They are adopting out a dog who bit!!! Irresponsible rescue!

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:42 am

Have to fool debug mode again..

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:42 am

I am really upset.. I posted about the false assessment.

However, I have a habit of surfing CL to see what I can find for potentinal homes that might be able to deal with a dog like Midnight so far cero luck but still...

BUT...

When I was at the trainer with Midnight the other day for the assessment, he told me about how a dog bit him. Another rott that was VERY dominant. Anyhow, he showed me a two inch bite in the arm, that he had stitched up on his own.

Afterwards they sent photos to me of a really cute rottweiler, he was aboslutely adorable, a year old. And now I find this dog on CL.
This dog is a potentional danger, unless you surpress him and take the bite (alternative really know how to work with a dog like this which we all know there is very limited homes). They are actually adopting him out!!!!!!

and the only way they keep this dog under control is YANK YANK YANK YANK, forcing him to NOT lunge, despite that he is likely scared out of his mind, mentally breaking him creating a ticking bomb. On top of that, he has now broken the bite inhibiton and everyone knows that once broken, the easier it will be for the dog to access that behavior again...

I am seriously worried for the people who takes him in...

WendyM · Post by **WendyM** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:25 am

By CL I assume you're referring to Craigslist?

Is there a way to report the dog as a dangerous animal to your county or animal control? Would the person bit be willing to collaborate? I hate to think it would get the animal destroyed, but it might preserve someone's life to do so if they are rehoming it without warning potential adopters.

The only other thing I can think of is to post an ad in your local pets section (not in the discussion area, but the classifieds area) where you can warn others away from this dog.

My final suggestion is to contact a rotweiller breed rescue and explain the situation, hopefully they could make some helpful suggestions.

I know you're frustration with the CL ads all too well.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:43 am

HA!! the guy who got bit is basically cesar millans little brother (in way of acting, thinking, working ,sounding, looking, he even has the pssht sound, even the HEIGHT is the same).. He handled a scared dog hard, the dog attacked and he beat him down til he didnt try nothing no more.

if I say something everyone will know its me, there is maybe 3-4 people who knows about it basically...

I have contemplated calling animal control, but again, they would know it's me and then they wouldnt want to help my dog with their connections. Midnights case has started to go out now to people who do rescue on the countryside, since I am hoping for a quiet home for him, but a part of me is worried wher ehe might end up and are contemplating putting him to sleep for HIS sake...

ROtt rescues around here do not take in a dog who has bit.. Midnight had not bit and they didnt even want to take in him cause he is a very assertive dog with certain fear issues.. but not half as bad as this dog and he got declined so..

I feel like my hands are tied..

On top of that another guy I know this rescuers are working with, that they have put me in contact with, we were discussing and he sent me an article where it was stated that he had wrote it.. half way into that one, it starts over but now it stated: written by (and another name) and then the full article again... Hence he cut and paste filed in his name, was gonna cut and paste the rest and accidently took everything...

I havent worked a lot with these american rescues, and I really start to feel that mayeb I shouldnt at all either..

All of the once I have come across has been unethical in so many ways..

They work with severe dominance and basically surpress the dogs to obediance..

They lie, adopt out potentially dangerous dogs (cause they really wanna save everybody)

A no kill shelter where I got hired, and also fired from, adopted out pups that was sick, they were on antibiotics for URI but ended up having parvo and died (they didnt keep the pup in quaranteen long enough to see what it really was) hence they put other family animals in danger.. They also worked according to cesar millan, and when I did the yelp thing for nippy puppies I got corrected adn then they jamed a fist into the puppies mouth to have them stop mouthing. they use chock collars on dogs that bites (as if that would make them better)

other rescue groups, gives dogs to fosters and leaves them there..

and there is more...

The more I see the more I go nuts on this..

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:15 pm

Sometimes you have to do what you feel is right. While you may loose some networking possibilities to make connections with potential owners, is that worth a bad placement due to the faulty and shoddy work practices of a bad rescue organization?

I honestly believe you would be able to find more assistence working with your local ASPCA than you would some of these rescue groups. You might even find more resources for training. Someone experienced within the organization who would be willing to take a dog like Midnight.

If you think this resuce is not acting humanely or fraudulently adoption dangerous dogs IMO you have an obligation to make a report. Bad rescues give all rescues a bad name.

Keep fighting the good fight.

