Hi there
The questions and answers that have been posted so far on this forum are great - I'm so glad I found it.
I wonder if anyone can give me some tips or words of wisdom on two problems I'm having with our happy, well behaved 5 month old Border Collie x Kelpie x Blue Heeler?
In the last month or so I have started putting the pup in the back of our car to take him with me to drop the kids at school. The reason for this is that instead of the walk we used to give him before school (no pavements, he gets pretty nervous with the trickle of traffic passing by) I am taking him every morning to the beach where he chases birds and we play fetch with a tennis ball and racquet. He loves this time at the beach and has a lot of fun, but simply refuses to get in the car each morning.
We don't put him in the car for any other reason than to take him somewhere fun and it's not too bad getting him back in to come HOME, not great, but he's getting better, but I just can't get him in to go OUT. I've tried treats, I've tried getting him excited, I give him lots of praise etc but basically he just runs away, lies down on his back and tries to avoid letting me pick him up. He's getting too heavy to do this every morning and it's very frustrating.
The other problem we're having is that he lives outside during the day. I work from home so I'm always around and I chat to him, sit outside with him if I have a cup of coffee etc and he's been doing well. His barking problem has settled right down (using Victoria's method from the show) and all was pretty good in that area for a pup but then our neighbours arrived home from a long holiday and our dog is so stressed out he's barking on and off all of the time and not sleeping in the sun on the decking as he used to.
The neighbour shouts at their kids aggressively, the tiny kids cry all the time and the dog they have sounds very aggressive and agitated, barking all of the time. Obviously, our dog can't relax and doesn't know what to do with himself.
Any ideas of how to manage this?
Thank you very much to anyone who reads / responds, it's very much appreciated.
Kind regards
TimTam
Dog Won't Get in Car / Next Door's Dog Stressing Dog Out
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Hi, have you heard of Target Training? That is where you teach a dog to follow a "target", usually a short length of dowel with the last inch coloured in a contrasting colour.
Full instructions are here:
http://www.ezinearticles.com/?id=218521
I have found, when dealing with animals who are fearful about going into places, that targetting gets the most effective results. I have had some amazing experiences using targetting. I think it gets the animal 'thinking' instead of 'feeling'.
As for your neighbours yelling at the kids, even though we're only part way through series 1 in Australia I know that Victoria uses Classical Conditioning by pairing sounds with food (and has a sound effects CD specifically for this). In the first episode she did this with a video of dogs barking. "Dogs barking" = "chicken time".
The idea is to toss your dog some food every time the neighbour yells. Even better if you can record your neighbour and play it back over and over quietly at first, and getting louder over several days.
What you're looking for is a change in emotional response, the dog starts to expect roast chicken when the neighbour yells. Neighbour yelling predicts chicken in your dog's mind.
Try it with something unscary first, to get the idea. Whistle and toss a small piece of roast chicken. Repeat over and over, pretty soon you just need to whistle and your dog will come running for roast chicken!
You just taught your dog to come when whistled
Full instructions are here:
http://www.ezinearticles.com/?id=218521
I have found, when dealing with animals who are fearful about going into places, that targetting gets the most effective results. I have had some amazing experiences using targetting. I think it gets the animal 'thinking' instead of 'feeling'.
As for your neighbours yelling at the kids, even though we're only part way through series 1 in Australia I know that Victoria uses Classical Conditioning by pairing sounds with food (and has a sound effects CD specifically for this). In the first episode she did this with a video of dogs barking. "Dogs barking" = "chicken time".
The idea is to toss your dog some food every time the neighbour yells. Even better if you can record your neighbour and play it back over and over quietly at first, and getting louder over several days.
What you're looking for is a change in emotional response, the dog starts to expect roast chicken when the neighbour yells. Neighbour yelling predicts chicken in your dog's mind.
Try it with something unscary first, to get the idea. Whistle and toss a small piece of roast chicken. Repeat over and over, pretty soon you just need to whistle and your dog will come running for roast chicken!
You just taught your dog to come when whistled
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Fantastic! Thank you.
Hi there Aidan
Thank you so much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate your help and I'm looking forward to trying both of these tips.
I'll post again to let you know how it went.
Thanks again
Thank you so much for your detailed reply, I really appreciate your help and I'm looking forward to trying both of these tips.
I'll post again to let you know how it went.
