HELP! Dogsitting - Dog Bit my Neighbour UNPROVOKED

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Disney Paws
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Post by Disney Paws »

I think vet bills are a small price to pay for an animal that is the way a loved, well trained animal can be.
Read that sentence. An animal doesn't have to be well trained to be loved, or lovable. What makes dogs so lovable is that, no matter how good or badly trained they are, they're always they're for you. They don't care if your rich or poor, as long as she give them your heart, they'll give you theirs. From your posts, there isn't a doubt this dog loved you. The growling at you? That was stemmed from its betrayal, and she wouldn't fell betrayed if she didn't feel loved by you. I think this dog can be trained. Some dogs can not be trained(and this dog is not one of them), but that doesn't always mean they are bad and aren't worth you or what you have to offer them.
Besides, did you ever notice the significant difference between this dogs experience and its attack? Her owner is male, and so is your neighbor that she attacked. The dog is probably already wary around most males, and your owner couldve just made a gesture that scared the dog, and made it feel the need to protect itself, or even protect you, because it sounds like this dog really trusts(or trusted) you. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't pee itself when being yelled at, unless this was a total shock and betrayal to this dog.
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

This is the one i was thinking of http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/10/29/t ... -pet-dogs/

I realise this isnt what you were doing with Gemma... but its the same thinking behind it, that the dog knows it did wrong and should be physically punished - now what you did was as a result of not knowing what else to do and feeling you ought to do something, and what those two police officers did was as a result of being total arseholes... so thats why i say its almost the same...

I have no idea why certain dog trainers are not brought to book over their training methods, i have seen on UK tv at least two dog trainers based in this country doing things that, with a basic understanding of dog behavouir and learning theory... i class as abusive (lifting a dog up by its neck on a chain so its front paws are off the ground, and dragging a dog along the ground by its neck when it wouldnt walk are two examples).

I suspect money and bad publicity are the reasons why the rspca have not attempted to prosecute those people. Ditto why certain much bigger name trainers in the US get away with it.

Yep, I have a very good idea of how sheepdogs are trained in Aus (and a lot of other animals too) and a great deal of them were trained in similar ways here too.

Sheepdogs are bred to depend upon a handler, probably more so here in the UK than in aus really as our sheep (excluding the very ballsy fiesty hill sheep) are not so tough and we dont have such scary wildlife here either.... the result is though a dog who will take a beating and come back for more because a kind word from a handler (which happens so rarely it really IS a treat) is everything to them - but we have bred them like this, the ones who show a streak of independance dont make the grade get put down or not bred from.... so it continues.

Try the same methods that would have a Border Collie a cowering simpering cringing 'let me please you oh go on i hang off your every word you are my God'.... to a terrier and youll get your face removed, and probably everyone the dog comes into contact with will risk that as well.

Terriers are bred NOT to give in, to think for themselves and survive no matter who they have to fight to do so - confrontational aggressive methods are not the way to go with them, and id say with any dog, because a relationship based on 'you are scared of me cos im capable of hurting you' is just not pleasant at all, why would anyone want that?.


This is the extreme end of positive reward and also clicker training but watch Richard Curtis here with his collie Pogo and his Portuguese water dog Disco http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XLg7MmVbj ... 0clips.htm

You simply cannot train that kind of behaviour any other way, and you can apply it to more useful things too, such as Canine assistance dogs...

http://www.caninepartners.co.uk/dog_par ... r_dogs.htm

What positive reward training does, is give you a dog who is actively seeking out ways to please you and be rewarded... instead of with a dog trained with positive punishment (and the rest but its nearly 4am and im not doing the four quadrants of punishment and reinforcement now).. who actively seeks to avoid getting punished.

That doesnt mean being permissive and allowing anything and everything to occur, or wave a sweetie at a dog to make it behave, not at all.

My dogs are not fearful of a loud voice or deep tone so I can distract them from something that way, but thats what it is its a distraction then divert to something i DO want them to do.

