HELP! Dogsitting - Dog Bit my Neighbour UNPROVOKED

[belrose]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum, I just found it whilst searching for information on a very disturbing situation. My flatmate (we live in a 4br house with a large dog proof back yard, lots of trees and space to run) is on holidays at the moment and we are minding his ~6yo jack russell x fox terrier. She is a strange little dog, very nervous, anxious and fearful, often greets you baring her teeth. Her owner says it's 'smiling' but I'm not convinced in this instance, though I have seen dogs 'smile' before. Her owner does not walk her regularly (at all) maybe 2 trips up to the shops 5 mins away in the year he has lived here. We have been taking her for a good 2 hr walk up to the dog park (half hour return walk + play time) each evening and doing a little obedience training on and off the leash along the way. We thought she was responding well to this, seemed more settled, relaxed and happy. HOWEVER, last night I went to borrow a wheelbarrow from my next door neighbour and the dog followed me into their backyard, which I allowed her to do. After the neighbour had gotten the barrow out of his shed we stood there talking for a couple of seconds, when he jumped and said "she just bit me!!" I immediately turned to the dog and said "OUT!! Go Home!" as she is usually extremely obedient when you are very assertive. She took a few steps away and I turned back to my (retired) neighbour and said "Did she break the skin? Are you OK?" and as he was saying "Yes, I'm bleeding" Gemma started to come back towards him, and he started backing away into the bushes. I saw he was afraid so I turned on Gemma and ordered her out, followed her until she was out of his gate, called my partner to take her inside then went back to help my neighbour. He had about 4cm x 1cm skin ripped off where I think her top teeth were, and some scratches covering a 4cm2 area below and to the side where I think her bottom teeth were. After I ascertained that Peter was OK, and told him to go and wash the wound with soap and warm water in the shower, I went back home, told my partner what happened and we went out into our backyard to find the dog to castigate her. She tried to run away from us, as we approached before we said anything and acted very fearful. We pursued her and cornered her after a couple of laps, approaching from different directions. We firmly told her she was a bad dog and she was never to bite anyone ever and smacked her on her haunches a couple of times. Enough for her to know we meant business, but certainly not hard enough to cause any physical damage. She peed herself a couple of times. The entire castigating episode lasted ... oh well under a minute, maybe only 30 seconds. We tied her up to the clothesline with her leash (it was late afternoon, early evening) as she's a bit of a Houdini when it comes to getting out without you noticing and I couldn't risk her getting out after THAT! I went next door and dressed the wound on our neighbour's leg, and chatted with him and his wife for a couple of hours (doing a lot of apologising as well) and much later that night realised that I couldn't leave the dog tied up overnight as it was going to be very hot the next day, so I let her off the leash about midnight when we went to bed. She was very agitated (excited to see me, happy, jumping up on my leg, though I told her firmly to sit (she did after a few "sit"s ) and she ran around like a mad thing for a few minutes.
This morning when I went outside, as I opened the back door, she was there and started growling at me! (She's lived in this house for a year now and never done that). She seemed quite serious so I growled back at her and started advancing and pointing towards the corner of the backyard. She growled at me again and I said sharply "don't you growl at me" and "OUTSIDE" pointing away from the house.

I am very upset by this behaviour and don't feel comfortable about having a dog live here that displays this kind of behaviour. I am not afraid of her for myself, I can be assertive. The most she would ever get in at me would be one bite before I made it very clear that biting me was a VERY bad idea, but I am concerned about our neighbours and small children in the area.

A bit of background: My flatmate bought her as a 6 week old puppy from a pet shop. When she was younger (? less than a year old) she did something naughty (I can't remember what) and he kicked as punishment so hard she flew through the air a good several meters/yards and yelped and appeared to have a broken rib for several weeks afterwards. Unfortunately we did not know this when we allowed them to move in. He seems to favour corporal punishment as a form of training. When I caught the dog eating out of our compost bucket in the kitchen, spreading it everywhere, I said "NO", gave her a light smack on the bottom and told her to go outside. When I told her owner about it when he came home, he said "I hope you gave her a good belting" and I said, no and explained I didn't think that was the best way to train a dog. He kind of laughed at me. He never walks her or pays her much attention, though she does sleep on his bed at night. He's often out in the evenings.

Sorry for this to be such a long saga, but I thought it best to explain the whole situation. I don't know if what I did was right, wrong or otherwise, it was just a gut reaction to the circumstances and I had to act quickly.

My question is: what are your thoughts about this? What would you do?

I no longer feel I can trust the dog and would not be able to allow her to be off the least at the dog park. I don't even know that I want to take her to the dog park anymore which all the children running around. I feel she needs a second method of confinement as she's such a Houdini at getting out, past you if you open a door, but she's so hyperactive as it is, that she'd go positively mental tied up all day. I don't know much about muzzles, but don't really like the concept and you couldn't leave one on all the time, that's for sure. I also have an elderly cat 16 yo who I am concerned about now. The cat loves spending time in the back yard and has told me off in no uncertain terms today for keeping her inside.

What should I do? I understand that the dog's problems are likely a result of mistreatment or suboptimal treatment etc from her owner, and not really her fault, but, if it was my dog, I would probably have her put down. I just don't think a dog can be trusted once it attacks someone.

Please help, I really need to hear other people's opinions about this. Thanks very much for listening. Or reading

[Nettle]

There's a host of things to answer here so I will start and others will continue. This may sound harsh but is not meant to be - just if I gussy it up, it will run too long.