Thanks again
Update
Hi there Aidan.
Just wanted to update as promised.
The desensitising against the dog barking went well, I actually had to use honey roast ham as that's all I had at the time, but the dog loved it and it worked well.
The targetting did not go so well and I'm still working on that. I have actually been putting his lead on and leading him to the car. He still lies down and refuses to get in but it is easier to pick him up from there and put him in, rather than carry him across the whole yard.
We're actually developing a new issue every day now it would seem. The poor dog is not coping very well with every day life and I am doing my best to retain the consistent and calm approach we have taken with him since we took him home. He did lots of mouthing and nipping when he was a tiny pup but we worked on that and also had him de-sexed which helped us to get it under control.
However, we've had some problems with biting, aggressive growling and barking which all came out of the blue. Conflicting advice all over the place now, the vet said to try doggie Prozac, but they would prefer him to be re-homed.
He hasn't broken skin on biting but he's certainly making his point.
We've tried to find a trainer but we live in a land of very few trainers unfortunately, well, there are two here, but one didn't want to help as the dog had bitten a face, a complete no no we're told, and we were advised to re-home him. The other trainer has been very difficult to get hold of and organise something with.
I am struggling with this as the dog and I have worked really well together since he came to live with us but now it's feeling less and less managed on a daily basis.
My "bad owner" confession is that the harder it gets, the worse I am managing it and the dog is probably getting mixed signals all over the place. He's started trashing his bed, licking excessively all of the time, he's jumping and scratching and the list goes on.
However, the plan is that the trainer we went to see today (who wasn't there when we arrived) will be meeting us tomorrow to see how we all behave together and we will take it from there.
Our situation at home is, if there is one more bite, we have to do what we're being repeatedly advised to do and that's going to be so hard for everyone.
Hopefully, the trainer will say "you need to do this this this" and help me to work with the dog so that we can learn to trust him (and him us) again. Not easy when we have small children, especially as this is my first dog and I always said "any dog who bits a child must go."
I would like to think that re-homing means finding him a great farm to work on where he can herd the sheep with his teeth (he's a Kelpie x Border Collie x Blue Heeler) as I am told he is prone to do, but I know that it won't necessarily work that way, so I really want to avoid this if I can. Our vet works with our RSPCA shelter and says that he will work with them to try to re-home our dog to a good place, but it still feels like the wrong thing to do and I don't want to palm him off like a reject, but neither do I want to regret keeping him and having him bite worse if there's a next time.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting with the trainer tomorrow and have set the weekend up so that the kids and I can give the dog all of our time, attention and some new training methods to give us a better indication of the overall picture.
Thanks again for your earlier advice, I had a look at your website and you have some great articles there, I'll keep reading.
Kind regards
TimTam
Just wanted to update as promised.
The desensitising against the dog barking went well, I actually had to use honey roast ham as that's all I had at the time, but the dog loved it and it worked well.
The targetting did not go so well and I'm still working on that. I have actually been putting his lead on and leading him to the car. He still lies down and refuses to get in but it is easier to pick him up from there and put him in, rather than carry him across the whole yard.
We're actually developing a new issue every day now it would seem. The poor dog is not coping very well with every day life and I am doing my best to retain the consistent and calm approach we have taken with him since we took him home. He did lots of mouthing and nipping when he was a tiny pup but we worked on that and also had him de-sexed which helped us to get it under control.
However, we've had some problems with biting, aggressive growling and barking which all came out of the blue. Conflicting advice all over the place now, the vet said to try doggie Prozac, but they would prefer him to be re-homed.
He hasn't broken skin on biting but he's certainly making his point.
We've tried to find a trainer but we live in a land of very few trainers unfortunately, well, there are two here, but one didn't want to help as the dog had bitten a face, a complete no no we're told, and we were advised to re-home him. The other trainer has been very difficult to get hold of and organise something with.
I am struggling with this as the dog and I have worked really well together since he came to live with us but now it's feeling less and less managed on a daily basis.
My "bad owner" confession is that the harder it gets, the worse I am managing it and the dog is probably getting mixed signals all over the place. He's started trashing his bed, licking excessively all of the time, he's jumping and scratching and the list goes on.
However, the plan is that the trainer we went to see today (who wasn't there when we arrived) will be meeting us tomorrow to see how we all behave together and we will take it from there.
