They are adopting out a dog who bit!!! Irresponsible rescue!

Share your favorite training tips, ideas and methods with other Positively members!

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Locked
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"You have a dog that is untrained going to events?"

No.
WendyM
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:12 pm

Post by WendyM »

DoggoneGA wrote:"You have a dog that is untrained going to events?"

No.
If your dog can't go to an event without shooting off and disregarding your commands:

YES.
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"If it does not do that, I guess it would be more on the line of an interupter"

I've been thinking about this and the more I think about it the more I like that word "interupter." That is much more descriptive of what I have been calling a correction. That is how I think of a "correction" - something that interupts what the dog is doing at the moment and gives me an opportunity to show him what I want him to be doing instead.

It has, to me, better connotations than does the word punishment. I'm not particularly interested in how scientists use that word. I'm not a scientist, and to ME "punishment" has an "after the fact" meaning that I don't think is appropriate to training dogs. But "interupter" has a much better "feel" to it as a description of how the action should work.
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"If your dog can't go to an event without shooting off and disregarding your commands:"

Have you ever been to a lure coursing event? To get the kind of control you think I should have when the lure is moving I would have to just about kill my dogs inate instinct to chase. And I'm not willing to even go near that.

As long as they remain more or less controllable during the short time after I get them ready and the time they go to the line to be released I'm happy. I CAN control my slamming boy, it just hurts to do it. So I have used a bungee cord leash to take the sting out of his slams, but he is learning how to take advantage of the maximum stretch of that bungee...hence my search for a different way to keep him from slamming the lead without hurting me or himself.

I can tell you a story that demonstrates what I mean. Years ago I went to a lure coursing even and some people came with 2 Scottish Deerhounds. They put down a blanket, set up some chairs and put the dogs on the blanket - right at the front of the gallery area where they could see the runs. The did not tie their dogs, nor even hold the leashes. They even got up and walked away and the dogs just layed there with no one in control, even when the lure was moving and other dogs were running.

I take it that would please you - that they were quite willing to stay where they were put.

Well...the huntmaster called for Deerhounds and the owners came back, blanketed and collared their dogs for the slip and went to the line. We were AMAZED that those nice, quiet dogs would actually run. And you know what...THEY WOULD NOT. The huntmaster gave the "tally-ho" (the command to slip the dogs) and they just stood at the line and watched the lure go away from them.

Sorry, I'll take my "uncontrollable" (only they aren't) dogs that love to run over dogs under THAT kind of control.
WendyM
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:12 pm

Post by WendyM »

DoggoneGA wrote:
Sorry, I'll take my "uncontrollable" (only they aren't) dogs that love to run over dogs under THAT kind of control.
You have an untrained dog and you don't want to train it. I get it, I think it's stupid and dangerous, but I understand-- training takes time and effort. You don't want to invest that kind of time and effort so you use a management device that is dangerous and cruel.

Fine-- just don't expect me to nod my head and agree with you like everything is coming up rainbows and kittens.

As for your little story: Don't you think that dogs can tell the difference between a real running animal and three plastic bags?

Deerhounds are still bred for large and small game-- those were not unmotivated dogs, they were just smart enough to realize that they weren't bred to chase plastic bags. As in plastic bags are not motivation enough-- I suspect if you set them after a real rabbit they'd show you what real preydrive is all about.
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"You have an untrained dog and you don't want to train it."

You don't know me, and you don't know my dogs. You have NO business claiming my dogs are "untrained" How do YOU define trained?

My dogs will sit, down, stand, wait, come, lie on either side quietly, allow me to cut their nails unrestrained. They can all sleep with me, one at a time or in groups without any sort of grumbles. They travel and rest quietly in their crates. Some of them even do tricks...two of them will even sit up and beg, which is difficult for a heavy chested breed to do. They are all easy to load into the starting boxes when we race. They all stand at the line at lure coursing without struggling. I can clean their teeth with no restraints. They can be examined by a Vet with no problems. Anyone can slip them at lure coursing, or box or catch them at racing.

I have tolerated, sometimes with a bit of difficulty, the accusations that I mistreat my dogs, that I only care for myself, that my dogs are uncontrollable. But this is the last straw...that I am too lazy to train them. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. Untrained, uncared for, uncontrollable dogs do not earn the titles that my dogs have earned. Performance dogs require a high level of care AND training if they are to do the best they can. As house pets they must be biddable and easy to live with. My dog fulfull BOTH of these requirements.