Dogs do not speak any human language.

Dogs live in the present. They do not associate something they have done in the past with a human attack in the present.

Dogs only have a small repertoire of sounds and actions with which to communicate to people. They have a vast amount of body language and tiny signals that most humans never notice, or else misinterpret or else ignore.

Dogs see the world in terms of nice and safe or nasty and unsafe.

Dogs learn very quickly to be defensive.

We have to earn our dogs' respect and trust. We do not have a "right" to be obeyed.

This dog has learned that people attack him without reason. There he is being a dog and suddenly he gets screamed at and struck. Presently he decides that warning people not to do this is the way to stay safe. But when he warns, he is attacked on an escalating scale. So his warnings escalate through growl-snarl-airsnap-light bite-severe bite.

He is a cross between two feisty breeds, so where another type might have shut down completely or developed severe neurosis, he elects to say, in the only way he can BACK OFF DON'T HURT ME.

Dogs never do anything without provocation, but we often miss the signs that the dog is uneasy. the neighbour may have done or smelt of or sounded like any number of things that, in this dog's experience, has been followed by an attack on him.

Then you both, with whom he thought he was safe, attacked him without warning.

Now you are upset because he warned you today not to attack him again.

That - briefly - is this dog's world seen through his eyes. His teeth might be big but he is very small compared with us. Very small, very frightened, very insecure.

That is the background. I'll leave it to someone lese to explain where you go from here.

[Nettle]

Sorry - no scope to edit - just realised I said 'he' and you have a lady dog.

[Fundog]

Besides everything Nettle just said, this poor little girl was most likely bred unethically, having been purchased so very young in a shop, and so was probably born unbalanced to begin with, and was not properly handled/socialized, and then for her owner to beat her the way he has, well... Heaven help the poor little thing. If she could be rehomed to loving people with infinite patience, and loads of skill, she might be able to be rehabilitated-- but it would have to be a home with no children, as she is just too unstable at this point to cope with them. Most shelters would probably label her as "unadoptable," and either put her to sleep, or send her to a pet sanctuary to live out the rest of her days. For sure she needs to get away from that evil man who owns her, or there will be no hope for her whatsoever.

[emmabeth]

Wow... theres a whole catalogue of misunderstandings and misinterpretations here... and most of them are coming from the HUMANS rather than the dog.

You correctly identify that shes nervous and fearful of much of life and you correctly identify why (shes never walked or trained or taught to do anything).

You correctly identify that the greeting with teeth bared thing is NOT a 'friendly smile'.. and you know shes a mix of two breeds bred to defend themselves at the hint of any threat to their person, or die trying!

You have known and lived with this dog for a YEAR and shes still wary and fearful around you... and you then let her get close to a stranger (your neighbour)...

And you are surprised when she bites him, when clearly neither he nor you knew exactly where she was, what she was doing or what her body language was saying, and you decide she bit unprovoked?

I can see a whole myriad provocations for biting, most of which are not in any way your fault but the fault of her owner and the fault of the person who bred her.

I have to say i am quite shocked at your reaction, though in another way glad you have been honest..

What you detail in hitting and yelling at her until she pees herself in fear is I am afraid, abuse. Theres no two ways about that.

More pertinent, what little trust she had in you is likely now gone - probably not for good IF you want to turn that around, but its going to take one hell of a lot of work and a TOTAL change around in your attitude (easy enough) and her owners attitude (good luck with that!) to achieve.


So.. moving on (since theres little point dwelling on mistakes on either side)...

1/ If she growls at you. Walk away and think 'what did i do to cause that'. So far shes learned to fear people and you now fall into her 'number one scary people' category. You do ANYTHING she thinks might lead to pain or further fear and shes gonna growl at you and if you carry it on, shes going to try to run away or bite you.
You have the bigger brain here and the ability to learn to communicate in other, foriegn languages - she doesnt, so its YOUR job to understand her, and to make yourself absolutely crystal clear to her.

Avoid making her growl - if she feels the need to growl you have further taught her shes right to be scared and be aggressive towards people. Think your way round problems instead of getting into confrontations and aggressive battles with her (hey you expect her not to be aggressive but you can beat the pee out of a dog whose what, a tenth of your size?).

Keep her IN the house where shes safe, keep a trailing leash on her (one with no loop on the end so it cant get tangled on anything) so you can control her movements if needs be without ordering or shouting or getting within her 'danger zone'.

Take her out ofthe house on a long leash - shes not making sensible decisions at the moment so its YOUR job to make them for her, you prevent her getting too close to people, or prevent people from getting too close to her.

Build up trust - thats going to take some time now, but it can be done.

Make sure every encounter you have with her is a pleasant one, a rewarding experience for her with treats and food and fun. That means managing the way you and she live together in such a way that she NEVER is pushed to defend herself. Set her up to succeed rather than fail at each opportunity - think outside the box!

Dont push her too fast, dont expect her to come to you for treats for example, throw the treats to her. Dont give her a college pop quiz when shes likely to fail, give her a kindergarten one!

Once she trusts you guys again, have a look at clicker trianing - this is a way she can learn to WANT to work with you and actively seek out opportunities to earn rewards and work for you. Currently she only does as she is told to avoid punishment - imagine if you were taught maths by being yelled at and beaten when you got it wrong, but were NEVER shown how to get it right? Thats how shes been trained and that is for anyone, an awful way to live, very negative and unpredictable and full of anxiety..