Our situation at home is, if there is one more bite, we have to do what we're being repeatedly advised to do and that's going to be so hard for everyone.
Hopefully, the trainer will say "you need to do this this this" and help me to work with the dog so that we can learn to trust him (and him us) again. Not easy when we have small children, especially as this is my first dog and I always said "any dog who bits a child must go."
I would like to think that re-homing means finding him a great farm to work on where he can herd the sheep with his teeth (he's a Kelpie x Border Collie x Blue Heeler) as I am told he is prone to do, but I know that it won't necessarily work that way, so I really want to avoid this if I can. Our vet works with our RSPCA shelter and says that he will work with them to try to re-home our dog to a good place, but it still feels like the wrong thing to do and I don't want to palm him off like a reject, but neither do I want to regret keeping him and having him bite worse if there's a next time.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting with the trainer tomorrow and have set the weekend up so that the kids and I can give the dog all of our time, attention and some new training methods to give us a better indication of the overall picture.
Thanks again for your earlier advice, I had a look at your website and you have some great articles there, I'll keep reading.
Kind regards
TimTam
Under what circumstances is he biting?
If it's when you try to put him in the car, then it could be defensive. Rolling onto his back is a pretty clear way of saying he doesn't want to get in, and if he's then picked up and put in the car that could quite easily lead to biting.
I'm not sure what your chances are of finding a working home for him are, I know in this country it's not easy and most farmers want puppies not adult dogs with a history of biting, but I'm not in Australia it might be different there.
Good luck with your trainer. I'd love to hear how it goes and what they advise
If it's when you try to put him in the car, then it could be defensive. Rolling onto his back is a pretty clear way of saying he doesn't want to get in, and if he's then picked up and put in the car that could quite easily lead to biting.
I'm not sure what your chances are of finding a working home for him are, I know in this country it's not easy and most farmers want puppies not adult dogs with a history of biting, but I'm not in Australia it might be different there.
Good luck with your trainer. I'd love to hear how it goes and what they advise
Hmm.
You have a working dog there - what 'work' does he do every day?
He sounds like a very VERY stressed out dog, he has to deal with things alone for a lot of the day shut outside which i see you have attempted to sort out but have you really? Or has he learned that being quiet is more rewarding but ISNT finding the situation any less stressful.
The going in the car thing....he obviously finds something unpleasant about travelling in your car, despite the fantastic reward at the end of every journey so id guess whatever it is he doesnt like, he REALLY doesnt like it. Forcing him to do it isnt going to help him get over it and as you are now finding, can push him to relieve his stress in other behaviours.
Does he have to stay outside all day? If he does, for how much of the time is he actually left to amuse himself and how much time do you spend specifically with him doing things?
Dogs ARENT good on their own, they are a gregarious animal just like us and thats why they fit well into our lives.
Do you have to force him into the car, could you find another way of getting him otu and about kindly?
Personally, id have him IN the house, sometimes with me, sometimes on his own (you dont want him to be unable to cope EVER on his own thats not healthy either). I wouldnt force him to do things he clearly finds distressing, if he doesnt want to go outside so badly that he lies down and wont move, start by rewarding him purely for coming outside. Then set him up to succeed, just a few paces at first, then back inside again.
To make up for the lack of exercise, play thinking games with him, make him solve puzzles and problems, train different tricks using the clicker.
Doing all these games and clicker training with him will improve the bond between you, as will spending more time with HIM and him being able to share your home.
If you continue to shut him out of your life and force things upon him that he clearly finds unpleasant then you will break any bond you have with him and his behaviour will worsen.
Em
You have a working dog there - what 'work' does he do every day?
He sounds like a very VERY stressed out dog, he has to deal with things alone for a lot of the day shut outside which i see you have attempted to sort out but have you really? Or has he learned that being quiet is more rewarding but ISNT finding the situation any less stressful.
The going in the car thing....he obviously finds something unpleasant about travelling in your car, despite the fantastic reward at the end of every journey so id guess whatever it is he doesnt like, he REALLY doesnt like it. Forcing him to do it isnt going to help him get over it and as you are now finding, can push him to relieve his stress in other behaviours.
Does he have to stay outside all day? If he does, for how much of the time is he actually left to amuse himself and how much time do you spend specifically with him doing things?
Dogs ARENT good on their own, they are a gregarious animal just like us and thats why they fit well into our lives.
