I've been a dog trainer myself for quite some time now, and many of my clients would come to me after having pulled the dog out of a PetSmart class. One of the most recent was a 10month old Boxer with dog to dog aggression issues. She had to pull her out of the basic obedience group class because of the extremely high stress levels that her boxer would endure, being around the other dogs. The "Professional" PetSmart trainers stated that this was normal, but her aggression was getting worse. So she came to me some time after that, after seeing me working with my own dogs at a park.
So anyway, I went to PetSmart to ask them about their training. I was just curious and I wanted to provide my own clients with some insight. As I walked to their training area, I heard some one yelling "Ehh Ehh, NO!" I then talked to the trainer that was doing this. She stated that she was using purely positive reinforcement and clicker training. I'm sorry people, but just because you are using treats, does not mean it is posiitve training. I do not believe being yelled at is positive. Anyone care to argue with me on that one? So she went on telling me how their trainers have to go through a course and get certified and everything, I asked her how long the course was. 2 weeks, she said. Anyone who has a brain would know that 2 weeks is definately not enough time to become a dog trainer.
I'm just upset because there are so many people that go to their classes that people are getting the wrong idea about what positive training really is. It's helping to create a stigma about training. =(
So, are there any ideas on how I could go about protesting this?
PetSmart Investigation//Notification
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ChillyAndClover
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:16 pm
- Location: SC, in the USA
PetSmart Investigation//Notification
Chilly & Clover
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Petsmart
On their website - under the contact us link that you will find at the bottom of the page - they have contact information for both the individual stores, and their corporate headquarters. It would seem to me that your first step would be to make them aware of what you have been hearing and what you saw.
I have taken my dog to the local Petsmart training, and I was not particularly satisfied. Not because I didn't approve of the methods, but because the trainer was pretty inept. Sure, Rusty and I finished the basic and intermediate classes faster than the schedule would have suggested, but I absolutely DO NOT have an obedient dog. And while I'm willing to own my part in it, a larger part of the blame goes to a trainer who "went by the book," even though it meant moving faster than was really necessary (or wise, for that matter.)
Okay, time to get off my soapbox. Hope this helps!
I have taken my dog to the local Petsmart training, and I was not particularly satisfied. Not because I didn't approve of the methods, but because the trainer was pretty inept. Sure, Rusty and I finished the basic and intermediate classes faster than the schedule would have suggested, but I absolutely DO NOT have an obedient dog. And while I'm willing to own my part in it, a larger part of the blame goes to a trainer who "went by the book," even though it meant moving faster than was really necessary (or wise, for that matter.)
Okay, time to get off my soapbox. Hope this helps!
Hmm, I was actually looking into dog trainer schools, and one that I saw was a year long program and said they had a special relationship with petco for job placement. I'll have to double-check the name of the "school" but i'll put it up when I find it.
I've never had any experience with chain store trainers, but it seems risky. Kind of like asking the kid at the hardware store for advice. You might get somebody who's very knowledgeable, but your chances aren't great. I'm not trying to put them down or anything but I would say you have to pay attention decide whether they are meeting your needs just like any other trainer. Not all training styles fit all personalities, dog or human. Just like people there are dogs that learn in different ways, a good trainer will recognize that and work with you. (I don't mean positive v. harsh. I mean some dogs respond best to clickers, others are food motivated, toy motivated, etc...)
If the trainer expects the dog to change how it learns, find someone else who will train toward your dogs strengths. It's kind of like asking an adhd kid to sit in a desk all day, it just doesn't work and it creates more problems that it solves. It doesn't mean that someone with adhd is dumb. (I have it
) It just means they learn differently. Often when children with adhd are worked with, they score very highly on iq tests.