Exercise is important for all dogs, but it is also possible that this new level of pressure and stress is too much for her - and that could be a contributory factor in her having bitten the neighbour, Stress levels can take minutes to raise up to a dangerous level.... and take WEEKS to drop back down.

I hope you have read all these responses and take on board the advice given - I cannot apologise for comeing across harsh regarding what you did to this dog, because it was cruel and pointless - however it takes a LOT to come and ask for advice, when its not even your dog and you are not the person who has truly failed this dog and set her up for all these problems, so I (and i think we all on here) commend you for that.

Please take the responses you have had and those you will get in the spirit they are intended, aimed to help the dog who is totally innocent of all blame in this, coming from long standing animal lovers and more importantly animal RESPECTERS... who understand how dogs think and learn so unfortunately understand all too clearly the levels of fear and anxiety this little dog was going through even BEFORE she was punished for biting the neighbour.

Hope you stick around and can help her, she desperately needs someone willing!

[belrose]

Hi everyone and thank you so much for all your advice. I really appreciate the time and effort taken to respond in such detail.

I just want to clarify a couple of things as they either weren't mentioned in my haste or have been misconstrued.

1. The dog always pees herself. She actually started peeing herself as soon as we went outside. I know this sounds bad but WE HAVE NEVER ABUSED HER. Any smack has been light enough, that had it been on a human baby would not have even left a red mark at all and we only ever do this when incentive training has failed in a certain instance. She pees herself if she is left inside the house and someone comes home. She seems excited and happy, though probably nervous as well.

2. We have been walking her though not regularly since they moved in, using an incredible amount of positive encouragement, reassurance, petting and food rewards. This isn't actually a particularly new activity... we were hoping that by doing this, she would be less anxious and chew herself to pieces less. She did seem to respond well to these walks, and was much more settled for a few days after even a single walk.

3. The neighbour is not a stranger to her. She has been in his backyard before (once, often in the frontyard though) and she has sniffed him, been patted by him and is very used to him and I standing around talking. She followed me out of our yard or house or wherever I had been and was following me. I noticed that she seemed to want to accompany me and after thinking about it briefly allowed her into his backyard (obviously in hindsight a terrible decision). We were standing still a meter or two from each other talking, as we had been doing for 30 seconds or so. She had to follow me about 40 meters to get to the back shed. It was all open space, she was not confined. Though concentrating on the conversation, I was vaguely aware that she was sniffing around the perimeter of the grassed area in the low bushes.

4. I understand that this isn't her fault, she has had an absolutely rotten life to date. We have spent an awful lot of time (we both work from home) patting her, reassuring her, feeding her scraps of steak, buying fresh bones, taking her out on occasion. We can't really play with her, because she was never taught to chase a ball or a stick and all "puppy" has left her, not surprisingly. She just doesn't know what to do with toys, even when she sees other dogs playing she's never cottoned on to how it all works.

5. I agree 95% with the positive reinforcement method, but feel that under certain circumstances (like when the dog is trying to chew the neighbours leg off and making a return trip to continue) a treat is not going to cut it and assertive commands (which she is familiar with) and a harsh, guttural tone of voice are appropriate. I wasn't screaming, I used a low, guttural tone as I've read that you should use a high soft voice when praising and a lower voice when commanding and a guttural, deep voice when you really need a message to get across. I have had a bit of experience training dogs (personally, not professionally) and once rescued a 6 month old pup from the pound, a german shepherd x labrador who had been I suspect frightfully abused. He had wounds and fur missing from what I expect were whip marks and was always petrified of fireworks, car backfires. He was thin and would always, his whole life eat until he vomited, though he wasn't thin for long after I had him He was extremely fearful and cowered when you went to pat him which just broke my heart. He wasn't toilet trained and took to doing his business in the back bedroom on the carpet. Anyway, with all these obstacles, after 2 years he was a completely different dog, toilet trained, affectionate, protective, loyal, obedient and above all trustworthy. The only thing I couldn't rehabilitate was the compulsion to eat and steal food. Anyway, I guess I am trying to convince you that I'm not completely ignorant about dog training, though I have only seen one or two of VSs shows and don't know her methods and that really love animals and would never abuse them. I am quite upset that some or all of you think I have, however, I will not tolerate a dog threatening or harming me or my neighbours. We unfortunately have to work within the emotional environment that her owner has set up and yes, she is almost always only obedient out of fear, but that is surely marginally better than a complete lack of obedience? I feel that we have earnt this dog's respect through our actions over the past year, if she were capable of giving it and not already too damaged. I am afraid I firmly believe that dogs need to know when they have done something wrong and by her behaviour I think she was still "in the moment" and knew that what she had done was bad. I felt it necessary to reinforce that and I am sorry if some or all of you feel that this was cruel or abuse, but dogs are very powerful animals and very much capable of badly injuring or killing someone and I felt that some action was necessary and that this was appropriate. I don't know if anyone can suggest a different but more effective course of action I could have taken? I can't really think of anything effective myself, but would love to hear of any effective alternatives.

I understand she usually obeys out of fear, especially of her owner, but we have done what we can to reassure her that we would never hurt her (beyond a couple of seconds of transient pain, more embarassment than anything else when she has been seriously badly behaved). I understand that dogs have a very limited repertoire and she would not "understand" what we told her but (and you might not agree with this, or perhaps think I'm a bit crazy, but anyway) I believe that they DO understand our intention if it is strong enough, so I use words as a tool to help me feel strong emotion in the hope that the dog will also feel it. Ok that sounds really crazy when you write it down, but it's alway worked for me in the past

Wow, this is getting long... I am going to post it and start a new one and gather my thoughts. Thank you all so much for your time and advice, I really do appreciate it. Something needs to be done about this behaviour and I feel at the moment that a year's worth of positive reinforcement training and all the time and effort has just been completely wasted.

