HELP! Dogsitting - Dog Bit my Neighbour UNPROVOKED
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
UPDATE: I was feeding the cat some strips of meat for dinner ... handfeeding she is so spoilt, but she's old and she hasn't been eating well lately ... and Gemma came up to investigate what was going on ... I looked over as she was sniffing the cats bowl which still had a bit of blood left in the bottom and she immediately looked guilty and got nervous and jumpy and fidgety and started backing away. So I called her over (come) and rewarded her with verbal praise and a little bit of the beef strips. Then I decided (as she was a lot more interested in this food) that now might be a good time to try some training/rewarding as you folks have recommended. We spent about 10-15 minutes doing come/reward, come / sit reward, then come/sit/drop reward which was a bit more challenging but she finally got the idea that if she stayed 'dropped' I just fed her steak while repeating "drop" and a dog could really get used to this. She seemed pretty happy with the whole experience and followed me around for a bit afterward to see if any more steak might drop from the sky. She's had chicken necks out all day for her, but she hasn't eaten them (apparently she usually will eat a kilo of them during a day). She seems to have been pretty seriously off her food while her owner has been away, though she doesn't appear to have lost weight.
I've been following this thread with interest and am hoping for the best for you and Gemma and everyone involved with rehabilitating and training this dog. I'm going to jump in and just say that Cesar's methods have been debated ad-nauseum on this board (do a search and you'll find many threads). I think about 95% of the board are anti-Cesar - at least his methods. And while periodically someone brings him up and a thread lasts for several pages debating the validity of his methods, I think what many people following your story can agree on is that regardless of what anyone thinks of Cesar, his methods are probably not the way to go with this dog as she's already so fearful.
I myself watch his program and more and more I end up doing so just so I can play "How would Victoria's methods have worked for this dog?" With Gemma, stick with positive reinforcement, stick with gentle methods. Cesar's methods are way too harsh for this little girl.
You don't know me as I haven't joined this conversation until now, but I'm willing to put money down that everyone who has been responding to you thus far will tell you the same thing.
Best of luck!
I myself watch his program and more and more I end up doing so just so I can play "How would Victoria's methods have worked for this dog?" With Gemma, stick with positive reinforcement, stick with gentle methods. Cesar's methods are way too harsh for this little girl.
You don't know me as I haven't joined this conversation until now, but I'm willing to put money down that everyone who has been responding to you thus far will tell you the same thing.
Best of luck!
Cesars methods sound wonderful and a lot of what he says is ok or even right... for instance being calm and confident around your dog is a good thing (dogs pick up many cues on how to behave from our own behaviour, we act skittish and fearful so will they, we act aggressive and snappy, so will they..), and exercise is important for dogs too a great many dogs Cesar sees get little to no exercise...
BUT - he is a master of saying one thing and DOING entirely another, and misdescribing what the dog is doing. Its like a magician redirecting your eyes away from his hands whilst he vanishes the flowers up his sleeve...
Cesar trains using domineering, bullying, fear, dogs do as he says because they fear HIM above all else and he very very frequently gets bitten. What this does is cause dogs to shut down, which he will describe as 'calm submissive'... but in fact scientists describe as 'learned helplessness', a state of mind whereby their brains shut down they fear that trigger (in this case Cesar himself) above all else and the ability to learn anything positive is gone. The same can be achieved by putting rats in a maze and electrifying the walls and floor - whatever option they choose they get electrocuted they cannot avoid the punishment so they give up everything and stop thinking at all.
Anyone treated like that then finds it much much harder to learn and try out new behaviours (as they fear severe punishment).
BUT - he is a master of saying one thing and DOING entirely another, and misdescribing what the dog is doing. Its like a magician redirecting your eyes away from his hands whilst he vanishes the flowers up his sleeve...
Cesar trains using domineering, bullying, fear, dogs do as he says because they fear HIM above all else and he very very frequently gets bitten. What this does is cause dogs to shut down, which he will describe as 'calm submissive'... but in fact scientists describe as 'learned helplessness', a state of mind whereby their brains shut down they fear that trigger (in this case Cesar himself) above all else and the ability to learn anything positive is gone. The same can be achieved by putting rats in a maze and electrifying the walls and floor - whatever option they choose they get electrocuted they cannot avoid the punishment so they give up everything and stop thinking at all.
Anyone treated like that then finds it much much harder to learn and try out new behaviours (as they fear severe punishment).