Surrey Hill's Velvet Elvis,SC, FCh, CRX, TRP, OTRM, TT
Surry Hill Adagio Supersonic,SC, FCh, CR, TRP, TT
FC Comet's Amicus Curiae Runswift,MC, FCh, CRX, OTRM, TT, TRP
ORun-Comet CountryRd Runswift, FCh, CRX, OTRM, TT
O'Run-Comet TabaccoRd Runswift, FCh, CR, OTRM, TT
Devillez Troubadour of Runswift,SC, FCh, CRX, TRP, OTRM, TT

And my special pride and joy:
DC O'Run Runswift Red Gold,MC, LCM2, CRX, TRP, DPC, OTRM, TT

You can't get a string of titles like that with uncontrollable untrained dogs.
WendyM
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:12 pm

Post by WendyM »

DoggoneGA wrote: You don't know me, and you don't know my dogs. You have NO business claiming my dogs are "untrained" How do YOU define trained?
Don't tell me that you aren't willing to train your dog and then claim your dog is trained. Loose lead walking is part of basic obedience for any dog, if your dog can't handle walking in a high distraction environment on a loose leash-- then it's not trained.
ckranz
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:18 pm
Location: San Diego CA

Post by ckranz »

I also do luring, and yes I do see people with uncontrollable dogs allt he time. I have also seen our huntmaster dismiss such dogs forfitting all fees for bad behavior.

Luring titles are nothing about behavior, but about the dogs ability to lure and to chase and pursuit. It's not something that is trainable...either a dog has the desire or they do not.

Because Khan is not a purebred (of any breed) I cannot compete in venues that grant titles, but that does not mean that he is not held to the same standards of behavior and judged any differently. He lures quite well.

His off field behavior is exemplary. I have a travel crate which I use for agility as well. Until we are clled to queue he is in his crate settling. He sees and hears the lure and all the other participants going nuts and yet remains relaxed.

When we are called to the queue (3 dogs before his run), Frist we do some quick stretching and warmups, The,I purposely build his excitement, by the time we get to the line and I am holding the slip he is charged and ready to go. I have never seen him not take of like a shot.

I admit when the run is done, I still need more work on recall (he's still playing with the lure), but we are still training and he is getting better. As his training off field improves, his coursing times and runs have also improved. This is because he is not being wasteful of energy pre-run. Everything he has goes into each run. After each run we do some cooldown exercises and get watered. Once cooled we go back to the crate and settle until our next run.

His times generally improve with each run. When we began his times were about 32-34 seconds for a 700yd course, now we are in the 26-28 second range. While your whippets may post better times, mine show just as much enthusiasm and love of the sport.

Its a matter of training an on an off command for your dogs excitement. Believe me I would never, never call my dog off a moving lure, (don't think he would much listen LOL), but he knows when I release him to Talley ho, it's his game to play.

Training your dog to have good off field behavior will not kill drive. Its not a matter of training your dog to "check in" either.

Just a quick story from my last sprint event. Two whippets (who are dog park buddies of Khan), ran the 200 yd sprint. Normally for this group you have one person releasing the dog and another to catch. The owners of course elect to release and had friends to catch. At the end of the run, the dogs dropped the lure and sped back over the course to their owners....(no recall given). It was kind of cool to watch.

Once I get Khan fitted for a racing muzzle, it will be fun to race him with his buddies. At the DP when they get running around the park, Khan is the only park buddy that can keep up. Its kind of funny to watch. As they lead a bit they like turn around and Khan is right on their heels. They speed up, Khan speeds up and they turn again to the same picture. I think Khan has a bit more endurance, or they just get bored as dogs do and he catches them. Looking forward to having him in a real sprint race against his buddies.
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Post by emmabeth »

DoggoneGA - couple of points, firstly wrt this board and the way it runs.

This is not the first time that in a debate you have been asked to try and stick to technical, scientific terms.

I actually dont give a rats which words you like and do not like, we have these terms so that there can be NO misunderstanding and you do seem to enjoy creating misunderstanding and argument.

Stop doing it. This board is for the use of people from many countries and many levels of education, with the difficulties that creates it is downright devisive to refuse to stick to correct terminology because 'you don't feel like it'. If those of us who's main language is the same as your own and an indepth understanding of dog behaviour and training methods struggle to understand what you really mean, other people havent a chance.


Now - on a personal level.