[belrose]

Oh god it just told me 3 x that the server failed while loading ... so sorry, I'll try and delete a couple if I can, otherwise, is there a moderator who can?

[emmabeth]

Ill delete the extra posts, in future copy your post content before sending and then manually come back to the thread (rather than refreshing or resending, go back to the main index, back into this area, back into the thread and see if your post is there, most times it will be, if not you have it copied and can paste it into a new reply window).


Ok - it doesnt matter how hard you hit her, the fact is you know she will pee herself in fear at the slightest HINT of any aggro from humans... Just think how horrid life would be if that was you, scared of life itself and peeing yourself all the time...

Punishing in this way is not effective nor useful, moving away from the abusive issue, its NOT going to achieve the results you want and moreover.... its actually going to make the problem harder to solve.

There is NEVER a reason to yell at a dog or take a nasty tone with them AFTER the event has occurred. Ill grant you, in an emergency situation to PREVENT something from occurring... then its excusable - but if you train using positive, reward based methods youll find you dont need to. Basically what im saying is that 1 time out of 100 to stop a dog running in front of a car or into the jaws of a bigger dog, maybe... but to base a training regime on it... no.

All it will achieve is a loss of trust and confidence in the handler and that is what breeds aggressive fearful reactionary responses in dogs - training that way MAKES dangerous dogs.

To move on - well first you have to decide are you going to take responsiblity for this dog, because she doesnt belong to you. If not, theres little you can do (whether thats your choice or whether you are prevented from doing so by her real owner).

If you are... its a long term committment. I appreciate shes a difficult case and up until now it is not you who is responsible for her behaviour. From now on though assuming you choose this (and at least until her owner returns to take responsibility for her) it is..

So you make sure shes not near other people - it doesnt matter if shes unprovoked or if shes provoked really if she bites... she could end up dead. Make it your job to see she doesnt get the opportunity - prevention IS better than cure, and its not just asticking plaster either - the less times she has to act aggressively the less that will be her first tool out of the box in a time of crisis.

Right now, the old adage 'practice makes perfect' is painfully apt - the more you cling on to the belief that she needs to know shes done wrong, treat her in a way that makes her pee herself, and allow her to be in situations she cant handle, the more chances she gets to perfect being a canine sniper and biting people.

Protecting herself against a percieved threat is not wrong and you will NEVER achieve teaching her that it is - its a basic instinct common to us all to protect ourselves when we think we are in danger (though its weaker in us humans than practically any other species!)..

Instead, change her perception of these things - you can teach her that something she once thought was scary, is in fact nice. You can teach her to want to be with people and listen and heed waht people ask of her, because it brings her rewards.

You cannot teach her to stop being a terrier, and ditch thousands of years of evolution and specific breeding for the trait to defend herself against percieved danger!

Think about each situation and think realy hard about what SHE laerns from it - not what you THINK or HOPE she will learn... what she ACTUALLY learns.

She perceives certain body language and vocal tones as threatening - you hitting her, regardless of how hard, taught her that this was correct.

So after chance to reflect upon that, she reacted by warning you to stay away from her, because now you are more scary than just needing a 'smile'... you need a growl to keep you away.. and did that work... or did you further back up her belief that she MUST make you back off by getting aggressive with her again (body language, voice.. whatever)... yep you did.

If youd have gone out back that time she growled at you... and youd not given her any eye contact at all, you walked in an arc around her and dropped pieces of tasty chicken.. what would she have learned about you then?

She would have learned that good things come from you... and you would be on the first step of the ladder to becoming someone she wants to be with and work for.

Do not fall into the trap of escalating the aggression, if she growls accept YOU pushed too far, and dont push so far next time. It takes two to have an argument or a fight... and ultimately the end result of fighting with a dog is that the dog will die. Its up to you to demonstrate that humans can be nice to be around, and to teach her trust and confidence in you.... and then in herself.

She cant make the first move - she is after all only a dog!

[emmabeth]

Gah - i rambled on and this is my fault.. so missed out something i wanted to say!

Its going to take far more than buying her bones and toys and treats and taking her for walks to prove to her that humans are nice.

Shes no concept of money or the time taken to prepare a nice meal - you have GOT to understand how she learns and what things are going to 'show' her that you are trustable - you cant force it, you cant get her by the ears and say 'im never going to hurt you' and have her understand!

Exercise is a great step - make sure shes not overfaced by new situations but as long as you are seeing improvements in her behaviour then its likely its not stressing her out.
Stressful situations would be really busy places, having her on a lead where lots of loose dogs run upto her, where she feels trapped.

Take a look at the Jean Donaldson video links in the stickied thread at the top of the forum area, they show a lot of dog body language and how to interpret it - some of it is obvious and a lot is less so. For instance panting and wagging could mean a happy dog tired out after a game... Or it could mean a stressed dog about to defend itself by biting! Subtle nuances ...

Acess to lots of toys - she must NEVER have these taken from her when shes got them. That teaches her that you want to steal her stuff and she must defend it.

Instead, teach her to swap, boring toy for great toy, boring toy for really tasty kibble, interesting toy for fantastic piece of chicken... etc etc.