So even if your dog didn't score at the top of it's obedience class doesn't mean it's not smart. (Especially if it's a terrier, lol)
I've never had any experience with chain store trainers, but it seems risky. Kind of like asking the kid at the hardware store for advice. You might get somebody who's very knowledgeable, but your chances aren't great. I'm not trying to put them down or anything but I would say you have to pay attention decide whether they are meeting your needs just like any other trainer. Not all training styles fit all personalities, dog or human. Just like people there are dogs that learn in different ways, a good trainer will recognize that and work with you. (I don't mean positive v. harsh. I mean some dogs respond best to clickers, others are food motivated, toy motivated, etc...)
If the trainer expects the dog to change how it learns, find someone else who will train toward your dogs strengths. It's kind of like asking an adhd kid to sit in a desk all day, it just doesn't work and it creates more problems that it solves. It doesn't mean that someone with adhd is dumb. (I have it
) It just means they learn differently. Often when children with adhd are worked with, they score very highly on iq tests. So even if your dog didn't score at the top of it's obedience class doesn't mean it's not smart. (Especially if it's a terrier, lol)
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ChillyAndClover
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:16 pm
- Location: SC, in the USA
That's ok. But I was talking about PetSmart, not PetCo, but still, your information was useful, thanks.melhos123 wrote:Sorry,
forgot you were a trainer when you wrote that...please forgive
anyway the school was Animal Behavior College, have you heard of them?
Where did you go if it's okay to ask? I'm very interested in finding out more about becoming a trainer.
I have heard of the Animal Behavior College. I have talked to many people who come from there. Let's just say that I would not recommend wasting $3,000+ on the course.
Where did I go to become a dog trainer? Good question, I don't get asked that often, although I should. I never went through a course. I mentored with a couple different positive dog trainers for a couple years, and read LOTS of books. There are not any regulations on what you have to complete for becomeing a dog trainer. But to become a "Professional" you have to take a very expensive test, which I am planning on doing soon. I have been a dog trainer for about 5 years now. If you would like to become a dog trainer, I would say to mentor with a reputable trainer who has a lot of experience for as long as you need to, and read every positive dog training book you can get your hands on.
Chilly & Clover
[img]http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/ChillyTherapy/Clover/ChillyClover2-1.jpg[/img]
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To be fair dogtraining at petsmart has evolved. A few years ago they were still using and recommending chain and prong collars. As far as the use of verbal aversives like Eh, AH AH....VS uses them quite a bit so verbal aversives are not in and of themselves a breaker of positive based training.
From what I have seen in the dog training world, in most cases you pay for what you get. Petsmart's and PetCo's classes are run typically by very new and inexperienced trainers. Its a place where some got their start. Pay for trainers is just slightly above minimum wage. While taking some avanced training classes through our humane society we had a couple of petsmart trainers auditing our class. (Thats a good thing)
Second the location of the trianing area in the store is primarily done for promotional reasons. People see dogs in class and want to inquire more about classes. In terms work training it creates a hugely stressful environment for the dogs in the class. Mny strange noises, dogs both in and out of class, smells not only of treats but all the food items they sell, tiled flooring etc...Petsmart would be better to use part of their pet hotel to have the classes be a bit more isolated from the rest of the store, but see back at the promotion comment.
PetCo contracts with again inexperienced or new trainers to keep public costs down. Some are positive, some are not. Peto suffers the same issue of location whether its in the parking lot or in the store.
My area is lucky in that our humane society has a very impressive trining program with some very experienced training. The head trainer is a crossover trainer (came out of the dark side) and worked in many venues training a variety of dogs from pet obedience, ring obedience and shutzhund with more than 12 years experience. The HS keeps costs quite reasonable (6 week class is about $65) for the intro class to clocker training.
The trainers also frequently attend local seminars and all are members of CPDT. Without their help and guidence Khan would have not made the recovery he has and you all have read about his start.
From what I have seen in the dog training world, in most cases you pay for what you get. Petsmart's and PetCo's classes are run typically by very new and inexperienced trainers. Its a place where some got their start. Pay for trainers is just slightly above minimum wage. While taking some avanced training classes through our humane society we had a couple of petsmart trainers auditing our class. (Thats a good thing)
Second the location of the trianing area in the store is primarily done for promotional reasons. People see dogs in class and want to inquire more about classes. In terms work training it creates a hugely stressful environment for the dogs in the class. Mny strange noises, dogs both in and out of class, smells not only of treats but all the food items they sell, tiled flooring etc...Petsmart would be better to use part of their pet hotel to have the classes be a bit more isolated from the rest of the store, but see back at the promotion comment.