Anyone who can look at that Cesar Milan video (and again I dont give a STUFF how many times he gives a dog a bit of cheese, or doesnt kick/roll/pin/helicopter/leash pop or drag a dog) and feel that that is an appropriate way to teach any animal to trust and respect people has NO place handling animals at all.

It demonstrates very clearly a complete lack of ability to read a dogs body language.

I do agree that it is important to look at a wide variety of trainers with an open mind and try to understand what they are doing and why. That is the mindset with which I first came to watching CM (and fred hassan and a variety of others)... it is CM own words and actions that have reinforced my growing feelings over the years that there is NO place for positive punishment, dominance theory, pain based, physical and mental bullying in dog training.

Unfortunately, not everyone gets a wide variety of trainers to read, question, watch and learn from all at the same time, and so a VAST number of dog owners come to even beginning to contemplate the complexities of dog behaviour via such people as CM.

In doing so they invariably do NOT have a variety of opinions and methods to compare against one another, instead they see something that they are told is working and they are told is necessary and they are told is ok to do.

They cannot pick out 'what they like and discard what they do not like' in an educated and reasoned way Until they are shown what is REALLY going on (for instance the supposed 'calm submissive state' CM bangs on and on about, which is certainly in teh case of the clip linked in this thread absolutely NOT calm at all, but learned helplessness (sorry thats a sciencey jargon for you there), the dog is frozen in terror, certain in the knowledge that this man is going to make life absolutely hell for him no matter what he does.

Why would ANYONE want to create that kind of fear in their dog, or anyone else they have a relationship with. I cant believe you honestly think that dogs ought to do as we say because they fear us above anything else in existance. Would you be happy to be the 'dog' in a human/human relationship like that (because a great deal of women, and some men DO live that sort of life style and hate every single second of it, I know I did!)

Since we have much MUCH kinder, safer, and more effective tools at our disposal - backed up by science, why promote the use of anything else?

And finally again specifically a question for DoggoneGA, your use of a prong collar, in a situation where others have absolutely no need of such a thing.

What lengths exactly have you gone to to try and teach self control? And i do not mean turning your dog into a velcro dog, looking to you every second for instruction. Why cant you teach him to wait, trembling with excitement until he is slipped...

I do own sighthounds so I am absolutely aware of their mind set and their desires. In your example about the deerhounds, I can guarantee that they were not chasing the lure because they percieved it as a disgusting waste of their time and energy.

I can think of little more exciting a situation than a dog who knows what he or she is about, going out in the dark lamping rabbits.
Yet if these dogs (and some of the very best lamping dogs have a good proportion of whippet in there) were to lunge wildly on the end of the lead whilst their handler lit up the safest, wisest choice of quarry, that rabbit would be gone before slipping the dog was a possiblity. These dogs CAN learn self control and have to - if they couldnt they just wouldnt exist as theyd be unable to do the jobs they have been bred to do for centuries.

I see people set agility dogs and flyball dogs, in the most distracting circumstances imaginable, into steady, quiet, off lead sit/down stays and walk away from them, ahead of them in most cases.. and whilst many are border collies a great deal are dogs NOT bred to be patient and wait a while.. such as terriers.

If they can achieve that, I really cant see any good reason why you cannot achieve a quiet, not lunging whippet on the end of a slip.

(And as an aside .. surely the dog doesnt RUN wearing the prong collar!!!!)
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Mattie »

DoggoneGA wrote: I have tolerated, sometimes with a bit of difficulty, the accusations that I mistreat my dogs, that I only care for myself, that my dogs are uncontrollable. But this is the last straw...that I am too lazy to train them. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. Untrained, uncared for, uncontrollable dogs do not earn the titles that my dogs have earned. Performance dogs require a high level of care AND training if they are to do the best they can. As house pets they must be biddable and easy to live with. My dog fulfull BOTH of these requirements.

Surrey Hill's Velvet Elvis,SC, FCh, CRX, TRP, OTRM, TT
Surry Hill Adagio Supersonic,SC, FCh, CR, TRP, TT
FC Comet's Amicus Curiae Runswift,MC, FCh, CRX, OTRM, TT, TRP
ORun-Comet CountryRd Runswift, FCh, CRX, OTRM, TT
O'Run-Comet TabaccoRd Runswift, FCh, CR, OTRM, TT
Devillez Troubadour of Runswift,SC, FCh, CRX, TRP, OTRM, TT

And my special pride and joy:
DC O'Run Runswift Red Gold,MC, LCM2, CRX, TRP, DPC, OTRM, TT

You can't get a string of titles like that with uncontrollable untrained dogs.