WendyM · Post by **WendyM** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:18 pm

The situation sucks, but people/rescues like that are not going to give you much in the way of useful contacts for finding a responsible home for Midnight, and after seeing how they are trying to rehome a dangerous dog to unsuspecting people I would not want them anywhere near him.

Especially if they follow Cesar's way of training, they aren't going to see people that use positive reinforcement based methods as responsible owners for dogs that have problems. If they do help place Midnight, I'd fear that he'd end up with a Cesar clone that would push him over the edge.

This is one of those situations where the worse possible "what if" can easily cost a human beings life or well being. If this dog goes to a home with children or teens are you going to be at peace with it because you might be able to find a home for Midnight through these people?

I wouldn't, I would burn that bridge and start looking for better options.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:52 pm

Oh its not the same rescue Wendy, they just use the same guy.
They would never take a biter...
but I am afraid that he might end up with a leash poper..
and kranz I have emailed the local aspca asking for help, they never answered.

and yeah I see what you guys are saying, I am gonna email animal control anomunys and give them the link to the add. Unless he's dead already cause I have not seen more adds up.

It just irks me when rescues do things like this.
I mean Midnight has never bit, he loves people, but I feel that his fear reactions MIGHT make him dangerous depends on how it's handled and that ENOUGH is making me concidering to put him to sleep. Due to the fact that if he redirects something really hard, he's big enough to rip a throat out so I have to ensure he don't do that and that is hard..

I wonder when people will start to take real responsibility for what they have in the leash..

DoggoneGA · Post by **DoggoneGA** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:59 pm

"Especially if they follow Cesar's way of training, they aren't going to see people that use positive reinforcement based methods as responsible owners for dogs that have problems"

I don't understand this statement at all. Cesar Millan uses positive reinforcement, and when he needs the assistance of a trainer (he does not call himself a trainer, but a rehabilitator) he has called in - as in the case of Wilshire, the Dalmatian - a trainer who uses clicker training.

Please don't be blaming Cesar for other people who misunderstand and misuse his techinques. That's no more fair than blaming Victoria when people don't properly follow HER advice.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:41 pm

Using alpha rolls, choke chains, flooding and other means of physical punishment are not apart of positive reinforcement based training. These are all techniques used by Ceaser and frequently shown on his program. The entire dominance concept and pack theory as well are not apart of posistive based training.

They are very backward andnew research and science have shown that many of these methods are not effective. In many cases they result in dogs who supress their discomfort and show absolutely no signs or warning before attacking people of other dogs.

you are right on one thing. CM does not call himself a trainer, but he does call himself a behaviorist which he is sorely lacking in qualification.

Monkey · Post by **Monkey** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:35 pm

he has started to utilize some of it more recently so I have heard, never seen myself yet... However he is several years late, he turns dogs over to other trainers who are SO easy but he has no clue how to deal with it cause he has NO knowledge of drive, reward, etc.. saw one german shepherd that as soon as he got a toy and played with the handler, he couldnt care less about the other dogs..

However, he has also ruined tons of dogs, he zaps them behind the scenes etc when people aren't looking.. You never get to see that..
Owners has told online..

Sorry that man will NEVER have my respect... NEVER....

That man is absolutely useless, only good thing he has done is that he has got people to realize that you HAVE to exercise your dog..

DoggoneGA · Post by **DoggoneGA** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:44 pm

"They are very backward andnew research and science have shown that many of these methods are not effective. In many cases they result in dogs who supress their discomfort and show absolutely no signs or warning before attacking people of other dogs."

And yet. I watch every show and week after week after week I see dogs go from tight, tense, fearful, agressive, panicy, obsessive...to relaxed and with wonderfully easy happy faces. I first watched his show with scepticism...but it was the DOGS that convinced me he has a gift I could learn from. And I have.

If ANYONE does not watch every show, but judges Cesar's methods only on 1 or 2 or 3...they are missing the whole picture. One of my favorites of them all is the Black-and-Tan Coonhound rescued from a testing labratory. The owner had had the dog for several years...I want to say 5, but don't quote me on that as I'm not sure...and even after all that time she had to chase him down to get a collar a lead on him. He was fearful to the point of panicing whenever she approached him, or tried to walk him on a lead.

Within the course of a few hours, with no jerking, no alpha rolls, NONE of the techniques that you claim are ineffective...Cesar had that dog coming up to people and soliciting touching. He had that dog following the owner when she walked away. He had that eye-rolling, twitchy, fearful dog relaxed and happy to be with the people that just the day before he had been shying away from.