Do you have to force him into the car, could you find another way of getting him otu and about kindly?
Personally, id have him IN the house, sometimes with me, sometimes on his own (you dont want him to be unable to cope EVER on his own thats not healthy either). I wouldnt force him to do things he clearly finds distressing, if he doesnt want to go outside so badly that he lies down and wont move, start by rewarding him purely for coming outside. Then set him up to succeed, just a few paces at first, then back inside again.
To make up for the lack of exercise, play thinking games with him, make him solve puzzles and problems, train different tricks using the clicker.
Doing all these games and clicker training with him will improve the bond between you, as will spending more time with HIM and him being able to share your home.
If you continue to shut him out of your life and force things upon him that he clearly finds unpleasant then you will break any bond you have with him and his behaviour will worsen.
Em
Hi TimTam, sorry it's not working out so well. Which State are you in? I might be able to recommend someone (if you're in Tassie I can recommend me).
'Doggy Prozac' might not be a bad idea. I would seek the help of a veterinary behaviourist such as Dr Calnon or Dr Holmes. Vets can prescribe medications to treat behavioural problems but rarely have the expertise of a veterinary behaviourist. Sorting out the right medication and putting a behavioural modification program in place is crucial, if indeed medication is appropriate in this case.
Bites that don't break the skin indicate that your dog has a fairly good chance of rehabilitation. Always, when a dog bites, we need to look closely at possible reasons for this. ALL dogs bite, a specialist can help you determine why and what you can do about it.
I should have been more detailed with my targetting advice. I always advocate setting the dog up for success. Use successive approximations, don't use targetting when you actually have to get him in the car until he is ready.
The idea is to have him target by the car. When he will do that 4 out of 5 trials, have him target by the open car door. When he can do that 4 out of 5 trials, have him target the stick just inside the car (he doesn't have to get in) Move forward like that. Think about the action of getting in the car and use the target to achieve approximations towards that goal.
The trainer you are meeting may be able to demonstrate shaping for you. If they can't, you need to find another trainer. There are now Delta CGC Instructors in most areas of Australia, all very well trained. I forget the website, but google it and you will find a list of qualified trainers.
Please, don't feel too bad if you have to re-home him. He is your first dog, you have children. Children come first. The RSPCA are a no-kill shelter and work hard to find suitable homes.
In the meantime, use management to keep everyone safe as I am sure you are already doing.
'Doggy Prozac' might not be a bad idea. I would seek the help of a veterinary behaviourist such as Dr Calnon or Dr Holmes. Vets can prescribe medications to treat behavioural problems but rarely have the expertise of a veterinary behaviourist. Sorting out the right medication and putting a behavioural modification program in place is crucial, if indeed medication is appropriate in this case.
Bites that don't break the skin indicate that your dog has a fairly good chance of rehabilitation. Always, when a dog bites, we need to look closely at possible reasons for this. ALL dogs bite, a specialist can help you determine why and what you can do about it.
I should have been more detailed with my targetting advice. I always advocate setting the dog up for success. Use successive approximations, don't use targetting when you actually have to get him in the car until he is ready.
The idea is to have him target by the car. When he will do that 4 out of 5 trials, have him target by the open car door. When he can do that 4 out of 5 trials, have him target the stick just inside the car (he doesn't have to get in) Move forward like that. Think about the action of getting in the car and use the target to achieve approximations towards that goal.
The trainer you are meeting may be able to demonstrate shaping for you. If they can't, you need to find another trainer. There are now Delta CGC Instructors in most areas of Australia, all very well trained. I forget the website, but google it and you will find a list of qualified trainers.
Please, don't feel too bad if you have to re-home him. He is your first dog, you have children. Children come first. The RSPCA are a no-kill shelter and work hard to find suitable homes.
In the meantime, use management to keep everyone safe as I am sure you are already doing.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Another Update...
Another day a fresh perspective, I'm back on the update again:
Josie, thank you for your comments, he is actually biting under EVERY circumstance at the moment, but I know that a lot of this is his frustration and that we are giving each other mixed signals all of the time at the moment, so I am working on the consistency, hence spending the last four weeks seeking a one on one trainer as we don't have puppy classes here that I could take him to when he was tiny. I'm assured that, should we choose to have him re-homed, that shouldn't be a problem as he is still young enough and well suited to the farms around here, but I really don't want to take that route, so I'll keep you posted, thanks again.