Reiki has been sent and I hope it goes well.belrose wrote:Oh Mattie, Thank you that would be very much appreciated. I have done Level II myself and I'm sure it will help in some way. The more light you have around a situation the better the outcome will be guaranteed. It may not always be the outcome you want, because we don't always see the bigger picture, but I firmly believe that it will be a better outcome.
I am a pussy cat reallyYou can't be that bad after all
Unfortunately you can't see our body language, if you could you would get a much better impression of us but if we hadn't been so open with you, you wouldn't be in the position you are now. You have made remarkable progress. You have learnt in a weekend what it has taken years to learn.
When something is as serious as this there is no point in trying not to upset the person who posted, the dog desperately needs help. You needed help as well but if we had pussy footed around you wouldn't have had the help you needed.
You know you have us with you on this, we can't be with you in person but are in spirit so take comfort with that. Whichever way it goes, you have tried your best and done a lot more than most other people would have done for Gemma.I doubt it will be that bad, I'm just not a very confrontational person and I really hate these sort of things. I'd just love to wave a magic wand and have the owner instantly develop the ability to see Gemma as she really is and have some insight into what effect his behaviour has on her. All without me having to say a word would be tops!!But not very likely.
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Ponies_and_Pups
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- Location: South Carolina
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Well I can speak from experience on the Cesar subject because I went head into it after a horrible encounter my dogs had with another in which my pup went right after another dog. I knew it would take baby steps and therefore I started by purchasing the 4dvd, card set and Illusion collar. Well, in all honesty I DID see a HUGE difference in my olderst (3) in that she did have us treating her like a child so just in 2 days of having US get in bed first then INVITE her in, and the same with the way that both of the dogs shot through the doors, I would use the wait, then open, then invite, and mind you I not always went out first but I DID make them wait. Well, the 3 yr old obsessive complusive slightly neurotic dog became a bit more independant and less crawling all over hubby and I.
The Illusion collar still hangs on the door, sadly, I tried it once and correctly, but it scared me half to DEATH. What they DON'T show is that this collar chokes, and chokes badly. By the time the dog lunges forward and you get their attention they are NOT happy and you are having a heart attack LOL.
So, I started working a horse one day and it dawned on me, I don't do this with horses so why do this with my dogs? Ok so step 1, admit to self they are dogs, step 2, realize I can still spoil them but only if I balance it with steady consistant household rules. Dont run out the door when it is opened, don't jump on the bed and take it over until invited then take a spot and be still, it is time to sleep, Don't beg for food, etc.
I had watched Victoria many times before and the lightbulb went off in my head. Ok self, each dog is different, let us take this one dog at a time and one day at a time. Now the neurotic 3 yr old takes small jumps and as of today EVEN did the 4 pole weave off leash, and in NO WAY would she had done this if I had worked her Cesars way. I have been there, I have tried, and I made the switch. Now the 3yr old and 9 mo old are happy and well adjusted girls.
Cheers all,
The Illusion collar still hangs on the door, sadly, I tried it once and correctly, but it scared me half to DEATH. What they DON'T show is that this collar chokes, and chokes badly. By the time the dog lunges forward and you get their attention they are NOT happy and you are having a heart attack LOL.
So, I started working a horse one day and it dawned on me, I don't do this with horses so why do this with my dogs? Ok so step 1, admit to self they are dogs, step 2, realize I can still spoil them but only if I balance it with steady consistant household rules. Dont run out the door when it is opened, don't jump on the bed and take it over until invited then take a spot and be still, it is time to sleep, Don't beg for food, etc.
I had watched Victoria many times before and the lightbulb went off in my head. Ok self, each dog is different, let us take this one dog at a time and one day at a time. Now the neurotic 3 yr old takes small jumps and as of today EVEN did the 4 pole weave off leash, and in NO WAY would she had done this if I had worked her Cesars way. I have been there, I have tried, and I made the switch. Now the 3yr old and 9 mo old are happy and well adjusted girls.
Cheers all,
Actually Mattie, The more I think about it the more I think I am a little like Gemma myself. I respond much better to gentler treatment and messages myself. As a matter of fact, had everyone's messages been more gently delivered, I would have been able to accept them much sooner. As it was I had to make myself read them for Gemma's sake, get through the negative to the wisdom in there and then observe Gemma while my brain was going "they can't be right, they said mean things to me". Simplistic I know, but hey! I think animals and us are a lot more alike than we'd care to acknowledge
I don't know what time her owner is coming home today, but it will be interesting to see what happens when he does. I won't jump him immediately with what's happened, (much as i'd like to) I'll give him a few hours or maybe a day to settle back in after his trip.