So the winning does matter, earlier to a this post I put up:

"So you are saying it is more important to win a competition than your dog's discomfort. If Cranz can do it, why can't you?"

You replied:

It has nothing to do with winning. This particular dog isn't that good anymore. It has to do with his joy in running and making us BOTH more comfortable while we are waiting for his turn.
He may be too old to win now but it seems that winning was very important when he could.

Uncontrolled dogs do win competitions, even dogs who win obedience I have seen totally out of control when off lead, the owner's excuse, they are not working.

Just because is can do things like sit, down, stay, etc, means he is under control in those situations, slamming the end of the lead is a dog out of control. You have allowed him to get to this stage, you haven't bothered to train him to do anything else and are blaming your lack of training on the dog and them put a prong collar on to control him.

It would be interesting to see xrays of his neck to see what damage has been done to it by the slamming at the end of the lead which you have allowed him to do.

Nobody doubts your love of your dogs, but your method of control leaves a lot to be desired.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

Well, it was a nice discussion while it lasted. But it has now gone beyond discussion and begun to get ugly. I'm sorry to see it.
thistledown
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:31 am

Post by thistledown »

DoggoneGA, I have been in the same position as you on a forum, i.e. out of sync with the philosophy of the forum on certain issues.

I know what it is like. The more you explain what you do, the worse it gets. When several people question you, if you are a naturally polite person, you try to answer each point raised and before you know it your whole leisure time is taken up answering posts - which in turn generate replies ......

I left the forum in the end because it made me bone weary trying to defend myself on one or two topics even though I could agree with the majority on many other issues.

Do you think, if we got off the topic of prong collars and CM we could find common ground?
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"Do you think, if we got off the topic of prong collars and CM we could find common ground?"

I've already stated a LOT of common ground. I'm just out of sorts at the moment with those who either haven't bothered to read that, or who refuse to accept it.

I've already stated - several times now, that when I teach dogs new behaviors or actions I use NO CORRECTIONS. That when I DO use corrections (though as I stated above I am coming to prefer the word "interupters") I time them to the action not wanted and I keep them to the minimum level needed - as does Victoria. I've stated that even though I disapprove of some techniques and tools touted here, I have kept an open mind about them because while *I* might not like them others have found them useful and effective.

How much more "commond ground" do we need? When accusations of mistreatement, abuse, etc. start flying around that is pretty much the END of any meaningful discussions because emotion has entered the picture and most people don't think clearly when they are overly emotional. I've tried to keep MY emotions in check, but it DID finally get to me. So I make no apologies for my emotional outburst...but I'm not sure I can go back to being calm and return to discussing things. Right now I'm feeling it's all gone too far for that.
Missymay
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Hamburg, PA
Contact:

Post by Missymay »

An interupter would not involve discomfort of any kind, physical or emotional. Interuptors teach nothing, they just interupt a behavior. And interupter would be a noise or touch distraction. I don't use touch, but I am not working with sweet little puppies.

I find that most of the time, that whole "eh" thing Victoria does is a positive punisher. It is not designed to interupt a behavior for redirection, but rather to decrease the chances that a behavior will be repeated.

Unltimately, it is the dog, not the handler, who determine where the consequence lies and one dogs punisher can be another dogs reinforcer.

I agree with Emma 100%. It is important to be precise in one's words because to do therwise leads to confusion. I often find traditional trainers do this to muddy the waters. If one is confused as to the distinction between words like correction and punishment, one can claim to be using similar methods without actually doing so.

I find the same to be true with words like Alpha, dominant and leader.

As to training, there is a world of difference between a positive reinforcement based trainer and a trainer who uses positive reinforcement.

Lastly, Doggone, if you really want to discuss prongs, Cesar and the like in happy lockstep, without disagreement, Cesar has his own forums where his league of adoring fans can sing his accolades to their hearts content.

One of the things I like about this forum is that it is positive reinforcement based and I can bop in here without fear of seeing someone advocate pinches, chokes, shocks, punishment or dominance.
Kim and Asher

“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
DoggoneGA

Post by DoggoneGA »

"One of the things I like about this forum is that it is positive reinforcement based and I can bop in here without fear of seeing someone advocate pinches, chokes, shocks, punishment or dominance"

And yet, *I* have advocated NONE of those.
Locked