If you judge his techniques on pre-conceived notions of what does and doesn't work, then yes, you are only going to see the things you think are bad...and you're not going to see how well his techniques work. ESPECIALLY with the scared, fearful, and low self-esteem dogs.

I watch Victoria's show, I watch Cesar's show, I watch Dog Town and I've read literally dozens of training books. I find something to criticize and something to like in almost all of them...though at this point I find Dog Town's techniques to be the least likeable...so far.

I've used training techniques that range from Koehler's basic training techinques all the way to having dogs right now that have NEVER had a correction or heard the word no.

So while I would not defend Cesar OR Victoria 100% I also will not condemn any trainer withouth giving them a fair chance to show me what they do. Both Cesar AND Victoria have given me a LOT to like. Dog Town has not...at least, not yet.

DoggoneGA · Post by **DoggoneGA** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:55 pm

"However, he has also ruined tons of dogs, he zaps them behind the scenes etc when people aren't looking.. You never get to see that..
Owners has told online.."

And other owners have ABSOLUTELY denied that any such thing goes on. So who are you going to believe? Me? I prefer to go by what I see of the end results reflected in the dogs. And, like it or not, NO TRAINER could be doing that sort of thing and ending up with the easy, relaxed dogs that you see at the end of his shows. NO TRAINER, not even Victoria could abuse a dog and then get it to look happy and relaxed.

There's always this possibility: that the techniques that have been "proven" to be ineffective were ineffective because they were not used correctly.

I've said this for years, and I'll say it until the day I die: THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in training dogs is TIMING. I could take any of Cesar's techniques and completely ruin a dog by using them with bad timing. I could take ANY of Victoria's techniques and ruin a dog by using them with bad timing.

That would not be an indictment of EITHER method...only of MY inability to time either the corrections used by both, or the rewards used by both PROPERLY. Fortunately I have a pretty good sense of timing and I'm very experienced at reading most dogs. So I watch both shows, and I see...over and over and over and over...that BOTH hosts see the poor timing in their clients and that BOTH have to work very hard sometimes to get the owners to recognize their own failures of timing.

In fact, I wish they would BOTH use that work "timing" more. Hit it home that you have to learn your dog's reactions AND you have to work on YOUR timing of either rewards or corrections. Get either wrong often enough and you'll end up with a wreck of a dog. Which is actually how both Cesar AND Victoria GET most of their clients: because the clients are doing reward and/or correction wrong and messing up their dogs as a result.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:43 pm

First define what you mena by happy and relaxed. I admit I have only watch a few <20 episodes of CM show, several of the dogs were stil showing sign of complete distress and were primarily responding out of fear of CM either from being rolled or flooded.

Using any corrections on a dog exhibiting fear and from my experience all aggression is based on fear, only exasperates the condition.

In any show there are things that only go as far as the editing floor. Do you really think they would show CM geting bit when doing an alpha roll?
For some dogs some may receive corrections off camera and others may not so that is going to depend on who you ask. I would believe both as each case is individual.

Using positive re-inforcement you will not "ruin" a dog. You may not see improvement, but you will not make a dog worse than they already are even with bad timing. Bad timing with punisyhment based trianing and you will see a whole different result.

The other wrong assumption is how long training takes. It takes far more than an hour long episode to rehab almost any dog shown on either show.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:56 pm

And yet. I watch every show and week after week after week I see dogs go from tight, tense, fearful, agressive, panicy, obsessive...to relaxed and with wonderfully easy happy faces. I first watched his show with scepticism...but it was the DOGS that convinced me he has a gift I could learn from. And I have.

All I have seen is dogs that have shut down, a shut down dog can often give the impression that they are happy and relaxed as I found out when I took Tommy on. Even the trainers were I took her thought she was a happy, relaxed dog.

After I had her for about 15 months she changed, she became the happy, relaxed dog that everyone thought she was and it was very different. Her tail was always carried up, but at first there was tension in it, that was the only sign of her not being the happy relaxed dog she seemed. Her tail went from being tense to relaxed, soft and supple.

There were other signs as well that she was now relaxed, she became part of the family instead of being in her basket all the time. She developed a lovely big grin and would hold conversations with us but most of all she started to get into mischief. She was never disobedient, but was mischievous by the way she played etc.

A relaxed happy dog doesn't have a tense tail or back end, if they do, they have shut down because they can't cope.