Thanks everyone, for their kind wishes.
I had quite a bit of a read of Cesar's website last night. I like a lot of what he says, like being calm and assertive and the dog picking up on the energy of this, being the pack leader, empowering dogs to behave better, that he trains humans and rehabilitates dogs I was a bit put off by some of the videos showing him training, I have to admit. I didn't realise he was such a hot topic around here. I will do a search later on when I have time. I just thought the empowering a fearful dog by teaching her to succeed in lots of little ways and letting her socialise with other dogs, even though it may not be the easiest thing in the world for her, might help her to work her issues out a bit.
I am planning to keep walking her for a couple of hours each evening, even when her owner returns (if he will let me) as she just loves it. It's us who've had enough by 2 - 2 1/2 hours and want to go home, not her ... I think she'd stay there all day! I'm developing a theory that she is much happier on the walk/ at the dog park, because it is a completely new experience and one with new rules. Her owner never walks her, and has never taken her to those areas ... a few acres of enclosed dog park next to many acres of sports fields, so she doesn't seem as fearful there. Maybe she expects bad treatment in the places where she is familiar with being with her owner... Or maybe I'm making it all up who knows.. Just a thought. She does act much differently there though ... more happy than just a dog on a walk she's more trusting in her behavious.
I don't know what time her owner is coming home today, but it will be interesting to see what happens when he does. I won't jump him immediately with what's happened, (much as i'd like to) I'll give him a few hours or maybe a day to settle back in after his trip.
Thanks everyone, for their kind wishes.
I had quite a bit of a read of Cesar's website last night. I like a lot of what he says, like being calm and assertive and the dog picking up on the energy of this, being the pack leader, empowering dogs to behave better, that he trains humans and rehabilitates dogs
I was a bit put off by some of the videos showing him training, I have to admit. I didn't realise he was such a hot topic around here. I will do a search later on when I have time. I just thought the empowering a fearful dog by teaching her to succeed in lots of little ways and letting her socialise with other dogs, even though it may not be the easiest thing in the world for her, might help her to work her issues out a bit. I am planning to keep walking her for a couple of hours each evening, even when her owner returns (if he will let me) as she just loves it. It's us who've had enough by 2 - 2 1/2 hours and want to go home, not her ... I think she'd stay there all day! I'm developing a theory that she is much happier on the walk/ at the dog park, because it is a completely new experience and one with new rules. Her owner never walks her, and has never taken her to those areas ... a few acres of enclosed dog park next to many acres of sports fields, so she doesn't seem as fearful there. Maybe she expects bad treatment in the places where she is familiar with being with her owner... Or maybe I'm making it all up who knows.. Just a thought. She does act much differently there though ... more happy than just a dog on a walk she's more trusting in her behavious.
Ahhhh you are seeing the discrepancies between what CM says...and what he does, already..
Watch some clips with the sound off first and just focus on the dogs body language (and do so after you have watched the jean donaldson body language vids stickied at the top of the forum)..
What he says i cant argue with a fair amount of it - teach them what they ought to do, keep the stress down, be a calm and confident person to be around, provide for their doggy needs because they are dogs, not little furry people....
I disagree with 'pack leader' because the way he means it isnt how a dog views us, but swap the words 'pack leader' for 'respected mentor, teacher, team leader'.... and that gives a better idea of how we should be around our dogs.
Unfortunately CMs training is based around the idea that dogs view humans as an 'alpha pack leader' - which is in turn based on the idea that wolves have and view one wolf as the alpha.
This isnt actually the case (that theory was based on the study of captive wolves and a very small group of them) and even if it was... dogs are a very very long way from wolves these days (because we have selectively bred them for traits that wolves dont have, or if they do, dont keep for very long, for instance the playful puppy behavior and puppylike appearance).
It was thought that an alpha wolf would rigidly control the actions of all subordinate wolves, so the alpha would eat first, go through gaps first, 'lead' the pack from the front and make all the decisions.
In fact this just isnt bourne out by watching any group of wild canid you care to mention...
Its far more like a family group, with two parents and then the rest of the pack is made up of direct offspring and extended family members. Everyone plays to their own strengths, the 'parents' are concerned only directly about themselves, so they may eat first.... and they may warn other pack members off food...
But equally they may well ignore a younger, less physically fit or clever animal diving in and snatching food, and will often tolerate very young animals clambering over them and eating food right out of their mouths, and taking food from whoever they choose.