Aidan, thank you once again for yet more helpful advice, I'll keep working on the target training in smaller steps, that's great, thank you. I'm in country SA but I'm still not keen on the re-homing yet, if I do take that option I will certainly get in touch with you. I also appreciate your support about re-homing should it prove necessary, I have been pushed and pulled in so many different directions by different people, it's very reassuring for you to offer kind words in my direction here. Another thing, I have been making toys for the dog to "work" on for months and I was so happy to read your extra suggestions about more toys for him. He does lots of jobs around the place that keep him busy, including collecting the leaves in the yard for me into a pile (that keeps him going, there are enough of them!!!) but today I made one with dry rice in it which was very novel for him (and noisy)
Emmabeth, I can assure you that I am NOT shutting the dog out of my life under any circumstances. Several people in the world go out to work for 8hrs or more each day and nobody finds that unacceptable to leave their dogs alone, all our dog has to cope with is the fact that there is an open door between us which he doesn't cross. Also, my dog is not lacking exercise. He runs on the beach for 20mins every morning, we walk together for 15mins every lunch time, we walk or beach run every evening for another 30mins or so as well as the quarter acre block that he has a free run on.
It would be lovely to keep him in the house but, as you have pointed out, he is a working dog and we live in the country so he lives as a traditional working dog lives. He is spoilt compared to most dogs of his breed as he sleeps in the house at night and if I go out for more than an hour, he sleeps in his bed in the house until I come home, but that is as far as it goes because of his breeds, my personal choice and that of most families in the country with these breeds of dog make the same choice.
I appreciate your comments but just wanted to make my point that he is not shut out. Even when I am working, the doors are open, he can hear me, I can hear him and I spend time with him every time I take a break.
Now generally, just to let everyone know how our meeting with the trainer went today, it went very well. She feels very positive that we will work this out successfully and has taken me right back to the way in which I was FIRST handling the dog, months ago, which I stupidly let myself be talked out of.
Also, it would appear that part of this stressful period was kicked off by the bush fire we had just over a week ago from which we had to get the kids, the dog and the family photos out of here and stay away for the day. It was a very stressful time for him, sirens all around, fire and smoke and ash everywhere and all the smells / noises / bad atmosphere would not have helped him at all. Coincidentally, the dog bite happened the very next day and we knew he was jumpy, so when I spoke to someone about this and mentioned my concerns today, they confirmed what I had thought.
Okay, I think I've typed enough now. I have written a list of things the trainer showed me this afternoon, I will be sticking with that consistently, and I feel very confident that I can turn this around and not go with the re-homing advice I have been given by everyone I've spoken to locally.
Looking forward to a good weekend with the dog and some great behaviour from us both very soon.
Thanks again
TimTam
Josie, thank you for your comments, he is actually biting under EVERY circumstance at the moment, but I know that a lot of this is his frustration and that we are giving each other mixed signals all of the time at the moment, so I am working on the consistency, hence spending the last four weeks seeking a one on one trainer as we don't have puppy classes here that I could take him to when he was tiny. I'm assured that, should we choose to have him re-homed, that shouldn't be a problem as he is still young enough and well suited to the farms around here, but I really don't want to take that route, so I'll keep you posted, thanks again.
Aidan, thank you once again for yet more helpful advice, I'll keep working on the target training in smaller steps, that's great, thank you. I'm in country SA but I'm still not keen on the re-homing yet, if I do take that option I will certainly get in touch with you. I also appreciate your support about re-homing should it prove necessary, I have been pushed and pulled in so many different directions by different people, it's very reassuring for you to offer kind words in my direction here. Another thing, I have been making toys for the dog to "work" on for months and I was so happy to read your extra suggestions about more toys for him. He does lots of jobs around the place that keep him busy, including collecting the leaves in the yard for me into a pile (that keeps him going, there are enough of them!!!) but today I made one with dry rice in it which was very novel for him (and noisy
)Emmabeth, I can assure you that I am NOT shutting the dog out of my life under any circumstances. Several people in the world go out to work for 8hrs or more each day and nobody finds that unacceptable to leave their dogs alone, all our dog has to cope with is the fact that there is an open door between us which he doesn't cross. Also, my dog is not lacking exercise. He runs on the beach for 20mins every morning, we walk together for 15mins every lunch time, we walk or beach run every evening for another 30mins or so as well as the quarter acre block that he has a free run on.
