused dog and in a sensitive collie type thats never wise.
For now, I would not let her have access to guests, especially nervous ones. Work on that once shes happy with the kids and your OH.
Hth
Em
Its not a particularly unusual collie trait to be honest, they are smart smart dogs, they know whats going to get their owners going!
Ok, first matter, train the kids. I know... not easy....
However they can be trained in the same way as dogs, reward the good, set them up to succeed, prevent the bad or ignore the bad, whichever is applicable....
You can also reason with kids to a certain extent so how about 'walk dont run, on pain of death, or i sell you on Ebay....'
Id advise sitting them down and explaining that running around for a reactive collie is a really exciting event and she
will want to chase and growl and nip. If theyd rather not get nipped, they need to slooooooooow down.
I feel for you though ive had to train my OH and housemate (both late 20s lads) to walk, not run, and close doors IF they need to be closed (and most dont), quietly, not rush out and slam them..... or my VERY reactive lurcher gets riled up and displays frustration behaviour.
I would also recommend that you all, ESPECIALLY the kids if they are old enough, spend time doing training adn playing with her. If your kids can possibly take over feeding and control of going to teh garden for toiletting thats even better.
At the moment, YOU are really important, i would assume that all good things come from you, you are a resource she needs to keep control of. The kids are not.
If you make THEM more important in her eyes, she has less need of guarding you, everyone is a valuable resource then.
If you are tiring her brain out playing various problem solving games with her, such as teaching her the name of various items and getting her to find them when hidden, interactive toys like Iqubes, clicker training she will have less need to concentrate on her important resources.
I definately wouldnt shout at her when she does display these behaviours. Can you stop her from lying directly beside the bed, perhaps to one side so when the kids come in they arent approaching her head on?
Id teach her a rock solid stay as well. If she wants to be in the room fine but she must stay in the place shes told to.
Teach her ALL the commands she must know in as many different places around the house, garden and outdoors as you can. Dogs tend to be context specific - sit 'in the garden' = sit. sit 'in the bedroom' may = nothing.
Wherever possible, find a behaviour to replace the ones you dont want. Simply trying to erase a behaviour is generally not very productive, all these things she does she does from real NEED, although she doesnt realise she doesnt have to do them.
If you try to remove them without replacing shes left with nothing to do to fill that need and will either, fail to stop doing what you dont want, or replace it with something equally unpleasant.
So, for instance. If shes taught to stay, she cant be running to nip.
I do think though that she views you as incredibly important and you need to make yourself much LESS valuable to her and let your kids and your OH do much more with her to achieve that.
DONT be tempted to go overboard and completely ignore her, some people think thats a good plan but i personally believe that it leads to a withdrawn and confused dog and in a sensitive collie type thats never wise.
For now, I would not let her have access to guests, especially nervous ones. Work on that once shes happy with the kids and your OH.
Hth
Em
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jasperaliceuk
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:56 am
- Location: Surrey, England
Thanks very much for your really helpful advice Em - I sort of know what I must do but need someone to tell me (also means I can give the evidence to the kids and OH which lets them know I didn't make it up!).
I'll up her mental training - she does love seek and find and her buster cube - its so like keeping a toddler entertained else they get into everything!
Looks like the others will have to take over for a little while anyway - did my back in yesterday evening so can't even manage a walk
Also meant to say in my last post - its not as if she is horrible to the kids all the time - she's all over them when they get out of their 'pits' in the morning and if they take the time to play with her. One thing I know she hates is being ignored - that makes her frustrated - I think its time for mum to put her foot down and make sure they realise she needs occupying!
I'll up her mental training - she does love seek and find and her buster cube - its so like keeping a toddler entertained else they get into everything!
Looks like the others will have to take over for a little while anyway - did my back in yesterday evening so can't even manage a walk
Also meant to say in my last post - its not as if she is horrible to the kids all the time - she's all over them when they get out of their 'pits' in the morning and if they take the time to play with her. One thing I know she hates is being ignored - that makes her frustrated - I think its time for mum to put her foot down and make sure they realise she needs occupying!
Hmmm, this sort of thing worries me.
On the positive side, resource guarding issues have a very good prognosis.