Thinking rationally if the parents job is to keep the group safe, so ensure food is provided and puppies are produced and taken care of, other animals must be able to fulfill some role some of the time.
If the alpha always eats first, then puppies starve and older less fit wolves starve and then there no offspring... and evne if there was there no extended family to mind the puppies whilst the fit strong young alpha(s) go out to hunt..
So they share roles, when one is away another will adopt that position and when they return go back to their own role..
If the alpha always goes through gaps first.... (or doorways as we would have it in our world)... then surely the alpha is the one kicked in the face by a mare hiding behind a rocky outcrop nursing her foal... or a bear or big cat eating its kill.. That puts the alpha at way too much risk... so common sense says alphas do not do that, a real sensible pack leader is cautious and more likely to send a much less useful pack member out to greet whatever danger may be there!
Theres also very little force, theres no forcibly pinning and admonishing of any subordinate animals, as the theory tells us there is and we should recreate this with the 'alpha roll'... subordinate offer it to appease and only bullies throw their weight around push the subordinates into appeaseing them - real, natural leaders dont need to do that, not in the wolf, dog or human world.
I own a bully dog, hes a dog who has to challenge every dog he meets 'will you submit to me or will you fight me'... the bigger the dog the more he wants to find out. Because he is scared but also because he is a terrier and hed be happier knowing who he can boss around and who he cant.
Out of my group of dogs then, he is not the highest ranking dog, he falls well below my elderly saluki ***** .. BUT, in certain situations he over rides her because in some cases he has more confidence and is more relaxed.
In the house she rules with an iron paw, but the rest will still take their chances and she will let things go if they dont matter to her. (And not much does apart from rowdy games or the risk of her being sat on by a rude dog). In the house then he will not take her on, she is queen.
Outside the house if she tries her game of hunting him, he will and does tell her to get knotted and she respects that. If dogs 'did' rigid heirarchies that couldnt happen...
Currently he is 'second in command' as far as dogs go, in the house - that means that he will control certain interactiosn taht matter to him, though generally like her, hes not bothered by much. Hes not a good leader, he would make a rubbish alpha if such things were to really exist but he has that position purely because the next oldest dog Dilly doesnt care AT ALL about such things (he isa dog to himself an ddoes his own thing and really doesnt give a rats) and then the one after that is an immature *****, despite being three times Rockys height.
Eventually the immature ***** will rise up through the ranks to become the boss - how much of that she does depends on if shes a good boss or a bully boss.. (i wont let her be a bully!) and really importantly... how much she earns the respect of the others.
Abby has their respect, shes easy to be around and fun to play with if they play on her terms. Kelda does not have their respect because shes a pain in the bum and yells at them all the time, very demanding and bossy.
Interestingly, none of that matters in how they relate to me... they all work with me willingly despite their relationships with one another and their own personalities.
I use positive reinforcement on them all, i adapt that method for each dog but its the same training theory for all... just different motivators for each dog (one will work for a squeaky, one for cheese, one for liver, one for fuss and praise, one needs a very high rate of reward and when clicker training, very specific clicking, one doesnt like the clicker so we use hand signals, one is brilliant at free shaping so we do that a lot and another needs to be lured and almost led by the nose to get things right).
Four very different dogs... one method... millions of ways of applying it!
Watch some clips with the sound off first and just focus on the dogs body language (and do so after you have watched the jean donaldson body language vids stickied at the top of the forum)..
What he says i cant argue with a fair amount of it - teach them what they ought to do, keep the stress down, be a calm and confident person to be around, provide for their doggy needs because they are dogs, not little furry people....
I disagree with 'pack leader' because the way he means it isnt how a dog views us, but swap the words 'pack leader' for 'respected mentor, teacher, team leader'.... and that gives a better idea of how we should be around our dogs.
Unfortunately CMs training is based around the idea that dogs view humans as an 'alpha pack leader' - which is in turn based on the idea that wolves have and view one wolf as the alpha.
This isnt actually the case (that theory was based on the study of captive wolves and a very small group of them) and even if it was... dogs are a very very long way from wolves these days (because we have selectively bred them for traits that wolves dont have, or if they do, dont keep for very long, for instance the playful puppy behavior and puppylike appearance).
It was thought that an alpha wolf would rigidly control the actions of all subordinate wolves, so the alpha would eat first, go through gaps first, 'lead' the pack from the front and make all the decisions.
In fact this just isnt bourne out by watching any group of wild canid you care to mention...