NEVER assume that by taking something and giving it back you are showing her that you will give her things back - dog brains dont work that way. She focusses on the 'you took it'... and the 'you gave it back' is far far less important. (Test this on your partner... steal a slice of pizza from their plate as they are about to take a bite... then give it back. Which action was more important o them. Steal $50 out of your partners purse... then give it back - which is more important?.... you bet its the taking of something that doesnt belong to you that figures FAR more highly than the giving back!)


That is a good example of how we can think we are showing or teaching a dog something... and i nfact we are teaching them something entirely different. (and we are complex beings because we THINK that giving something back shows fairness and trust but even to us the taking of a belonging without permission is actually a more meaningful event!).

Dogs dont do gratitude - never mind what Disney says. So you are nicer to her than her owner is, an dyou do more for her - great, you can have MY gratitude and im impressed, a lot of people wouldnt.

But hers... she just hasnt the mental capacity for that, shes NEVER going to say 'thankyou for buying me that steak i know it means you care for me'... Never going to happen.

Instead, get your kicks from watching her relax, note the things she doesnt do now that 'happy' dogs do... gradually she will start to do those, her face will light up when you come home and she will want to be with you when you pick up a clicker and a bag of treats, she will turn herself inside out to figure out what makes you hand out a cookie...

She is going to appreciate and respond better, if you take off pressure. Dont do direct eye contact, dont give harsh toned commands that she miiiiiight not really understand, dont tower over her and yell..

Avoid eye contact, move around slowly and softly, speak in a higher pitch and quieter, rain treats upon her when she gets something even NEARLY right...

Backing off he confrontation and the fear and allowing her to find you rewarding (carry loads of treats round in your pockets, a real mix of stuff like jerky and cheese and chicken and kibble, and each time you walk past her, ignoring her, looking the other way.. drop something tasty nearby her. Each time you say her name couple it with a treat, each time you do ANYTHING with her couple it with a treat.... but dont bribe her out of her comfort zone, dont try to encourage her out of her depth because that will set her up to fail, and you already know her failures involve aggression.


I do agree that dogs should not be permitted to bite people, as for threatening well it depends entirely on how you view it.

If you insist on reading a lip curl or a snarl as 'rude nasty' and a bad thing then i can see why you dont want to see it.

I dont want to see it, but for another reason - to me it is part of a dogs communication toolbox, i want my dogs to feel free to use the things in that toolkit - if my dog is able to tell me when he feels threatened, in pain, fearful for whatever reason, then *I* can learn something, about him, about the situation...

For example today my deerhound ***** bit me. She warned me that she would, but i had no option but to carry on doing waht i was doing.

Now shes a big dog, and i dont have even as much as a scratch - why is that?

I was removing a nasty little matt of fur from her groin - she warned me that it was sore and painful, and I know this (ill get to that in a moment). I had to carry on removing that matt, because her licking at it was making it worse, so i did it carefully, but a couple of times i must have tweeked a hair too hard and she bit my hand, very gently but with a low 'grr'..

Would you have yelled at her... would you have stopped to question why?

I KNOW why, shes warning me taht it hurts and shes every reason to do so - two days ago she had emergency surgery and her belly is full of stitches and VERY sore - she was telling me just how sore it was and to be careful.

Should she not be allowed to communicate that with me... would it be better if shed stayed totally silent the entire time, and i hadnt had any means of tracking how painful unpicking the matt out ofher fur was...

That kind of thing results in people being very badly bitten - expecting and teaching a dog never to lip curl or growl or mouth results in dogs who still FEEL fearful and pain and threatened and anxious... but have no way of telling you. These truly are the dogs who will bite without warning.

The other reason of course that she didnt take my hand right off (and this is a dog who can bite clean through a turkey leg without thinking about it).... is because Ive taught her how hard is acceptable contact with teeth on human skin, and i have NEVER reacted badly to her communications, ive never done anything i havent had to, ive never hurt her or frightened her.... so she trusts me, and she remembers the lessons ive taught her... and i can do something painful to a dog large enough to remove my hand and remain unscathed.

I doubt this dog has been taught bite inhibition, thats not your fault. There ARE alternatives though, instead of pointlessly trying to teach a dog human social rules, you teach them an appropriate behaviour instead.

Instead of trying to teach 'dont do that'... you teach 'this is rewarding in this situation'. So you dont have to teach 'bouncing on the Vicars head is wrong'.... because you have taught 'sitting nicely when the vicar is here = treats'.

Dogs dont do right and wrong by our standards - attempting to teach them this is a flat out waste oftime. Teach them what you DO want them to do rather than what you dont.

And punishment after the fact doesnt work - its bloody useless on people and we CAN reason and justify and all the other clever human brain stuff.

Dogs can do none of that!

[belrose]

Okay, here we go again.

Nettle, I've never seen her escalate through growl-snarl-airsnap-light bite-severe bite, although my other flatmate did mention last night when we told him, that she has growled at him before, when her owner was around. I personally, have never seen her do any of the above, although she is VERY aggressive at the dog through the back fence (different neighbour, have never actually met the dog) and we always tell her NO and chastise her when we catch her doing it. She stops and walks away, though she doesn't look happy about it.

This bite really did seem to come out of nowhere, to me. Yes, I'm sure I missed some body language or signal, but I truly believe it was unprovoked and definitely unjustified. You shouldn't have to be acutely aware of your dog every minute, anticipating them biting someone badly. I've never even seen Gemma nip anyone before, but this bite was serious ... it will take several weeks to heal. The neighbour would have been quite within his moral and legal rights to call the council and ask for the dog to be put down, I believe. We are lucky we have a good relationship with them, and they are very nice people.