PetCo contracts with again inexperienced or new trainers to keep public costs down. Some are positive, some are not. Peto suffers the same issue of location whether its in the parking lot or in the store.
My area is lucky in that our humane society has a very impressive trining program with some very experienced training. The head trainer is a crossover trainer (came out of the dark side) and worked in many venues training a variety of dogs from pet obedience, ring obedience and shutzhund with more than 12 years experience. The HS keeps costs quite reasonable (6 week class is about $65) for the intro class to clocker training.
The trainers also frequently attend local seminars and all are members of CPDT. Without their help and guidence Khan would have not made the recovery he has and you all have read about his start.
The new Petsmart in our area - the one that has a PetsHotel - DOES use an enclosed room in that area for the training. True, a lot of the wall is glass, but it provides better segregation than in other places.ckranz wrote: Petsmart would be better to use part of their pet hotel to have the classes be a bit more isolated from the rest of the store, but see back at the promotion comment.
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LuvThemShedders
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:32 pm
- Contact:
[Where did I go to become a dog trainer? Good question, I don't get asked that often, although I should. I never went through a course. I mentored with a couple different positive dog trainers for a couple years, and read LOTS of books. There are not any regulations on what you have to complete for becomeing a dog trainer. But to become a "Professional" you have to take a very expensive test, which I am planning on doing soon. I have been a dog trainer for about 5 years now. If you would like to become a dog trainer, I would say to mentor with a reputable trainer who has a lot of experience for as long as you need to, and read every positive dog training book you can get your hands on.[/quote]
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The CCPDT test? I took it about a year ago. It's fairly comprehensive and was a bit over $300 I think. To keep your certification you also have to submit Continuing Education Units. I think it is 30 in three years? I got 18 from going to Clicker Expo for three days in January.
But of course, if you charge for training, you can be considered a "professional" without any certification, so it's definitely "buyer beward."
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The CCPDT test? I took it about a year ago. It's fairly comprehensive and was a bit over $300 I think. To keep your certification you also have to submit Continuing Education Units. I think it is 30 in three years? I got 18 from going to Clicker Expo for three days in January.
But of course, if you charge for training, you can be considered a "professional" without any certification, so it's definitely "buyer beward."
Sandy in OK
www.positivelycanine.com
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Robbi_Jennings
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:54 pm
- Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
- Contact:
Training methods at chain pet stores
Hi everyone. Being a trainer at my Petco store here in Santa Fe NM, i can vouch that my 3 month basic training and exhaustive reading has put me in touch with some solid basic training methods which i presume is what my company expects from me, but i myself am in constant exploration of new/newer/alternative methods and hints and idea's personally myself !
Our basics cover, watch me, sit down stay, recall, leave it, off etc, i am constantly being asked for more info that even some of my manuals did not provide and thankfully there are millions of sites out here to help. Even at 6 mths of training i am still learning every day.
The purpose of chain store dog trainers?, we can all make our assumption why they create our positions, but for myself i am proud to be allowed to help pet parents further their bonds with their pets further by helping them understand their pets language and training development.
Petco open training area's vs Petsmarts enclosed area's i feel even after my first intro/first weeks lessons, the open area distractions as one stated are helpful as i do have the pups attention even with all the sites sounds smells etc around me. So with all the customers, banging carts and talking, the dogs attention is focused on me only.
Twice a week i hold puppy socialization with a nice area set up in my store and with the larger pups on Saturdays and smaller pup's on Sundays. Most time i have a lot of my students in these sessions and even whilst tumbling and playing, i can recall a specific dog to sit and watch me whilst other dogs are still jumping all over the dog in question, So open area distraction not good? far from it!