If i manage my dogs merely by distracting ill need to be more and more distracting which in the end... ends up being punishing.

Instead, ok a good example three of my dogs discovered someone elses cat in the bottom of my greenhouse 'tent' (plastic thing) in teh garden a few weeks back.

Now had ONE dog discovered it thered have been some woofing and it would have run away and all woudl be well but... two sighthounds and a terrier all discover a cat together under something, AND that cat then hisses and fights back... nah ah, not going to be ignored, things could likely end up verrrrrry badly for kitty.

So yes, I yelled at them, and they responded and stopped.... and having my hands full with an injured deerhound on a lead (had i let go of that thered have been no kitty left) i couldnt grab them to physically prevent them following the cat...

So i distracted them firstly by yelling, and secondly by offering an alternative thing to do, one they KNOW will be rewarded... which IIRC was lets go and see whats in the training pot today (variable rewards in the pot, no training session is the same so its always exciting) and we all went in the kitchen and did some sits and downs and waits with all the dogs together (one sits and waits whilst another does a spin, etc etc).

Now, i dont want them to kill cats, and its someone elses cat and morally and ethically had they hurt it and boy, they intended to kill it and shred it and probably parade the bits round afterwards, that would be wrong...

But they are never going to understand that not in a million years, not if i beat them senseless each time they as much as look at a cat. All they would learn is that if they see a cat, get it before i can get them, or to fear me if theres a cat present.

THIS way, i have (because i dont yell at my dogs much) something to distract them with, and because i use positive reinforcement, responding to me even if i have yelled really scarily, is guaranteed to be rewarding in some way.

If i always used a domineering or aggressive or forceful tone with them and wasnt a rewarding person to be around, then the yelling wouldnt be very distracting (because its common and usual) and thered be no reason to seek to earn reward from me (because they wouldnt be programmed to expect it).

Next time they see a cat in my garden.. well no i cannot guarantee that they will not go after it, but i know i have a high chance of stopping them from catching it and killing it. I will not seek to teach them something they cannot understand, (and cats are capable of learning not to go in my garden after all), however to prevent a cat getting trapped in my garden and some moral and ethical (if not actually legal) wrong occurring because i know they will chase cats, i have managed the situation by providing fencing that lets cats OUT.. but keeps dogs IN.

The same is achieved with a dog who may bite people by using a lead and a muzzle and training that dog, and proofing them against scary triggers - this is much more effective!

And.. now ive rambled on and on and totally forgotten what else i was going to say so i shall shuttup for now!

:wink:
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Disney Paws,
Quote:
I think vet bills are a small price to pay for an animal that is the way a loved, well trained animal can be.


Read that sentence. An animal doesn't have to be well trained to be loved, or lovable.
Sure, they are not synonymous terms, that's why I used both. My mother has a dog who is very much loved, but definitely not well trained. Incidentally, she's an avid followed the IMOTD and your methods.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Emmabeth, Richard Curtis and his dogs were just amazing. Gorgeous. It was lovely to see them wagging their tails the whole way through, they were obviously having SO MUCH fun during the whole thing. Thanks for the links.

I contacted the RSPCA today and spoke for an hour with the supervisor of our local branch and have found out that:

Nothing I have done to/with Gemma is considered abuse ... so now I can sleep at night. They did mention that a smack is not part of a dog's culture and that growling/forcing to the ground would be better understood by a dog. I have however decided that the methods you all describe will probably work better for Gemma and that it would not be beneficial to use any form of negative physical contact or growling.

Unfortunately, even when told about the kicking, ?broken ribs incident, they said that there's nothing effective that they can do, or even could do had they been notified at the time. They can order a treatment order that she receives proper vet care for her skin condition if he refuses to provide it, but I think I can persuade him into that on my own, hopefully. It's not legally abuse not to provide a dog with exercise. Incidentally, you can tie a dog up for up to 23 hours if they have water and shelter. Not that gemma ever gets tied up, I only did it because I had to ensure that she couldn't get out after her incident. I'm quite disappointed ... I was kind of hoping after talking to mum, that some of what he does, coupled with the terrible effect it has all had on her would count as abuse or that they could do something.