DoggoneGA · Post by **DoggoneGA** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:58 pm

"First define what you mena by happy and relaxed. I admit I have only watch a few <20 episodes of CM show, several of the dogs were stil showing sign of complete distress and were primarily responding out of fear of CM either from being rolled or flooded. "

First of all, yes you ARE going to see dogs show something of a fearful reaction. Cesar is, after all, a total stranger who comes into their lives and shows them other ways of coping with what is distressing to them. I judge the results based on how I see the dogs react to their owners, as well as how they react to Cesar. Maybe you are only remembering the shows where there wasn't such a great result because the dog needed more work. *I* remember the ones where the dogs seek out Cesar in preference to their owners, and the owners comment on it.

I've had dogs long enough to know when a dog is relaxed and happy, and when they are not. It's on their faces more than anywhere else. No dog that is showing signs of distress will EVER have a relaxed face, just as people can't.

"Using any corrections on a dog exhibiting fear and from my experience all aggression is based on fear, only exasperates the condition. "

I don't agree that ALL agression is fear based...BUT, having said that it's important to be sure we both mean the same thing when we say "aggression" In a conversation on a dog list someone asked what was dog on dog agression and my answer was: if the victim dog submits and the "attack" stops - that is NOT aggression, it is dominance. If the attacker continues to attack even when the victim submits, THAT is aggression.

So, to me, as in the show I just saw about Ben, the cream German Shepherd, the narrator kept making reference to Ben's "aggression." *I* did not see an aggressive dog, even though they stated he had bitten people. What *I* saw was a dog in the dominant position in the house who was enforcing his understanding of discipline on his "pack' - his people. When he chased the daughter up the stairs, for instance, as soon as she had retreated the "proper" distance he left her there and went away. He had enforced his dominance and as a dominant dog will do, he then confidently left the area.

A truly aggressive dog would have pushed the advantage of her "weakness" in retreated and she probably would have been seriously attacked.

"In any show there are things that only go as far as the editing floor. Do you really think they would show CM geting bit when doing an alpha roll? "

ABSOLUTELY they will. I've seen Cesar getting bitten maybe a dozen times or more. In one show (the show about the women and dogs in prison) he was bitten 3 times in just a couple of seconds and they showed every bite and even re-ran it slower so the audience could see better exactly what happened. He always explains that it is important not to be fearful or get angry when that happens, that YOU can't influence the dog's behavior if YOUR behavior is not under control.

"For some dogs some may receive corrections off camera and others may not so that is going to depend on who you ask. I would believe both as each case is individual. "

I remember that Cesar says, and demonstrates, that he will do ANYTHING it takes to influence the dog's behavior, but no I do not think he ever uses physical abuse on the dogs. He doesn't have to. I find his shows about truly out of control aggressive dogs to be less interesting than his shows about fearful, low self-esteem or traumatized dogs, which I find to be FAR more interesting. I just watched one of his shows and in the entire hour there were no alpha-rolls, no corrections, nothing dramatic. He showed the owners how their own mind-set and body language was reinforcing in their dogs the behavior they DID NOT want. He changed the owners and the DOGS changed.

"Using positive re-inforcement you will not "ruin" a dog. You may not see improvement, but you will not make a dog worse than they already are even with bad timing. Bad timing with punisyhment based trianing and you will see a whole different result. "

Don't you believe it. If you are constantly rewarding the dog for BAD behavior - and you WILL see that all the time on Victoria's shows - you are using the same TECHNIQUE as used by positive trainers, but being used incorrectly to reinforce the WRONG behavior. Victoria sometimes has quite a struggle showing her clients that their positive "rewards" are ill-timed and are giving the dog permission to do the wrong things. Again, that cropped up in the show about Ben. The father in the house was petting and stroking Ben while Ben was barking and threatening his own MOTHER. Positively reinforcing the WRONG behavior. A classic example.

"The other wrong assumption is how long training takes. It takes far more than an hour long episode to rehab almost any dog shown on either show"

Of course it does, and for that reason, starting in the second season, they started showing elapsed time for an exercise. But they also show the dogs that come to his center and how long they are there. One was there for 6 weeks, others for a week. It just depends on the dog and what it's issue happens to be.

As for dogs that shut down...I have Whippets and shutting down on you is a classic Whippet defense against doing something they don't like or don't want to do. You have to get very good at detecting that response or you WILL end up with a ruined dog. So I consider that I am very good at seeing when a dog is shutting down...and yes, I have seen it happen on Cesar's show (and on Victoria's) and I have also seen how Cesar and Victoria ALSO catch that response and alter their techniques to cope with it without making the dog worse.