It would be lovely to keep him in the house but, as you have pointed out, he is a working dog and we live in the country so he lives as a traditional working dog lives. He is spoilt compared to most dogs of his breed as he sleeps in the house at night and if I go out for more than an hour, he sleeps in his bed in the house until I come home, but that is as far as it goes because of his breeds, my personal choice and that of most families in the country with these breeds of dog make the same choice.
I appreciate your comments but just wanted to make my point that he is not shut out. Even when I am working, the doors are open, he can hear me, I can hear him and I spend time with him every time I take a break.
Now generally, just to let everyone know how our meeting with the trainer went today, it went very well. She feels very positive that we will work this out successfully and has taken me right back to the way in which I was FIRST handling the dog, months ago, which I stupidly let myself be talked out of.
Also, it would appear that part of this stressful period was kicked off by the bush fire we had just over a week ago from which we had to get the kids, the dog and the family photos out of here and stay away for the day. It was a very stressful time for him, sirens all around, fire and smoke and ash everywhere and all the smells / noises / bad atmosphere would not have helped him at all. Coincidentally, the dog bite happened the very next day and we knew he was jumpy, so when I spoke to someone about this and mentioned my concerns today, they confirmed what I had thought.
Okay, I think I've typed enough now. I have written a list of things the trainer showed me this afternoon, I will be sticking with that consistently, and I feel very confident that I can turn this around and not go with the re-homing advice I have been given by everyone I've spoken to locally.
Looking forward to a good weekend with the dog and some great behaviour from us both very soon.
Thanks again
TimTam
Emmabeth, I can assure you that I am NOT shutting the dog out of my life under any circumstances. Several people in the world go out to work for 8hrs or more each day and nobody finds that unacceptable to leave their dogs alone, all our dog has to cope with is the fact that there is an open door between us which he doesn't cross. Also, my dog is not lacking exercise. He runs on the beach for 20mins every morning, we walk together for 15mins every lunch time, we walk or beach run every evening for another 30mins or so as well as the quarter acre block that he has a free run on.
Lots of people go out to work 8 hours a dog and a LOT of people find it incredibly unacceptable to leave a dog alone for that length of time - myself included. This is why I also work from home.
So, you have a working breed, yes its traditional that they live outside, this is the case in the UK as well - WHEN they are in a working home. Yours is not.
Ask yourself, why do you get so defensive about being questioned on how you keep your dog - ive not suggested and nor do i think you are being cruel, i just think if you were willing to compromise on the way he is kept you may find some changes for the better.
It may be traditional to keep dogs outside but I think its not helping YOUR dog, and quite frankly, %**! what other people do and dont do with their dogs, this ones yours and you and he need to find a way to live together that suits you BOTH.
65 minutes exercise a day - for a dog bred to work (not just run, WORK, as in interact with his handler and use his brain as well as his muscles) for 4 or 5 hours plus every day....
You havent mentioned what bonding and training exercises you do with him.
How long in total every day does he have to cope outside on his own for - given he has a problem with 'outside' i suspect this could be stressing him out a great deal.
Im absolutely NOT against dogs living outside, and I know dogs who do live outside very happily, but they are also given WORK to do and spend a lot of their outside time (ie 8 hours plus) WITH their dog outside.
Would it be so bad if he came IN to part of the house in the day, he could be occupied with a kong filled with part of his food ration, interactive toys that he has to puzzle out for himself, simply laying by your feet whilst you work would probably benefit him greatly, IF you provide plenty of exercise both physical and mental, every day.
A dog like yours without the traditional sheep/cattle work he is bred to NEED, needs a job to replace that - so id be working towards an aim of him doing something like working trials, or agility (or both and some obedience work too).
On your daily beach runs/walks, do you JUST run/ walk, or do you do any training?
Personally, id be doing recalls, downs, stays, retreives, finding hidden objects, meaning he has to interact and work with you, and he has to use his own brain as well.
I can also assure you that some dogs will find something as simple as knowing they must not cross an open boundary VERY stressful - i have a dog here who for 9 years was NOT permitted out of the kitchen in her previous home. Shes now allowed anywhere in my house yet she will NOT walk through an open doorway and she finds that deeply distressing, one of us has to go and get her and bring her into a room every time.