So at the moment, I think the best bet for motivating her owner (you've no idea how many times I've typed his name, then erased it, in case someone he knows happens to read this! I've probably already given away too many details which I didn't mean to I didn't even mean to give her name, but it slipped out), anyway, the best bet for motivating him to change will be explaining about the dangerous dogs register and how the neighbours would be within their rights to have her registered as such and/or put down and also the large fines that owners of biting dogs etc are given. I'm going to try and explain all the things wrong with Gemma's behaviour and body (skin) try and get him to see that it's not normal, then explain how his behaviour with her is obviously not having a beneficial result ... if he can see this ... he's quite proud that she's fearful and obedient of him, sadly. Then hopefully persuade him to go to the vet with us (probably offer to pay half the bill) and hopefully get some good advice from the vet, if not at least effective treatment for the skin problems and anxiousness. I've also gotten the number of a dog or animal behaviouralist who works with the RSPCA who might be able to help. But everything as of tomorrow when he returns will really hinge on what her owner is willing to see about the situation and how much he is willing to change.

Well, we are off for a walk to the dog park now. Wish us luck and the intuitition to do the right thing, whatever that might be, in whatever happens on the walk. MUST REMEMBER CAT BITS FOR TREATS, MUST REMEMBER CAT BITS FOR TREATS... I clean forgot last time. I've discovered that one thing she will always eat (even over meat) is cat bits! Go figure :)

Thanks everyone...talk to you soon.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Oh and Emmabeth, congratulations on getting your dogs to override such a primal impulse ... that was a very volatile situation (I've been in a similar one, with just one large dog) and I'm very impressed that your training works so well that they just came ... that does give me a lot of faith in this method.

I'm sure you guys think I'm a slow learner with this stuff, cos I've disagreed on a few points, but I'm getting all sorts of contradictory advice and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff as it were. I've got some very well qualified people telling me the opposite of what I'm reading here, so I guess I'm just trying to feel my way to the right path.

OK now I'm really off to the park.
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

I think you are an incredibly fast learner, and we definitely need that :bunchofflowers: emoticon!

And I CRINGED when I heard about growling and forcing the dog to the ground from the RSPCA - oh lordy we have such a way to go with some people. :roll:


I do hope you get through to Gemma's owner, and I find it indescribably sad that someone enjoys the fact that a dog fears him. A ten-inch terrier at that. What a well'ard man.
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belrose
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Post by belrose »

So i distracted them firstly by yelling, and secondly by offering an alternative thing to do, one they KNOW will be rewarded... which IIRC was lets go and see whats in the training pot today
What's IIRC?

Also what's a well'ard man? I mean I get the general gist ... but I've never heard that term before.

It is pretty sad and awfully lame that a grown man in his mid-thirties needs to bolster his self-esteem in that way. I just hope that tomorrow goes well. For everyone's sake. Have I mentioned I am REALLY not looking forward to it?

Gemma's covered in fleas again after her bath yesterday and me spraying her owner's room with insecticide (can't vacuum ... can't see the floor in there). I really hope the vet has some answers for the fleas ... when my dog was alive Frontline was the bomb it just worked so well. I guess the little beggars are becoming resistant.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

I'm sure you guys think I'm a slow learner with this stuff, cos I've disagreed on a few points, but I'm getting all sorts of contradictory advice and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff as it were. I've got some very well qualified people telling me the opposite of what I'm reading here, so I guess I'm just trying to feel my way to the right path.

You are an exceptionally fast learner I wish there were more like you around and I have a lot of respect for you even though it may not look like it.

The members on this board speak their minds but don't deliberately attack others. We have found by experience that this is the best way, there are people who think about what is said and come back for more information, like you, and others who didn't want to know the real answer but wanted to be told what good, nice people they are, they don't stay. :lol:

There is no harm in challenging what we say, we then have to explain better, nothing wrong with that.