OK, stealing things to get a treat is EXCELLENT. When we reinforce a behaviour we get MORE OF IT (sorry to shout, it's a happy shout though). That is how it works. Never mind that it's only to get food, use whatever reinforcer works best to solve the problem right now - food is ideal.
You're at the point where the retrieving is not yet on cue and is simply being freely offered with no other discriminating stimuli to control it. Good - this is the first step.
The next step is to put it on cue and only reinforce it in the presence of the cue.
--- keep up the good work!
Now, growling and nipping...
Dogs just do what works for them. If growling and nipping work, they will do it more. Again, that's how reinforcement works.
Cessation of reinforcement is Extinction. Exctinction has an Extinction Burst. If you cease to reinforce growling and nipping, you get growling and biting. By the time this behaviour has become a "problem behaviour", you have a potentially dangerous situation to treat, particularly if there are children involved.
You really need to manage her so that she CANNOT practise this behaviour around your children ever again until you have trained an alternative behaviour - which you have already started to do.
If she can learn that people only ever approach to swap or give, then there is nothing to guard. If she is voluntarily giving up objects you have a big head start. This is an alternative behaviour.
I'll log in again in a few days because this post has probably raised more questions than it has answered.
On the positive side, resource guarding issues have a very good prognosis.
OK, stealing things to get a treat is EXCELLENT. When we reinforce a behaviour we get MORE OF IT (sorry to shout, it's a happy shout though). That is how it works. Never mind that it's only to get food, use whatever reinforcer works best to solve the problem right now - food is ideal.
You're at the point where the retrieving is not yet on cue and is simply being freely offered with no other discriminating stimuli to control it. Good - this is the first step.
The next step is to put it on cue and only reinforce it in the presence of the cue.
--- keep up the good work!
Now, growling and nipping...
Dogs just do what works for them. If growling and nipping work, they will do it more. Again, that's how reinforcement works.
Cessation of reinforcement is Extinction. Exctinction has an Extinction Burst. If you cease to reinforce growling and nipping, you get growling and biting. By the time this behaviour has become a "problem behaviour", you have a potentially dangerous situation to treat, particularly if there are children involved.
You really need to manage her so that she CANNOT practise this behaviour around your children ever again until you have trained an alternative behaviour - which you have already started to do.
If she can learn that people only ever approach to swap or give, then there is nothing to guard. If she is voluntarily giving up objects you have a big head start. This is an alternative behaviour.
I'll log in again in a few days because this post has probably raised more questions than it has answered.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
P.S When you drag a dog away on a long-line in this situation you are stopping them from using "what works", hence, the escalation in aggressive behaviours. The same applies for yelling at your dog.
Effective punishment means the behaviour reduces - if it increases you are not using effective punishment. It is very difficult to use punishment effectively in this sort of situation without suffering harmful fall-out. That's not to say it can't be done, but it would be hard to stomach if you did!
Effective punishment means the behaviour reduces - if it increases you are not using effective punishment. It is very difficult to use punishment effectively in this sort of situation without suffering harmful fall-out. That's not to say it can't be done, but it would be hard to stomach if you did!
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
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jasperaliceuk
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:56 am
- Location: Surrey, England
Thanks for your replies too Aidan.
Re - the retrieve - she is pretty good at that - if she does steal something I will walk away from her then come back at a small distance, crouch down and ask her to fetch me the object which she will do, in return for her treat. I try and get her to put it in my hand so that we both have contact of the object and then it seems more like sharing if you get my drift. I'll do the same if I give her a chew - hang on to it for a while and let her chew and then let her have the whole thing. The distance away from her rather than immediately going up and removing the object seems to be a deciding factor. However, there are also occasions when I will go and just remove the object (its usually something I know she will not guard - she has just taken it for attention). Then I will just praise her as a variable reinforcement strategy.
'Leave it' is a command which she has learnt almost 100% and I use it in numerous situations. Although if its chasing a squirrel - all hope is lost!
Re, growling and nipping. Firstly I should add that my children and 18 and 13 so I am not contending with toddlers here. However, that is not to justify anything. I am still uncertain as to why she takes this strategy with them - I do feel that their lack of participation in her day to day handling is paramount. The youngest is quite good at engaging her in play but as for walking her - there is always something better to do! The eldest wavers between liking the dog (she actually prefers the cat) and disliking (Lily's nickname is Satan!). She can be nervous around her and I think Lily picks up on this.