Im actually not trying to get at you at all (although i expect you think i am). Im trying to get you to see that whilst it may be the done thing to keep dogs outside, it may well be that YOUR dog cannot cope wtih this and that you may be able to improve his behaviour by changing this. It is highly unfair to expect a dog to slot into a human lifestyle, you need to bend a little too, on exercise, mental stimulation and companionship/being allowed to share your space.
(That said ive got one dog here who is packing his bags right now and wants to know your address as he would LOVE your lifestyle - he is not a working type dog though!)
Em
I know there are cultural differences around the world, but I find it dismaying that "doggy prozac" and rehoming are being suggested for a dog that just needs more input.
Firstly there can't have been much research into the breeds your dog is made up of before you bought/adopted him. What made you pick him? Were you working then or has this come about since you adopted him? Where do you work? If you work at home why is the dog not allowed inside? If you work away, what's wrong with him being in the house in a safe area where he can feel less stressed?
What exactly is it stopping you letting him in when you know outside is causing so much stress? If we knew, we'd be able to advise better. It can't be down to "tradition" because I don't think that would make you make him go through this, knowing he wasn't happy.
Secondly, he's not getting enough exercise or stimulation. Wearing a dog out is more than a quick run, it's mental stimulation too. 8 hours while you work, then obviously while you're asleep he's not getting it - exactly how much training, stimulation, play, etc is he getting?
Sounds to me like this dog's being made to live a life he's clearly not made for. He's showing this in stress behaviours. He doesn't need drugs, he needs a proper home with mental stimulation and more dog/human interaction (which ideally should be TimTam if he can turn this around).
There are many reasons for and against keeping dogs outside, but my opinion is it's not necessary (in this case), and it's stressing the dog out. Let him in!
Firstly there can't have been much research into the breeds your dog is made up of before you bought/adopted him. What made you pick him? Were you working then or has this come about since you adopted him? Where do you work? If you work at home why is the dog not allowed inside? If you work away, what's wrong with him being in the house in a safe area where he can feel less stressed?
What exactly is it stopping you letting him in when you know outside is causing so much stress? If we knew, we'd be able to advise better. It can't be down to "tradition" because I don't think that would make you make him go through this, knowing he wasn't happy.
Secondly, he's not getting enough exercise or stimulation. Wearing a dog out is more than a quick run, it's mental stimulation too. 8 hours while you work, then obviously while you're asleep he's not getting it - exactly how much training, stimulation, play, etc is he getting?
Sounds to me like this dog's being made to live a life he's clearly not made for. He's showing this in stress behaviours. He doesn't need drugs, he needs a proper home with mental stimulation and more dog/human interaction (which ideally should be TimTam if he can turn this around).
There are many reasons for and against keeping dogs outside, but my opinion is it's not necessary (in this case), and it's stressing the dog out. Let him in!
End of discussion for me!
Hi there
Thank you for your input, I'm done with this discussion.
I understand that people have the dog's best interests at heart, as do I, but I am not here to be judged, I'm simply doing my very best and admitting my mistakes in order to correct them, instead of giving up when it got too hard and following the advice I have been given my professionals who have met the dog, I have bravely put myself out there looking for help.
As I mentioned before, I have found a trainer and she has taken the time to find out the whole picture before jumping to any conclusions about the amount of time my dog spends alone or how my family interacts with him.
We will happily work with her and I can gladly say that she finds our schedule and his routine very acceptable, she has two exceptionally happy and well trained working dogs, so she fully understands my dog's needs too.
Good luck to everyone with their dogs.
TimTam
Thank you for your input, I'm done with this discussion.
I understand that people have the dog's best interests at heart, as do I, but I am not here to be judged, I'm simply doing my very best and admitting my mistakes in order to correct them, instead of giving up when it got too hard and following the advice I have been given my professionals who have met the dog, I have bravely put myself out there looking for help.
As I mentioned before, I have found a trainer and she has taken the time to find out the whole picture before jumping to any conclusions about the amount of time my dog spends alone or how my family interacts with him.
We will happily work with her and I can gladly say that she finds our schedule and his routine very acceptable, she has two exceptionally happy and well trained working dogs, so she fully understands my dog's needs too.
Good luck to everyone with their dogs.