Its far more like a family group, with two parents and then the rest of the pack is made up of direct offspring and extended family members. Everyone plays to their own strengths, the 'parents' are concerned only directly about themselves, so they may eat first.... and they may warn other pack members off food...
But equally they may well ignore a younger, less physically fit or clever animal diving in and snatching food, and will often tolerate very young animals clambering over them and eating food right out of their mouths, and taking food from whoever they choose.
Thinking rationally if the parents job is to keep the group safe, so ensure food is provided and puppies are produced and taken care of, other animals must be able to fulfill some role some of the time.
If the alpha always eats first, then puppies starve and older less fit wolves starve and then there no offspring... and evne if there was there no extended family to mind the puppies whilst the fit strong young alpha(s) go out to hunt..
So they share roles, when one is away another will adopt that position and when they return go back to their own role..
If the alpha always goes through gaps first.... (or doorways as we would have it in our world)... then surely the alpha is the one kicked in the face by a mare hiding behind a rocky outcrop nursing her foal... or a bear or big cat eating its kill.. That puts the alpha at way too much risk... so common sense says alphas do not do that, a real sensible pack leader is cautious and more likely to send a much less useful pack member out to greet whatever danger may be there!
Theres also very little force, theres no forcibly pinning and admonishing of any subordinate animals, as the theory tells us there is and we should recreate this with the 'alpha roll'... subordinate offer it to appease and only bullies throw their weight around push the subordinates into appeaseing them - real, natural leaders dont need to do that, not in the wolf, dog or human world.
I own a bully dog, hes a dog who has to challenge every dog he meets 'will you submit to me or will you fight me'... the bigger the dog the more he wants to find out. Because he is scared but also because he is a terrier and hed be happier knowing who he can boss around and who he cant.
Out of my group of dogs then, he is not the highest ranking dog, he falls well below my elderly saluki ***** .. BUT, in certain situations he over rides her because in some cases he has more confidence and is more relaxed.
In the house she rules with an iron paw, but the rest will still take their chances and she will let things go if they dont matter to her. (And not much does apart from rowdy games or the risk of her being sat on by a rude dog). In the house then he will not take her on, she is queen.
Outside the house if she tries her game of hunting him, he will and does tell her to get knotted and she respects that. If dogs 'did' rigid heirarchies that couldnt happen...
Currently he is 'second in command' as far as dogs go, in the house - that means that he will control certain interactiosn taht matter to him, though generally like her, hes not bothered by much. Hes not a good leader, he would make a rubbish alpha if such things were to really exist but he has that position purely because the next oldest dog Dilly doesnt care AT ALL about such things (he isa dog to himself an ddoes his own thing and really doesnt give a rats) and then the one after that is an immature *****, despite being three times Rockys height.
Eventually the immature ***** will rise up through the ranks to become the boss - how much of that she does depends on if shes a good boss or a bully boss.. (i wont let her be a bully!) and really importantly... how much she earns the respect of the others.
Abby has their respect, shes easy to be around and fun to play with if they play on her terms. Kelda does not have their respect because shes a pain in the bum and yells at them all the time, very demanding and bossy.
Interestingly, none of that matters in how they relate to me... they all work with me willingly despite their relationships with one another and their own personalities.
I use positive reinforcement on them all, i adapt that method for each dog but its the same training theory for all... just different motivators for each dog (one will work for a squeaky, one for cheese, one for liver, one for fuss and praise, one needs a very high rate of reward and when clicker training, very specific clicking, one doesnt like the clicker so we use hand signals, one is brilliant at free shaping so we do that a lot and another needs to be lured and almost led by the nose to get things right).
Four very different dogs... one method... millions of ways of applying it!
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Disney Paws
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:37 pm
Disney Paws, no worries, thanks for taking the time to help me learn and sort this out.
Emmabeth, that's very interesting. I have always been led to believe the alpha dog thing. I do still see merit in Cesar's methods ... don't know how much of it could be applied to Gemma ... the only thing really is developing her confidence and interacting with other dogs in the hope that they'll sort her out to some extent, but it's a bit nervewracking, I've got to be constantly on my guard for potential stressors. I very much like the things he says... it may be a case of "do what I say not what I do". I'm trying to track down the videos of both Cesar and Victoria to watch the lot cos we don't get cesar over here (only on cable and I refuse to pay for TV when I hardly ever watch what's on for free) and I've not seen much of Victoria.
I haven't yet worked my way through the body language links you gave me ... my internet isn't buffering well at the moment and I've only watched the first couple.