One idea I have (which I'm sure I read somewhere) is for the children to drop a treat by Lily everytime they pass by (and in particular if she is by something she will guard from them). As you mentioned in one of your paragraphs this could be her alternative behaviour but the timing needs to be just right before she gets into her defensive mode. I have also asked the children to get her to give an alternative behaviour such as sit, down, paw etc if they see her about to lunge. This does work and the mood change is immediate, something which I have to say I find puzzling - its really as if there is a conflict of emotions.
This sudden way and ease in which her mood can change was well exemplified on a walk last night when a large collie came up to her off lead while she was on lead (she can be lead aggressive with strange dogs) The collie had a growl at her so she had a go back - sounded horrendous as scraps do. The collie's owner and we decided to let her off lead and they immediately began playing. 3 or 4 other dogs (most of which were young pups) all joined in and they had a fabulous time.
So, what I am trying to say (in my usual long winded fashion) is that I feel sure that it is fear aggression which is behind most of her unruly behaviour - fear of being trapped on lead, fear of someone getting her toy, fear of someone getting too close to me etc.
I don't want to paint a picture of being an absolute horror - people who like dogs find her irresistibly cute (hard to believe when I see her in aggressive mode). She just needs to be assured that good things can come out of all those things which she perceives as scary and which are not.
Re - the retrieve - she is pretty good at that - if she does steal something I will walk away from her then come back at a small distance, crouch down and ask her to fetch me the object which she will do, in return for her treat. I try and get her to put it in my hand so that we both have contact of the object and then it seems more like sharing if you get my drift. I'll do the same if I give her a chew - hang on to it for a while and let her chew and then let her have the whole thing. The distance away from her rather than immediately going up and removing the object seems to be a deciding factor. However, there are also occasions when I will go and just remove the object (its usually something I know she will not guard - she has just taken it for attention). Then I will just praise her as a variable reinforcement strategy.
'Leave it' is a command which she has learnt almost 100% and I use it in numerous situations. Although if its chasing a squirrel - all hope is lost!
Re, growling and nipping. Firstly I should add that my children and 18 and 13 so I am not contending with toddlers here. However, that is not to justify anything. I am still uncertain as to why she takes this strategy with them - I do feel that their lack of participation in her day to day handling is paramount. The youngest is quite good at engaging her in play but as for walking her - there is always something better to do! The eldest wavers between liking the dog (she actually prefers the cat) and disliking (Lily's nickname is Satan!). She can be nervous around her and I think Lily picks up on this.
One idea I have (which I'm sure I read somewhere) is for the children to drop a treat by Lily everytime they pass by (and in particular if she is by something she will guard from them). As you mentioned in one of your paragraphs this could be her alternative behaviour but the timing needs to be just right before she gets into her defensive mode. I have also asked the children to get her to give an alternative behaviour such as sit, down, paw etc if they see her about to lunge. This does work and the mood change is immediate, something which I have to say I find puzzling - its really as if there is a conflict of emotions.
This sudden way and ease in which her mood can change was well exemplified on a walk last night when a large collie came up to her off lead while she was on lead (she can be lead aggressive with strange dogs) The collie had a growl at her so she had a go back - sounded horrendous as scraps do. The collie's owner and we decided to let her off lead and they immediately began playing. 3 or 4 other dogs (most of which were young pups) all joined in and they had a fabulous time.
So, what I am trying to say (in my usual long winded fashion) is that I feel sure that it is fear aggression which is behind most of her unruly behaviour - fear of being trapped on lead, fear of someone getting her toy, fear of someone getting too close to me etc.
I don't want to paint a picture of being an absolute horror - people who like dogs find her irresistibly cute (hard to believe when I see her in aggressive mode). She just needs to be assured that good things can come out of all those things which she perceives as scary and which are not.
Apply similar tactics to children..... walk the dog BIG reward...... reward them for not hurtling up and down the stairs and make a big (to the point of embarrassment!) fuss about it.....