This dog has learned that people attack him without reason. There he is being a dog and suddenly he gets screamed at and struck. Presently he decides that warning people not to do this is the way to stay safe. But when he warns, he is attacked on an escalating scale. So his warnings escalate through growl-snarl-airsnap-light bite-severe bite.

Are you talking here about his owner or what I did Nettle? When she bit Pete, the neighbour, there was no growl or anything beforehand, she just came screaming up behind him from down the garden and bit him, then I think continued on her way a few meters.

Fundog, I agree completely with everything you say. We feel so sorry for her, but don't really know what we can do, other than what we do try and do for her. I have insisted that her owner treat her regularly with Frontline for the fleas, which must help a little but ... he feeds her regularly, provides her with water, shelter, some degree of affection ... the extreme "basics". It isn't *obviously* a case of neglect. On the surface it looks like he cares for her adequately. I had thought of contacting the RSPCA, some time ago, but when I thought about it, I just didn't think it was clear cut enough. There were too many grey areas. The tale of her being kicked is just hearsay (although it was her owner who told me), he hasn't been violent to her in my presence (or heaven help him). He is so oblivious to the distress she is in. She compulsively nibbles herself, her hocks, her haunches, the stump of her tail, she has two strips of hair missing along either side of her spine where she has rubbed or chewed too much. Her stomach is red from her dragging herself along the carpet to scratch it. He just doesn't SEE the agitation and the fear. He thinks he is a good dog owner. He thinks that how he has trained her is the right way to do it. He is actually a very gentle person (I know, six people have just fallen off their computer chairs in disbelief) he is polite, seems like a fairly sensitive, delicate natured fellow. This behaviour seems so out of character, that I assume it is largely due to a lack of information.

Ok, next, emmabeth. Most of the things you say I've tried to answer haphazardly in what I've already said. Neighbour was not a stranger, fair bit of prior contact, she was not threatened or trapped. I had no reason to expect her to be so aggressive. This was not a little nip. There was no warning (certainly no growl) she just came running up from behind and bit him, taking a good chunk out of his leg. I feel sure she has some deep mental problems, no doubt caused by her treatment, but I've never seen her be aggressive towards a human before (the dog over the back fence is another story, but they've never "met").

I'm sorry but I do disagree that what we did was abuse, although I am more than willing to listen to alternatives in case it happens again. My priority is the safety of myself, family and neighbourhood and Gemma's "feelings" come a distinct second to that if she behaves as she did. Yes, she was frightened, and we exacerbated it, but I still don't know what alternative method might have been better. We weren't "yelling" at her. We just used a firm, low voice to indicate that we were not happy with what she did. It's hard for me to describe and for you all to understand exactly what happened. Such a shame I didn't have the foresight to video the whole event! I would love to be able to review the 20 seconds before the attack and observe more closely what happened. It just seemed to come so totally out of the blue. I actually suspect that she may have a bladder problem, as in addition to peeing herself often when the slightest bit excited, when we walk her (and are around to notice) she pees very frequently. Even when we are relaxing in the backyard, giving tummy rubs to her and the cat, she pees a lot ... small amounts frequently. I have decided to insist when my flatmate returns that we all go to the vet with Gemma and discuss what has happened, her prior treatment (abuse) and possible medication and behaviour modification (owner) as the situation as it is, cannot continue.

Re your advice ...

1/ If she growls at me walk away from her ? and think about what I did to warrant it. It hasn't happened since, but, how is opening the back screen door in order to walk out warranting a growl? She was at the bottom of the steps (it's a landing, then 3 stairs at a right angle) and could easily have moved away if she felt threatened. We walk out the back door innumerable times a day! It's not new, it's not previously been considered a threat ... usually she's there wanting to come in. This felt like she was trying to bail me up inside the house and identify the backyard as HER territory, if she wasn't allowed in the house anymore. Isn't walking away from her if she's growling proving to her that growling is an acceptable way to get what she wants? And doesn't it make me submissive to her?

I've never made her growl before at all and I don't think walking out my back door is cause to make her growl either.

There is no way in HELL she's coming inside the house with that kind of behaviour. Sorry, but it's not going to happen. She can have her happy place outside, but if she threatens me or other people, she does not get the priviledge of being inside. The backyard is plenty secure. She can't get out if the gates are shut. There are 6 foot high fences which she's never jumped, probably can't. My cat is 16 years old and I no longer feel comfortable have Gemma around her unsupervised. She is somebody else's dog, my primary concern is for the safety and welfare of my family including the cat. I've felt for a while that Gemma is jealous of the cat as she gets treated so much better, so much more love and affection, petting, better food etc. I would be mortified if the dog attacked the cat out of jealousy.
We have spent the last year following the rest of the advice you gave (except clicker training, I don't know what it is, I'll look it up, but I don't think i will start retraining a dog from scratch who is over 6 years old and not my dog to begin with). I've always trained my animals with positive methods 95% of the time, but in addition to that, if they are doing something I don't want them to do, I feel saying "NO" or "LEAVE" or "DROP" etc is beneficial and complements that. Of course it's good to know when you are doing something right, but surely the other side of that coin is that it helps to know when you are doing something "wrong" or undesirable.

UPDATE:I have decided to insist when my flatmate returns that we all go to the vet with Gemma and discuss what has happened, her prior treatment (abuse) and possible medication and behaviour modification (owner) as the situation as it is, cannot continue. I'll also bring up the peeing thing and the OCD nibbling business.