Everywhere you go and on every subject you will find very different ideas, all you can do is to go with what feels right.
They did mention that a smack is not part of a dog's culture and that growling/forcing to the ground would be better understood by a dog. I have however decided that the methods you all describe will probably work better for Gemma and that it would not be beneficial to use any form of negative physical contact or growling.
I have heard for many years now that your RSPCA is useless, it may be it may not be, but growling is a dog telling you something, it is up to us to listen, if we don't we get bitten. Some people stop the dog from growling which is very dangerous because the warning has gone, could this be why she didn't growl but bit, she has been stopped from growling?

Forcing a dog to the ground again is dangeous, a dog can take your face off because that will be the nearest thing for him to grab with his teeth. Dogs don't force each other to the ground, the dog rolls over on his back himself to show submission and the other dog will stand over him. I saw this a lot with one of my dogs now at the Rainbow Bridge.

Terriers are intelligent dogs but they won't back down, think of Yorkies attacking GSDs, Rotties etc. there are so many that will do this. Trying for force a Terrier to do something you will loose but give one a reason to work for you and you have an adoring, obedient friend.

It looks like her owner's room has a flea infestation, they could be all over the house as well because fleas don't stay in the same room. Don't know if this is your house or his but if it is yours I would tell him to get his room sorted and have the house deflead or she will never be free of them.
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belrose
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Post by belrose »

Ok, this is going to be a rant in many regards, so you're forewarned :-)

The walk was a failure in many respects tonight. Nothing serious, just disheartening for me.

I chopped up some Honey baked ham off the bone, cheese added it to cat bits, dog bits and put it in a bag to take with. I made quite a bit, cos I thought she'd eat it. She was almost totally disinterested or scared to eat it and I wound up giving it to a couple with 3 beautiful dogs to use. Chatted to them for a bit. They use the Cesar Millan method for training their dogs and told me a little about it. It sounds interesting and I'm going to look into that as well. Wow. He has a huge website... seems to sell lots of stuff though... even calendars!

I thought what I took seemed like high value treats (and a mix of things), but she wasn't interested, even at the house, when I had her sit to put the leash on she wasn't interested in ham, cheese or cat bits (that's when we got dog bits as well). She hadn't eaten since this morning, so she must have been at least a little hungry... I tried intermittently for the whole 2 hours to interest her in food rewards, but to no avail. We went back to verbal praise and pats. When I say pats I mean stroking ... I'm probably going to keep saying pats, though, cos I'm hard to train. :)

Oh, one good thing happened, we discovered another game !!! After all the other dogs had left the park and we had 2or 3 acres all to ourselves, I started calling her excitedly and running away from her and she chased me and then (cos I'm not that fit at the moment) kept running all around the park like a mad thing. She'd do a few small laps, get bored of it, come back to us and one of us would run off a little way calling her. So, I feel really good about that.

There were ~20 other dogs there when we arrived and there's a particular dog about her size that she seems very very interested in through the chainlink fence before we get in, we've seen this dog a few days in a row now. We got in, started walking around and a few dogs came up to say hello, have a sniff ... Gemma timidly had a sniff of a few of them. After an hour or so we came across a group of 3 fairly rambunctious puppies who were a little bit too gung ho for Gemmas liking. She would growl (really nasty, like she really means it) baring her teeth. "NO" kept coming out of my mouth before I could stop it!! Every time. Immediately after, I'd call her over in a high voice and praise her for coming, but training me is going to be the biggest problem first I think.. The way I train is just second nature to me now.

Whenever I thought the situation might be getting more than Gemma could handle or thought it had the potential to (if the dog was on the big side or I knew the dog was a bit rough or liked to play too much) I would call Gemma, she would come and I would praise her briefly, then let her go again. Often the dog she was going to meet would have followed her and Gemma seemed more comfortable meeting them near me, where she could hide in my skirt in between my feet if it got too scary. I also picked her up and held her out of the fray for a little while a few times.