You'll see results (although they may just move out
), in both the kids and the dog!
Not much to add really, you have a very good grasp of your dogs mentality, you know what sets her off and whilst the 'why' is important its not the be all and end all.
Why is probably a mixture of her early life and her breed traits, collies are hard wired to use staring challenges and nipping to get their own way. With stroppy sheep and cattle thats great and if youve ever seen welsh hill sheep being worked by a collie, youll see exactly WHY they need to stare and nip. Those sheep dont take sh*t from anyone adn will stamp and charge and bite a 'soft' dog if they dont simply plain ignore them.
Let us know how you get on with replacing her guarding behaviour of you, and shifting the roles of 'important persons' away from you slightly.
Em
You'll see results (although they may just move out
), in both the kids and the dog!Not much to add really, you have a very good grasp of your dogs mentality, you know what sets her off and whilst the 'why' is important its not the be all and end all.
Why is probably a mixture of her early life and her breed traits, collies are hard wired to use staring challenges and nipping to get their own way. With stroppy sheep and cattle thats great and if youve ever seen welsh hill sheep being worked by a collie, youll see exactly WHY they need to stare and nip. Those sheep dont take sh*t from anyone adn will stamp and charge and bite a 'soft' dog if they dont simply plain ignore them.
Let us know how you get on with replacing her guarding behaviour of you, and shifting the roles of 'important persons' away from you slightly.
Em
Having your children drop a treat works at the level of associations (aka Classical Conditioning), it builds a 'good' association and sets her at ease. Each time they approach, they 'give' and not 'take away'.
--I am still uncertain as to why she takes this strategy with them - I do feel that their lack of participation in her day to day handling is paramount. --
Your kids simply let the behaviour work for her and don't have other strategies for dealing with the unwanted behaviour. Their nervousness causes their behaviour - they back off or otherwise avoid the confrontation. This reinforces growling, nipping etc NOTE: I am not suggesting that they stand their ground, it's far too late for that.
-- This does work and the mood change is immediate, something which I have to say I find puzzling - its really as if there is a conflict of emotions.--
Emotions certainly exist (as we can all attest to), but right now we're working with learned behaviour - behaviour that has been reinforced.
The emotions cause the original behaviour but it is what happens after that which serves to increase or maintain it.
What you are interpreting as sudden changes in mood are really sudden changes in observable behaviour, going from one learned behaviour to another. There are certainly emotional components, but it would be confusing the issue to worry too much about these right now. Anything Em or I or Victoria suggest will address the emotional issues by default because we use positive reinforcement techniques.
You are right about fear being at the root of some of these behaviours, but by now it is too late to use approaches which work solely at an emotional level - you really need to work on the learned behaviour.
Just as an aside, put yourself in a 'nervous' posture, with a nervous facial expression. How do you feel? Now straighten up and smile a big beaming smile. Now how do you feel?
Re: retrieve - sounds like you're doing a great job. Will she only give up the object if you show her the treat? If so, that is fine, but work towards not showing her the treat and simply having the behaviour on cue. "Fade" the treat from your hand to your pocket, then to the kitchen bench, dinner table, mantle etc In the end she shouldn't know whether there is a treat or there isn't a treat, but there almost always will be.
Praise alone is rarely an effective reinforcer. A variable schedule of reinforcement requires an effective reinforcer used intermittently (in this case, food). It is too soon to go to a variable schedule, keep to a continuous schedule for now.
Variable schedules also yield variable results. You do NOT want variable results with this sort of behaviour!!!
Working towards fading the food from your hand is a much better strategy than using a VSR.
Your children definitely need to be working on trades with her. Every day. Turn it into a fun game and get them to make a habit of it. This will also reduce any residual nervousness they have about her. They don't have to walk her but they do have to play retrieve or trades with her (providing it is safe to do so).
Another game you might like to play with the chewy treats is to have two chewy treats. Play trades for the chewy treats a few times, then let her keep one (and put the other one away for next time).
--I am still uncertain as to why she takes this strategy with them - I do feel that their lack of participation in her day to day handling is paramount. --
Your kids simply let the behaviour work for her and don't have other strategies for dealing with the unwanted behaviour. Their nervousness causes their behaviour - they back off or otherwise avoid the confrontation. This reinforces growling, nipping etc NOTE: I am not suggesting that they stand their ground, it's far too late for that.