This morning, Gemma seemed so nervous when I went out, after reading all your posts and feeling upset that you all think I abused her reprimanding her, I went and patted her for a bit and resumed more normal behaviour with her, rather than not permitting her near any of us for safety. She calmed down considerably, but is more skittish than she had been the first week her owner was away, more like how she was when he first moved in. Her trust level, does not appear to have changed considerably to prior to the incident. She still comes up for pats, squats down for you to rub her back and haunches, rolls over when she's had enough of that, for a tummy rub, then gets up, runs around one of the trees and comes back for more.

OK this is getting long and rambly too so I'll wind up for now. Thank you again to everyone who replied, I am very very grateful for them time and effort you spent in giving me this advice and I have/will read through it all carefully, several times and think deeply on everything that has been said. I haven't taken offence at anything that's been said, although I was quite hurt at the thought that we abused her too, but in thinking over what we did, I still don't know what else I could have effectively done. I really would love to hear what alternative course of action people would recommend. I've never been in a position before where a dog has been like this. Generally with a lot of love and affection, guidelines and boundaries and walks/games etc it's dead easy and they are just a beautiful part of the family. It's very different when it's not your dog and they've been treated like this.

Anyway, thank you all and I hope you will continue to share your wisdom with me. It's really not her fault she's like this, but I wonder what are the chances she can be rehabilitated at her age and with her owner still in her life...

[belrose]

Hi Emmabeth,

I've just read through your marathon post ... thank you again for going to all this trouble, I really appreciate it. And I can tell you have a lot of experience, even if I don't (perhaps yet) agree with all of it.

I'm just going to read through it again a few more times before replying, there's a lot of interesting info there, but first, there's just one thing, I don't understand:

If you insist on reading a lip curl or a snarl as 'rude nasty' and a bad thing then i can see why you dont want to see it.

I understand lip curl or snarl is just communication and whether or not I considered it bad would depend on the context. I too have had large animals and been able to do things to them that they probably don't understand but need to be done. I've always trained them to nuzzle or lick my hand instead of bite, but so long as she didn't hurt you, then it's about the same thing I guess. I just prefer to draw a definite line, I think it would be easier for an animal to understand that way.

Anyway, "I can see why you don't want to see it" .. I don't quite understand what you mean. I could only see the dog in my peripheral vision, I was looking at Peter as I was talking to him. Are you talking about why I didn't see gemma going to bite Pete?

Also, before I go, in answer to your question about how much responsibility I am willing to take ... I don't really know. I can say for certain that I do not want to own Gemma, personally, but I also know that her owner would not want to give her up ... he thinks he's a good dog owner and sees her as an asset... he talks about the amount she's cost him in food, vet bills etc as being her value. Totally screwed up I know. I don't feel the desire to take ownership of her myself as she's not a young dog, there's a lot to be remedied and I prefer large dogs anyway. I already have a cat! I don't need a cat in dog's clothing Sorry if anyone thinks that's shallow, it's just a personal preference. If I was going to have another dog, I would not get a small one.

I do feel a lot of compassion for her and prior to this incident have tried as much as I can to make her life a little better. I firmly believe that a dog should be walked every day, that they need 1:1 time with their owner (or in this case me as a substitute) to know that they are cared for and that this time is all about them and having fun. I am happy to keep walking her and feeding her little tidbits now and then ... if it is going to have a positive result. From my perspective at the moment, all I can see is a year of this going down the drain and having no effect whatsoever and in fact escalating without warning to a completely new behaviour and from her being, the week prior, the happiest and calmest I have ever seen her.

Gosh and I said this was going to be a short post!! This is a complicated issue.

[emmabeth]

I think you need to seperate out the feelings from the training here...

Whats coming across is 'she needs to know she did wrong', 'she doesnt get xyz priviledge because she did wrong'...

These things wont help, ive already been over how you cant teach her that a human moral, social ideal is or isnt..

What you can do is prevent it occurring, by management in the first instance and by training her to do something else in the second.

The whole 'shes not coming in the house because' - well management wise thats preventing something occurring, but is it the best management strategy? It probably isnt, because she cant learn to chill out and relax and that you are rewarding people to be around, if shes not around you.

If thats the management strategy you need to take for whatever reason, fair enough, but dont make it 'revenge' or 'punishment' or '*** for tat' because those very negative, confrontational feelings will, absolutely WILL stop you from effectively training and teaching her to be a nicer, happier, more predictable dog.

How do i deal with a dog who is growling for 'no reason' - i go away and see if i can figure out either what that reason is... (go, shut the door, look out of the window is there something out there, is she sat by some valued item)... or 'change the subject'... so leave the door open, go get me a snack from the fridge, doggy comes in, i go out, doggy follows me as i have snacks - everyones a winner.

What i DONT do is confront the dog and escalate the aggression, and i think about what happened and why and maybe it is just a one off or maybe theres something more going on that i can learn from and deal with better, or differently, and hopefully avoid a 'next time'.

Long term yes if you do something that makes a dog growl and then you back off, the dog can learn that growling is what she ought to do. But we arent talking long term here, we are talking dealing with a unexpected problem there and then.

Long term we think how do i avoid triggering a fearful defensive response in this dog, how do i achieve what i want.... without coercion or fear.

Has she continued to growl at you when you open the door to go outside to her, if not then it was a one off, probably to do with the incident in the back yard.

As far as the escalation of communicating fear, warning.... it doesnt in dogs like this, happen one after the other.