Emmabeth, that's very interesting. I have always been led to believe the alpha dog thing. I do still see merit in Cesar's methods ... don't know how much of it could be applied to Gemma ... the only thing really is developing her confidence and interacting with other dogs in the hope that they'll sort her out to some extent, but it's a bit nervewracking, I've got to be constantly on my guard for potential stressors. I very much like the things he says... it may be a case of "do what I say not what I do". I'm trying to track down the videos of both Cesar and Victoria to watch the lot cos we don't get cesar over here (only on cable and I refuse to pay for TV when I hardly ever watch what's on for free) and I've not seen much of Victoria.
I haven't yet worked my way through the body language links you gave me ... my internet isn't buffering well at the moment and I've only watched the first couple.
I wouldnt have a problem if people just did some of the stuff CM says..
When you have watched some of his clips, consider why the dogs he handles react the way the do to: his 'shht' noise, his 'foot touch' and his 'finger prod'..
What they dont show you (And in fairness no dog training tv show CAN show you everything that is done, there just isnt time).. is the process by which the dogs learn what those three things mean.
In my experience and in the experience of trainers and behaviourists with many more years experience than me... those dogs react the way they do because whilst the 'shht' or the finger prod or the foot touch you see on the actual show is usually fairly mild... the ones they were conditioned to off camera were not.
This isnt anything new and CM is far from the first person to do this - common choke chain training method use this, initially the word 'heel' is applied almost immediately followed with a sharp jerk or 'pop' on the chain when the dog gets out of the heel position. Over time the dog learns that the word heel means 'sharp jerk in neck coming' and so it avoids it by slackening off the leash.
What the dog then learns is that the sound of the chain tightening up is going to preceed the word heel, which preceeds the yank in the neck, so then the sound becomes the trigger to avoid the punishment.
To some degree and applied effectively and consistently, this method will have some success, however..
Its very hard to apply effectively and consistently.
To do so can and does cause physical damage to a lot of dogs.
To use it on many dogs (tiny dogs, puppies, dogs with long more fragile necks) would probably kill them.
Constantly using the avoidance of punishment actively stops a dog from seeking to learn (shuts them down)
The basic principle of using pain and the avoidance of punishment to train is an unpleasant and morally bad thing to do.
There are much more effective and easier methods to apply correctly and consistently.
There are much more humane and morally 'nice' methods to use.
So even if sometimes training using punishment can appear to work, when there is nicer, more effective and less risky option out there.. why not employ it.
I have to admit, CM makes me very angry, because on the face of it and especially to people new to dog training, what he says DOES sound brilliant, awesome, fantastic...
What you see and whats really going on are two very different things though - for instance people claim they have turned to Cesar as a last resort, if you could quiz them though you would find that they perhaps tried a training class once, or read a book and had a go for a week and werent consistant so gave up.... waited months, applied to be on the TV because ... whatever reason that makes folks want to be on 'reality tv'...
And in fact this last resort or they are going to have to have the dog put down/rehomed/etc... is nothing of the kind.
Its usually their FIRST resort after years of ignoring a problem or half heartedly fannying about and not sticking to anything.
Its no different on many tv shows, I know in the UK victoria had some people who really.. just wanted to be on tv, and though she showed them how to solve their problems with their dog, they werent really interested in actually doing the work. Shame for the dog but sadly there are a million and one dog owners out there like that!
I know a lot of trainers in the uk who spend a lot of time every week, cleaning up the mess people make attempting to train dogs the 'cesar' way (and the dog borstal way and going further back, the barbara woodhouse way....and so on). It looks like a magical cure but there are no magic cures...just clever camera work and a man with a winning smile, a great PR manager and some very devious tricks.
When you have watched some of his clips, consider why the dogs he handles react the way the do to: his 'shht' noise, his 'foot touch' and his 'finger prod'..
What they dont show you (And in fairness no dog training tv show CAN show you everything that is done, there just isnt time).. is the process by which the dogs learn what those three things mean.
In my experience and in the experience of trainers and behaviourists with many more years experience than me... those dogs react the way they do because whilst the 'shht' or the finger prod or the foot touch you see on the actual show is usually fairly mild... the ones they were conditioned to off camera were not.
This isnt anything new and CM is far from the first person to do this - common choke chain training method use this, initially the word 'heel' is applied almost immediately followed with a sharp jerk or 'pop' on the chain when the dog gets out of the heel position. Over time the dog learns that the word heel means 'sharp jerk in neck coming' and so it avoids it by slackening off the leash.