-- This does work and the mood change is immediate, something which I have to say I find puzzling - its really as if there is a conflict of emotions.--
Emotions certainly exist (as we can all attest to), but right now we're working with learned behaviour - behaviour that has been reinforced.
The emotions cause the original behaviour but it is what happens after that which serves to increase or maintain it.
What you are interpreting as sudden changes in mood are really sudden changes in observable behaviour, going from one learned behaviour to another. There are certainly emotional components, but it would be confusing the issue to worry too much about these right now. Anything Em or I or Victoria suggest will address the emotional issues by default because we use positive reinforcement techniques.
You are right about fear being at the root of some of these behaviours, but by now it is too late to use approaches which work solely at an emotional level - you really need to work on the learned behaviour.
Just as an aside, put yourself in a 'nervous' posture, with a nervous facial expression. How do you feel? Now straighten up and smile a big beaming smile. Now how do you feel?
Re: retrieve - sounds like you're doing a great job. Will she only give up the object if you show her the treat? If so, that is fine, but work towards not showing her the treat and simply having the behaviour on cue. "Fade" the treat from your hand to your pocket, then to the kitchen bench, dinner table, mantle etc In the end she shouldn't know whether there is a treat or there isn't a treat, but there almost always will be.
Praise alone is rarely an effective reinforcer. A variable schedule of reinforcement requires an effective reinforcer used intermittently (in this case, food). It is too soon to go to a variable schedule, keep to a continuous schedule for now.
Variable schedules also yield variable results. You do NOT want variable results with this sort of behaviour!!!
Working towards fading the food from your hand is a much better strategy than using a VSR.
Your children definitely need to be working on trades with her. Every day. Turn it into a fun game and get them to make a habit of it. This will also reduce any residual nervousness they have about her. They don't have to walk her but they do have to play retrieve or trades with her (providing it is safe to do so).
Another game you might like to play with the chewy treats is to have two chewy treats. Play trades for the chewy treats a few times, then let her keep one (and put the other one away for next time).
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
-
jasperaliceuk
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:56 am
- Location: Surrey, England
On the button again Em and Aidan. I'm printing this all off for a big family read and discussion!
My biggest problem is confusing all the dog training theories - I read loads and when I come against conflicting theories - noise aversives for example - advocated by some and not by others (and a whole new thread!) - then I become confused and uncertain which to apply - thats when I confuse the family in telling them how they should be managing the dog.
I forgot to mention that I clicker train which I love and to which Lily is very receptive so that is normally incorporated.
When I first took a peek at this forum a few days ago I was mainly impressed with the positive training angle and the fact that your replies to posts were sensible and, more importantly, clear to the reader. So, thanks again.
My biggest problem is confusing all the dog training theories - I read loads and when I come against conflicting theories - noise aversives for example - advocated by some and not by others (and a whole new thread!) - then I become confused and uncertain which to apply - thats when I confuse the family in telling them how they should be managing the dog.
I forgot to mention that I clicker train which I love and to which Lily is very receptive so that is normally incorporated.
When I first took a peek at this forum a few days ago I was mainly impressed with the positive training angle and the fact that your replies to posts were sensible and, more importantly, clear to the reader. So, thanks again.
Yes, it can be a bit confusing!
Don't worry too much about the different theories. People like a lot of different ways to explain the same thing, so I just stick to what is tested and verified over and over again, namely Classical and Operant Conditioning.
I have a reactive dog, and I can't tell you how many different things I have tried. What works is good, simple training. If you learn to use clicker training well you can do nearly anything. As soon as I just started training the behaviour I wanted and forgot about everything else it all started coming together.
Funny that!
Don't worry too much about the different theories. People like a lot of different ways to explain the same thing, so I just stick to what is tested and verified over and over again, namely Classical and Operant Conditioning.
I have a reactive dog, and I can't tell you how many different things I have tried. What works is good, simple training. If you learn to use clicker training well you can do nearly anything. As soon as I just started training the behaviour I wanted and forgot about everything else it all started coming together.
Funny that!
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com