5 and a half YEARS ago, this dog probably did go through freeze and stare, lip curl, bigger lip curl, snarl, growl, growl louder, growl with all teeth showing ears flat back.... bite.

NOW... shes had how many years of being punished for displaying any and all of those things. So now she shows only some of them - ironically its probably a good thing her owner thinks the snarly teeth showing is a smile... she can still display some of her thinking before she actually bites.

As far as WHY she bit your neighbour, believe us she had a reason - what that reason IS may well not be justified to YOUR mind, you are a human after all - you dont chase tennis balls frantically but I doubt youd argue that theres no valid reason for a DOG to want to do so..

Their perception of things is different to ours, even just her height will affect taht - go on get down to her level one day and see just how much more scary someone is when you view them from 18" off the ground, looking up at them.

She may have misinterpreted something he did, he may have moved just so with the shadows falling in a certain way and it looked to HER as if it was a squirrel... who knows, we will never know.

For sure however, she did not just think 'ooh.. ill just bite him for shits and giggles'.

What you can do, (and i mean the generic you, this is after all not really your problem) is de-fuse the timebomb that she is..you can lengthen her fuse, soften her reactions, teach her different ways of dealing with life.

When shes chilled out and is confident in herself and the people around her, no you wont need to watch her body language at all times - right NOW though you do, you know the way she thinks and percieves things is leading to her biting. Shes done it once so you are now aware of it - until such time as she IS less nervous and more at ease, she will need watching and it is up to the humans she lives with to ensure shes NOT put into a situation where she can make a mistake.

This is only like not putting a toddler who likes to fiddle with things alone in a room with uncovered sockets, plugged in toasters and a handful of handy screwdrivers... you keep them safe and set them upto get things right, not leave them to make their own choices and risk failure!

Then she wont do the wrong things, and she will live happily ever after not knowing or caring about human ideas on right and wrong.

Oh - compulsively biting at herself could be an allergy, to grass or dust mites or food or fleas (even if shes regularly treated for them, one bite can set off a bad reaction) - OR it can be stress and anxiety, boredom can be a big trigger for this kind of behaviour as well so keeping her brain working at various rewarding tasks is key, and reducing her stress levels in other ways. Being itchy all over, constantly is a very good reason for being antsy and reactive and defensively aggressive. (ask anyone with extremely bad excema!)

If this dog were my responsibility, i would teach her to enjoy spending time in an indoor crate, placeing it somewhere she would seek out as a refuge from scary triggers in every day life and teaching her hat it is a place to relax and chill out in, enjoy treats and chews etc... That would give me somewhere safe to put her when anything likely to trigger her aggressive behaviour was going to happen.

I would set up baby gates at strategic points to safeguard the cat (though if shes never chased the cat theres no reason to suggest she suddenly would now).

Then id clicker train her, simple things to start with working up to harder things - and in the time shes not being walked or trained, feed her from a Kong toy or similar food dispensing toy so taht she has to work for her food, and devise other mentally stimulating games (scattering dry food outside, making destruction boxes out of cardboard boxes and old newspaper and bits of kibble and toys).

In doing all these things and keeping an eye on not putting her in situations she may make a mistake in, shes going to have very little time to itch at herself, or carry out previous unhealthy behavioural patterns. Shes going to be bombarded with rewarding experiences and have little to no opportunity to behave as she previously did.

[belrose]

Hi Emmabeth,

Great analogy with the toys/pizza/money thing that was really funny, but I definitely get the point.

I'm just about to take Gemma for a walk and give her another chance (not to eat the neighbour, but at our normal routine for her), so I'll be brief (if I'm capable of it ) Gemma has NO toys. She doesn't seem to want any/know what to do with them ... so I don't think that part of your advice will be any help to her, unfortunately. Tennis balls, sticks, squeaky toys are all boring to her, she has no clue what to do with them I suspect because she was never played with as a puppy and she has no puppy left in her at all. I'm not just referring to her age. My 16 year old cat will still play with a moving stick or piece of grass. She still has some "kitten" left in her.

Anyway, I'm off to the dog park now and I'm going to throw caution to the wind and let her off the leash (assuming nothing untoward happens on the 15-20 minute walk there) as usual and see what happens.

I'll check back in when I get home.

[cheesehawk]

Sorry, there's a lot of info on this topic, but I seem to have missed one thing. Has anyone (yourself or the neighbor) reported that this dog bit someone? I think that is an important step that needs to be taken. The dog may be retrainable, but without some sort of documented incident, will your mate really understand the severity of the need to get this dog trained properly?

[belrose]

cheesehawk,

No, the incident has not yet been reported. It's a long weekend here and although I've read up on the legal requirements I have not yet made a decision to report the incident or not. I discussed it with the neighbour this evening and he did not think it was necessary. He's been really really really good about this, all things considered. His wife had her ankle mauled by their staffy? I think many years ago fairly badly - his jaw locked and she had to go to hospital for stitches, cast etc and was on crutches for some time and the dog had to be put down, unfortunately as they had very small children at the time.

I have also been wracking my brain for what could have possibly triggered the attack. As emmabeth said, did he move slightly (she is very nervous of feet). Pete's recollection is different to mine, in that he said he was about to pass me the wheelbarrow and might have just moved his foot to step forward (which would have been away from the dog, but nevertheless moving). His wife was the first to suggest this may have been the trigger. I feel so blessed to have neighbours like these 2. Had they wanted Gemma put to sleep I would have had a very hard time arguing against that course of action.

I've just gotten back from the park so I'll give everyone an update next...