My hope is that if she is allowed to socialise a bit more she will become more comfortable with other dogs and people and maybe the interaction with dogs will help some of her behaviour problems. And I would also like a brand new BMW for Xmas please Santa! Well you gotta hope for something, right?
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Belrose, I can send Reiki ahead for the meeting with her owner if you would like me to, it may help it may not but won't do any harm. :D
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belrose
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Post by belrose »

Disney Paws,

I had forgotten this but my partner just recounted a story while we out about an incident two weeks after gemma and her owner moved in:

I had the front door open and Gemma shot out and started heading up the road. I reacted immediately and in a fairly stern tone said "Gemma, come". She looked back at me then shot away up the road as if the very demons of hell were after her, peeing herself. My partner chased her as she was heading towards a busy road and obviously not in a good frame of mind. Thankfully he caught her before she got to it and brought her back, but she yelped and carried on and peed herself dreadfully all over him. He was NOT amused I can tell you :)

You guys must think I do nothing but yell at this poor animal, but I actually have a fairly soft, gentle voice and am not by nature a very assertive person. I have had to learn to develop a more assertive nature around both people and animals and have also been trained to develop a deeper, more gruff voice when commanding animals. I really have to try hard at this, it doesn't come naturally AT ALL.

Anyway, I hadn't done anything much to earn the dog's trust or otherwise in 2 weeks... a few pats (sorry strokes) maybe some leftovers and snacks, some belly rubs and lap time. that's all. yes she peed herself and acted as she did.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Oh Mattie, Thank you that would be very much appreciated. I have done Level II myself and I'm sure it will help in some way. The more light you have around a situation the better the outcome will be guaranteed. It may not always be the outcome you want, because we don't always see the bigger picture, but I firmly believe that it will be a better outcome.

You can't be that bad after all :wink:

I doubt it will be that bad, I'm just not a very confrontational person and I really hate these sort of things. I'd just love to wave a magic wand and have the owner instantly develop the ability to see Gemma as she really is and have some insight into what effect his behaviour has on her. All without me having to say a word would be tops!! :) But not very likely.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Just some more background, especially in relation to that story about Gemma shooting off up the road 2 weeks after they moved in... her owner never raises his voice at all to her ... only ever speaks in a soft monotone, devoid of all emotion. Never praise, never scold, just words. She does generally obey them, god knows how. I suspect that the only time he has ever used a different tone on her would have been when he was belting her. So we figure that she associated a stern tone of voice with a belting coming next, whereas I have always used tone of voice over any sort of physical contact and I've certainly never belted any animal.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

I've been meaning to say, thanks for all the info on terriers etc... I don't know much (if anything) about them as I've always had a preference for bigger dogs - german shepherds, labradors, collies etc. Well really anything with a tail, but if I have to choose, then those ones. I've learnt a lot about their behaviour from you all, especially (I think?) emmabeth. The whole "defend themselves to the end" business especially. It does help to have a better insight into that aspect of their behaviour.
belrose
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Post by belrose »

Emmabeth suggested that we encourage her owner to buy her a crate (the dog not emmabeth :lol: ) and I'm not too sure what this is ... she has a plastic doghouse which is quite large for the size of her ... probably a meter deep and 75cm high. I put some old towels and pillows in it for her as she wouldn't go in it even when it was raining and I thought maybe it wasn't very comfortable. Actually that's another thing she does ... she will stand out in the rain rather than seek shelter, and there's plenty of it available to her. That is why I started leaving the garage open for her, as she wouldn't go in her doghouse. Any thoughts on this? As if we haven't got enough to deal with already :-) and what is this crate thing? Is it better than a doghouse ... does it stand a better chance than a doghouse. Her safe place seems to be on her owner's bed, although while I've been trying to fumigate it while he's away, she's been quite happy on the mat in the loungeroom.
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