TimTam
Timtam, just for the record, I've followed this discussion, and I highly commend you because it is obvious that you are trying to do everything that you can within your situation, to make life easier for you and your fmaily AND your dog. I love Aidan's advice, and I really hope that things work for you and with the trainer you've found.
I know tha everyone's just trying to help, but I do agree that it feels like you're being judged sometimes on this forum. Sometimes so much so that it's not worth posting (perhaps others could keep this in mind?)
Anyhow, good luck mate!
I know tha everyone's just trying to help, but I do agree that it feels like you're being judged sometimes on this forum. Sometimes so much so that it's not worth posting (perhaps others could keep this in mind?)
Anyhow, good luck mate!
Just to clarify my point here.
No one is being judged, certainly not by me anyway.
I have been frequenting internet forums for the better part of 7/8 years now, specificially animal forums and in particular dog ones.
I have found, when problem solving, one has to look at ALL the evidence, check that back wtih experience, previous learning etc and then make suggestions.
I can appreciate that some people dont want their dogs in the house for part or all of the time, and there are dogs that are perfectly happy with that.
There are people who dont want their dogs on their beds, or sofas, or upstairs - again, for the most part dogs can understand and be happy with that.
But when you are reading a problem, and you find a few peices of information that make you think, such as in this case, the amount of exercise and mental stimulation TimTams dog gets v the amount of time spent outside alone (sorry, knowing you are there is nto the same as being there with you!) - what are you supposed to do?
Do you ignore it, despite warning bells going 'whoop whoop' in your head? For fear of causing offence?
Or do you mention it, because at the end of the day, i dont answer peoples problems about dogs to reassure them that they are brilliant and cant be doing anything wrong, i answer them to help SOLVE the problem and hopefully let dog and owner enjoy life together.
If i cant bring up certain areas and if the original poster gets offended or refuses to compromise or try different suggestions, then im sorry, i actually cant help there.
Im glad TimTam has found a trainer - but im still worried that this trainer apparently thinks the exercise is sufficient.
However TimTam hasnt mentioned whether they do lots of training and games and problem solving as well as that exercise - that would definately change things.
These are after all, text based interactions and i think people need to step back and realise, its not abotu THEM its about their DOG at the end of the day.
Sadly to me this does appear liek the age old case of 'didnt hear what i wanted to hear, throwing toys out of pram'. I do apologise TimTam if that is NOT the case, but oh so frequently it IS.
Im sure TimTam isnt actually readign this any more, but if anyone else IS - if you ask advice people, PLEASE be prepared to hear and consider things you may not at first like.
No one is being judged, certainly not by me anyway.
I have been frequenting internet forums for the better part of 7/8 years now, specificially animal forums and in particular dog ones.
I have found, when problem solving, one has to look at ALL the evidence, check that back wtih experience, previous learning etc and then make suggestions.
I can appreciate that some people dont want their dogs in the house for part or all of the time, and there are dogs that are perfectly happy with that.
There are people who dont want their dogs on their beds, or sofas, or upstairs - again, for the most part dogs can understand and be happy with that.
But when you are reading a problem, and you find a few peices of information that make you think, such as in this case, the amount of exercise and mental stimulation TimTams dog gets v the amount of time spent outside alone (sorry, knowing you are there is nto the same as being there with you!) - what are you supposed to do?
Do you ignore it, despite warning bells going 'whoop whoop' in your head? For fear of causing offence?
Or do you mention it, because at the end of the day, i dont answer peoples problems about dogs to reassure them that they are brilliant and cant be doing anything wrong, i answer them to help SOLVE the problem and hopefully let dog and owner enjoy life together.
If i cant bring up certain areas and if the original poster gets offended or refuses to compromise or try different suggestions, then im sorry, i actually cant help there.
Im glad TimTam has found a trainer - but im still worried that this trainer apparently thinks the exercise is sufficient.
However TimTam hasnt mentioned whether they do lots of training and games and problem solving as well as that exercise - that would definately change things.
These are after all, text based interactions and i think people need to step back and realise, its not abotu THEM its about their DOG at the end of the day.
Sadly to me this does appear liek the age old case of 'didnt hear what i wanted to hear, throwing toys out of pram'. I do apologise TimTam if that is NOT the case, but oh so frequently it IS.
Im sure TimTam isnt actually readign this any more, but if anyone else IS - if you ask advice people, PLEASE be prepared to hear and consider things you may not at first like.