Petco only uses positive reinforcement and up to today has been an incredible success, and the happiness it gives me as all other trainers know is wonderful..
Our basics cover, watch me, sit down stay, recall, leave it, off etc, i am constantly being asked for more info that even some of my manuals did not provide and thankfully there are millions of sites out here to help. Even at 6 mths of training i am still learning every day.
The purpose of chain store dog trainers?, we can all make our assumption why they create our positions, but for myself i am proud to be allowed to help pet parents further their bonds with their pets further by helping them understand their pets language and training development.
Petco open training area's vs Petsmarts enclosed area's i feel even after my first intro/first weeks lessons, the open area distractions as one stated are helpful as i do have the pups attention even with all the sites sounds smells etc around me. So with all the customers, banging carts and talking, the dogs attention is focused on me only.
Twice a week i hold puppy socialization with a nice area set up in my store and with the larger pups on Saturdays and smaller pup's on Sundays. Most time i have a lot of my students in these sessions and even whilst tumbling and playing, i can recall a specific dog to sit and watch me whilst other dogs are still jumping all over the dog in question, So open area distraction not good? far from it!
Petco only uses positive reinforcement and up to today has been an incredible success, and the happiness it gives me as all other trainers know is wonderful..
PetSmart
I don't feel it is fair to judge something based off of one or two stores. I have been training dogs for ten years now and a year and a half with PetSmart. I think it highly depends on the store with which ones applies. I know that even though I haad had my own Training business as well as been certified by the akc for Canine Good Citizen and was strong in the Service Therapy dog training market, PetSmart still made me go through over 96 hours of bookwork and then six weeks of supervision with dogs by their area trainer who had more than seven years experience, of which the firs two I was not allowed to do anything but oversee, take notes and ask questions, even though I had been training for years. I was just going back to school so PetSmart schedule really worked for me. I definitely do think it is store dependant because I know at our store there are two of us and the other girl has five years experience in field tracking/obedience and recently we have had several people come to our classes from other petsmarts asking for help because their trainers were ignorant. You really have to do the reasearch don't assume that because it is a chain you are only going to find new and inexperienced trainers, you have to do the research- interview your trainers whether at PetSmart or individually. As far as correction markers (eheh- ta etc.) Those do not break positive reinforcement training, and anyone who knows that method would be wiser. The trainer I agree could have been using them incorrectly as you are NEVER to yell at your dog!! That shows nothing but loss of control and can cause them to fear you which you never want- but when used correctly and calm assertive- it acts in place of telling them that they are doing something wrong and lets try something else, redirecting unwanted behaviors into wanted ones.
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Paul&Muttley
I had always heard bad things about the training at PetsMart or PetCo or other chain stores (Pet Depot?), but I understand that it is really the individual trainer that makes the difference, and some may be truly gifted while others may be just adequate at best. It is good to know that they are using positive methods, and I may at least visit the stores near me to get an idea of how they seem to be. I'll take my Muttley along and make sure the trainer gets to meet him.
I agree that a quick verbal correction seems to make sense to let a dog know that the immediate behavior is not wanted. If it is given immediately and fairly, and from a standpoint of calm confidence and assertiveness, I don't think it should cause any damage, and instead helps the dog learn that there are negative consequences for some behaviors. As long as such a "correction" is immediately followed by affection or replaced with a "good" behavior, it seems OK. Even Victoria uses a spoken "Uh-Oh" to "mark" an undesired behavior, followed by a -P consequence such as removing a toy or turning away to stop play.
I will check on the types of classes offered, costs, times, and other details. I imagine they vary depending on the store. At least now I will at least consider training classes at these stores. You've done a good job of promotion - now go get your big bonus checks!
I agree that a quick verbal correction seems to make sense to let a dog know that the immediate behavior is not wanted. If it is given immediately and fairly, and from a standpoint of calm confidence and assertiveness, I don't think it should cause any damage, and instead helps the dog learn that there are negative consequences for some behaviors. As long as such a "correction" is immediately followed by affection or replaced with a "good" behavior, it seems OK. Even Victoria uses a spoken "Uh-Oh" to "mark" an undesired behavior, followed by a -P consequence such as removing a toy or turning away to stop play.