What the dog then learns is that the sound of the chain tightening up is going to preceed the word heel, which preceeds the yank in the neck, so then the sound becomes the trigger to avoid the punishment.
To some degree and applied effectively and consistently, this method will have some success, however..
Its very hard to apply effectively and consistently.
To do so can and does cause physical damage to a lot of dogs.
To use it on many dogs (tiny dogs, puppies, dogs with long more fragile necks) would probably kill them.
Constantly using the avoidance of punishment actively stops a dog from seeking to learn (shuts them down)
The basic principle of using pain and the avoidance of punishment to train is an unpleasant and morally bad thing to do.
There are much more effective and easier methods to apply correctly and consistently.
There are much more humane and morally 'nice' methods to use.
So even if sometimes training using punishment can appear to work, when there is nicer, more effective and less risky option out there.. why not employ it.
I have to admit, CM makes me very angry, because on the face of it and especially to people new to dog training, what he says DOES sound brilliant, awesome, fantastic...
What you see and whats really going on are two very different things though - for instance people claim they have turned to Cesar as a last resort, if you could quiz them though you would find that they perhaps tried a training class once, or read a book and had a go for a week and werent consistant so gave up.... waited months, applied to be on the TV because ... whatever reason that makes folks want to be on 'reality tv'...
And in fact this last resort or they are going to have to have the dog put down/rehomed/etc... is nothing of the kind.
Its usually their FIRST resort after years of ignoring a problem or half heartedly fannying about and not sticking to anything.
Its no different on many tv shows, I know in the UK victoria had some people who really.. just wanted to be on tv, and though she showed them how to solve their problems with their dog, they werent really interested in actually doing the work. Shame for the dog but sadly there are a million and one dog owners out there like that!
I know a lot of trainers in the uk who spend a lot of time every week, cleaning up the mess people make attempting to train dogs the 'cesar' way (and the dog borstal way and going further back, the barbara woodhouse way....and so on). It looks like a magical cure but there are no magic cures...just clever camera work and a man with a winning smile, a great PR manager and some very devious tricks.
Well Gemma's owner just got home and I told him what happened. He was a little upset, glad the neighbours have been very understanding, doesn't want her put down (phew, step 1), but understands the seriousness of the behaviour. Said something about his sister would be willing to look after her if it came to that. I don't know if this is a better option? Who knows what the sister is like. I think it is a possibility that her owner has the views on training etc that he does because of the way he was raised (about which I know nothing ... I am just guessing).
I watched Gemma when he first came home and was pretty surprised at what I saw. She heard him talking on the phone in the driveway and got excited, walked up to the front gauze door, looked out, the wooden door swung shut in the breeze with a bit of a bang and she ran off went round the house and came back to my feet (I was sitting). He came in and slapped his thigh, she ran up to him, ears back, no "smile", jumped up on his leg while he was standing as directed (who actually trains a dog to jump on people ?!?!?!?) got a scratch on the head, but THEN after about 10-15 seconds... she ran back and jumped on my lap and settled down for a nap. That I wasn't really expecting. She's definitely loyal to her owner and feels that his room is her territory and likes spending time in there.
He has tomorrow off work as well and is amenable to taking her into the vet with us re her fleas/skin condition so I think that is a good first step.
I found out that the kicking incident was between 18 and 24 months ago ... I thought it was much longer ago. You are all going to cringe when you hear this, and now I think I know why I couldn't remember ... anyway. Another dog bit Gemma and she growled back at it and went to bite it back, so he kicked her and she was already off balance he says so it was worse and he didn't kick her very hard (he says) but she hit a metal pole and that was what hurt her ribs. He thinks they were only bruised for "a couple of weeks". So I don't know. He say he very rarely hits her ... that was the last incident and only when she really needs it. So I don't know. Her behaviour doesn't seem to bear this out. She seems very much more afraid than would be warranted by this. But I wouldn't be too fond of someone who kicked me like that, even once.
We talked to him a bit about our walks to the dog park and how good they are, how much we all enjoy it. He said he took her once, but she didn't interact with the other dogs, so he thought it was pointless and hasn't taken her again. I'm going to try and get him to come along with us tonight.
I just wanted to let you all know that initially we have some hope that things can improve...
