This is the one i was thinking of
http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/10/29/t ... -pet-dogs/
I realise this isnt what you were doing with Gemma... but its the same thinking behind it, that the dog knows it did wrong and should be physically punished - now what you did was as a result of not knowing what else to do and feeling you ought to do something, and what those two police officers did was as a result of being total arseholes... so thats why i say its almost the same...
I have no idea why certain dog trainers are not brought to book over their training methods, i have seen on UK tv at least two dog trainers based in this country doing things that, with a basic understanding of dog behavouir and learning theory... i class as abusive (lifting a dog up by its neck on a chain so its front paws are off the ground, and dragging a dog along the ground by its neck when it wouldnt walk are two examples).
I suspect money and bad publicity are the reasons why the rspca have not attempted to prosecute those people. Ditto why certain much bigger name trainers in the US get away with it.
Yep, I have a very good idea of how sheepdogs are trained in Aus (and a lot of other animals too) and a great deal of them were trained in similar ways here too.
Sheepdogs are bred to depend upon a handler, probably more so here in the UK than in aus really as our sheep (excluding the very ballsy fiesty hill sheep) are not so tough and we dont have such scary wildlife here either.... the result is though a dog who will take a beating and come back for more because a kind word from a handler (which happens so rarely it really IS a treat) is everything to them - but we have bred them like this, the ones who show a streak of independance dont make the grade get put down or not bred from.... so it continues.
Try the same methods that would have a Border Collie a cowering simpering cringing 'let me please you oh go on i hang off your every word you are my God'.... to a terrier and youll get your face removed, and probably everyone the dog comes into contact with will risk that as well.
Terriers are bred NOT to give in, to think for themselves and survive no matter who they have to fight to do so - confrontational aggressive methods are not the way to go with them, and id say with any dog, because a relationship based on 'you are scared of me cos im capable of hurting you' is just not pleasant at all, why would anyone want that?.
This is the extreme end of positive reward and also clicker training but watch Richard Curtis here with his collie Pogo and his Portuguese water dog Disco
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XLg7MmVbj ... 0clips.htm
You simply cannot train that kind of behaviour any other way, and you can apply it to more useful things too, such as Canine assistance dogs...
http://www.caninepartners.co.uk/dog_par ... r_dogs.htm
What positive reward training does, is give you a dog who is actively seeking out ways to please you and be rewarded... instead of with a dog trained with positive punishment (and the rest but its nearly 4am and im not doing the four quadrants of punishment and reinforcement now).. who actively seeks to avoid getting punished.
That doesnt mean being permissive and allowing anything and everything to occur, or wave a sweetie at a dog to make it behave, not at all.
My dogs are not fearful of a loud voice or deep tone so I can distract them from something that way, but thats what it is its a distraction then divert to something i DO want them to do.
If i manage my dogs merely by distracting ill need to be more and more distracting which in the end... ends up being punishing.
Instead, ok a good example three of my dogs discovered someone elses cat in the bottom of my greenhouse 'tent' (plastic thing) in teh garden a few weeks back.
Now had ONE dog discovered it thered have been some woofing and it would have run away and all woudl be well but... two sighthounds and a terrier all discover a cat together under something, AND that cat then hisses and fights back... nah ah, not going to be ignored, things could likely end up verrrrrry badly for kitty.
So yes, I yelled at them, and they responded and stopped.... and having my hands full with an injured deerhound on a lead (had i let go of that thered have been no kitty left) i couldnt grab them to physically prevent them following the cat...
So i distracted them firstly by yelling, and secondly by offering an alternative thing to do, one they KNOW will be rewarded... which IIRC was lets go and see whats in the training pot today (variable rewards in the pot, no training session is the same so its always exciting) and we all went in the kitchen and did some sits and downs and waits with all the dogs together (one sits and waits whilst another does a spin, etc etc).
Now, i dont want them to kill cats, and its someone elses cat and morally and ethically had they hurt it and boy, they intended to kill it and shred it and probably parade the bits round afterwards, that would be wrong...
But they are never going to understand that not in a million years, not if i beat them senseless each time they as much as look at a cat. All they would learn is that if they see a cat, get it before i can get them, or to fear me if theres a cat present.
THIS way, i have (because i dont yell at my dogs much) something to distract them with, and because i use positive reinforcement, responding to me even if i have yelled really scarily, is guaranteed to be rewarding in some way.
If i always used a domineering or aggressive or forceful tone with them and wasnt a rewarding person to be around, then the yelling wouldnt be very distracting (because its common and usual) and thered be no reason to seek to earn reward from me (because they wouldnt be programmed to expect it).
Next time they see a cat in my garden.. well no i cannot guarantee that they will not go after it, but i know i have a high chance of stopping them from catching it and killing it. I will not seek to teach them something they cannot understand, (and cats are capable of learning not to go in my garden after all), however to prevent a cat getting trapped in my garden and some moral and ethical (if not actually legal) wrong occurring because i know they will chase cats, i have managed the situation by providing fencing that lets cats OUT.. but keeps dogs IN.
The same is achieved with a dog who may bite people by using a lead and a muzzle and training that dog, and proofing them against scary triggers - this is much more effective!
And.. now ive rambled on and on and totally forgotten what else i was going to say so i shall shuttup for now!