I will check on the types of classes offered, costs, times, and other details. I imagine they vary depending on the store. At least now I will at least consider training classes at these stores. You've done a good job of promotion - now go get your big bonus checks!
I just joined this site, and I see here that some people had bad experiences at Petsmart. I think it certainly depends on the individual store and trainer. I had a very good experience in Brookfield, Wisconsin. The trainer used only positive methods, and gave individual attention to all the dogs and owners. She didn't follow the Petsmart curriculum, but used her own program. We spent a lot of time out in the store practicing long stays and loose-leash walking near the entrance and throughout the store around other dogs.
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veggievamp24
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:39 pm
Being a trainer at petsmart, I will admit that the two week training period I was sent through did not teach me nearly enough to be a good dog trainer. What has made me a good trainer is all the research I have put into it after that. I have read every book I could get my hands on about positive dog training and I have learned so much. The only reason I am still working at petsmart is because I don't have the money to start my own business right now. The training I was put through taught me enough to teach the basics. It taught me how to get your dog to sit, lay down, stay, come, etc... But what it didn't teach me is everything else. I learned one or two ways to stop unwanted behaviors like jumping, nipping, barking, etc... but that was it. And when those one or two ways didn't work, I was left feeling stupid. Which is why I did research. I didn't like not having an answer for a problem and every time a new issue was brought into my class that I didn't know how to solve, I went and bought a new book, or looked over an old one, to help me figure it out. So I will say I am pretty much sef taught because I didn't even learn half of my information during my training.
For those wondering what the training consisted of, here it is. I had to read a book on petsmarts methods on positive dog training. Take a test on it and then shadow an "area" trainer. Pretty much all I did was stand in class while she taught. Then after about a week I taught the class while she watched and told me what I was doing wrong. When not in class I was sent around the store trying to sell classes.
Someone said that petsmart has too much going on with noises, people, scents, etc... to train dogs. Well to some extent I agree. It is much harder. But what I tell my students is that if your dog can learn in petsmart with all the distractions, they will behave better when out somewhere with distractions then a dog who is taught with no distractions. But it can be frustrating to have all the distractions going on while trying to teach. But I make the best of it.
So to sum everything up, I agree. Petsmart does not send you through enough training to be an effective dog trainer. But that is not saying all petsmart trainers are horrible. Like I said I did a lot of extra work and I know a lot of other trainers that have to. What I would recommend is going to petsmart and watching a class and the trainer before signing up. Because you will be able to see whether or not they are effective enough. Also you could go ask them questions and see their responses. But I would not recommend just signing up for a class without meeting the trainer. But I wouldn't recommend that for anyone, not just someone going to petsmart.
For those wondering what the training consisted of, here it is. I had to read a book on petsmarts methods on positive dog training. Take a test on it and then shadow an "area" trainer. Pretty much all I did was stand in class while she taught. Then after about a week I taught the class while she watched and told me what I was doing wrong. When not in class I was sent around the store trying to sell classes.
Someone said that petsmart has too much going on with noises, people, scents, etc... to train dogs. Well to some extent I agree. It is much harder. But what I tell my students is that if your dog can learn in petsmart with all the distractions, they will behave better when out somewhere with distractions then a dog who is taught with no distractions. But it can be frustrating to have all the distractions going on while trying to teach. But I make the best of it.
So to sum everything up, I agree. Petsmart does not send you through enough training to be an effective dog trainer. But that is not saying all petsmart trainers are horrible. Like I said I did a lot of extra work and I know a lot of other trainers that have to. What I would recommend is going to petsmart and watching a class and the trainer before signing up. Because you will be able to see whether or not they are effective enough. Also you could go ask them questions and see their responses. But I would not recommend just signing up for a class without meeting the trainer. But I wouldn't recommend that for anyone, not just someone going to petsmart.