I watched Gemma when he first came home and was pretty surprised at what I saw. She heard him talking on the phone in the driveway and got excited, walked up to the front gauze door, looked out, the wooden door swung shut in the breeze with a bit of a bang and she ran off went round the house and came back to my feet (I was sitting). He came in and slapped his thigh, she ran up to him, ears back, no "smile", jumped up on his leg while he was standing as directed (who actually trains a dog to jump on people ?!?!?!?) got a scratch on the head, but THEN after about 10-15 seconds... she ran back and jumped on my lap and settled down for a nap. That I wasn't really expecting. She's definitely loyal to her owner and feels that his room is her territory and likes spending time in there.
He has tomorrow off work as well and is amenable to taking her into the vet with us re her fleas/skin condition so I think that is a good first step.
I found out that the kicking incident was between 18 and 24 months ago ... I thought it was much longer ago. You are all going to cringe when you hear this, and now I think I know why I couldn't remember ... anyway. Another dog bit Gemma and she growled back at it and went to bite it back, so he kicked her and she was already off balance he says so it was worse and he didn't kick her very hard (he says) but she hit a metal pole and that was what hurt her ribs. He thinks they were only bruised for "a couple of weeks". So I don't know. He say he very rarely hits her ... that was the last incident and only when she really needs it. So I don't know. Her behaviour doesn't seem to bear this out. She seems very much more afraid than would be warranted by this. But I wouldn't be too fond of someone who kicked me like that, even once.
We talked to him a bit about our walks to the dog park and how good they are, how much we all enjoy it. He said he took her once, but she didn't interact with the other dogs, so he thought it was pointless and hasn't taken her again. I'm going to try and get him to come along with us tonight.
I just wanted to let you all know that initially we have some hope that things can improve...
Her owner sat down on the chair and indicated for Gemma to hop up on his lap but after a minute or two she yelped (don't know why, I didn't see him do anything) and came across to me and looked very fearful and strange. I've tried to persuade him to come to the dog park with us this evening, cos even our other flatmate is going to come. He's not keen, but I think he should.
I couldn't persuade Gemma's owner to come to the park with us (although he did say he might come tomorrow, but that she's a lapdog and doesn't need exercise, she just like to chill with him - I've never seen a less chilled dog!) but we had a great time anyway. Gemma seemed a little more social today with the other dogs.
The interesting thing is this: prior to her owner going away, she always spent all her time on his bed as soon as he came home. Now, she's spending all her time in the living room with us. Even when we got back from the walk - only an hour and a half today - she didn't even look in the bedroom, she went straight outside, surveyed the backyard, then came into the kitchen to see what we were up to (putting on dinner), then came into the lounge room with us and has settled on the mat. If I didn't have the laptop on my lap, I think she would have settled there!
I'm a little concerned about the effect this change in loyalties and affection will have on her owner ... it's qutie pronounced and more than I expected, though I can see why. Oh well, maybe it will provide motivation to him to change the way he interacts with her.
The interesting thing is this: prior to her owner going away, she always spent all her time on his bed as soon as he came home. Now, she's spending all her time in the living room with us. Even when we got back from the walk - only an hour and a half today - she didn't even look in the bedroom, she went straight outside, surveyed the backyard, then came into the kitchen to see what we were up to (putting on dinner), then came into the lounge room with us and has settled on the mat. If I didn't have the laptop on my lap, I think she would have settled there!
I'm a little concerned about the effect this change in loyalties and affection will have on her owner ... it's qutie pronounced and more than I expected, though I can see why. Oh well, maybe it will provide motivation to him to change the way he interacts with her.
There has actually been no change in loyalty and affection because he never had either in the first place. We have to earn these things. What the dog was displaying was territorial instinct. People can be territory as well. Dogs do what works: she has found situations that are beginning to work far better for her, and she is responding to them.
I do wonder what goes on in the head of someone who hits/kicks his dog for growling at a dog that bit her.
I think Gemma would be better going for walks with you, with whom she is now beginning to have a relationship, and let Mr. Idle remain at home, where he can work on building a relationship with his dog if he wants to. After all, want to or not, you have an owner to train as well. Unless he goes for the sister option, and is his sister going to keep the dog in the same manner? Does she even know she has been factored into this?
Who would be a dog
I do wonder what goes on in the head of someone who hits/kicks his dog for growling at a dog that bit her.
I think Gemma would be better going for walks with you, with whom she is now beginning to have a relationship, and let Mr. Idle remain at home, where he can work on building a relationship with his dog if he wants to. After all, want to or not, you have an owner to train as well. Unless he goes for the sister option, and is his sister going to keep the dog in the same manner? Does she even know she has been factored into this?
Who would be a dog
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
