"This is entirely different from the pack at rest, when there may be grumbles and the odd trying to test status. In that time, the human needs to guide and maintains stability. In the working arena, there is no need for human intervention: the pack works as a cohesive unit."
but this is the part of being a "pack" that the VAST majority of dog owners have to deal with. how their pack of dogs and humans behaves when NOT working.
I have rules and requirements for MY pack at home. Quite a few of them in fact...but a LOT of them go out the window when we are at a race meet or at lure coursing.
when I walk my dogs they are not permitted to pull me around, for instance. They must remain calm and biddable. At a running event they can pull, then can scream, they can jump around. Because at running events it is THEY who do the work...all I can do is watch. so I want them to be excited, to WANT to do their "work"
But very few dog owners do much more than walk their dogs and interact with them around the house, so THAT must be the focus of dealing with training and with "problem" dogs. How a pack interacts when at work is more or less beside the point to THOSE owners.
They are adopting out a dog who bit!!! Irresponsible rescue!
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Yes, you do need to know your dog, but dogs are dogs first, and their breed second. Dogs have been bred for many things and you also need to understand why the dog was bred.DoggoneGA wrote:
"This board it to help anyone who needs help, not everyone has a Whippet, there are many different breeds we are dealing with. Many of these owners read these posts to try and find the help they need and don't post. When I put up a post it is for these people to help them understand their dogs."
Certainly...but again, it is still necessary to be aware of differences in how different breeds might react to the same situation.
I have 6 dogs, between them they are 8 different breeds, Greyhound, GSD, Labrador, Border Collie, Whippet, JRT, Staffy and Cairn Terrier. All bred for different jobs but all are dogs first. I do have to take what they were bred to do into account when training them, but the principles of training is the same for all of them. It is the same with their tails, they all carry them naturally in different positions, only my Greyhound has had any off, but they are all relaxed, happy tails that swing when they move. Even when their tail is high over their backs, there is a swing to it when they are relaxed and happy.
The handler should not be giving a dog a correction if they are wearing a prong collar, they should allow the dog to do the correction itself by standing still and letting the dog go into the collar. The idea is that the dog will only hurt himself as little as possible and will stop going into the collar. This still causes a dog pain or they wouldn't back away from the prongs. If we prick ourselves we back away in a similar way to a dog that goes into the prongs."Choke. prong and shock collars work on a priciple of pain, head halters do not. Yes their misuse (people giving choke collar and prong callar type corrections with a head halter) can cause harm. "
See, here's where we have a fundamental disagreement. I completely disagree that these tools work on a pain principle. yes, they can ALL be used in such a way as to cause pain...but the do not HAVE to be. A head collar is not designed to cause pain either, but I could quite easily use in so that it does. That would STILL be a fault of the user, not of the tool.
I often see trainers who use an e collar say the dogs are not shocked but they get a stim, in order for the stim to work, it has to cause discomfort or pain.
A head collar is designed to give the handler control over the head, there is no prongs for the dog to go into nor does it give the dog a shock/stim, they can do damage if not used properly but unlike the others, don't cause pain when used properly.
My dogs don't get the chance to run towards or into a road, the roads in the UK can be horendous so my dogs are kept well away and on short leads. I don't use extending leads or shortened leads when walking on the roads, they are the right size for the job so my dogs stay close to me."As far as if my dog runs towards or into the road way, no I would not "yank" him out of the way.
That depends on their inctincts and reactions, riding a high spirited, skitish horse on our roads you need very quick refects and need to act a lot quicker than you can speak. This doesn't mean a dog would be yanked back, far from it, the dog would be stopped and called back.umm hmmm. I wish it was possible to set you up so that your dog suddenly jumped right in front of a car. I'd bet money your instant reflex would be to yank the dog back, because people can move a LOT quicker than they can talk.
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Doggone, I do not dispute that most people don't deal with a working pack 
I was simply clarifying your earlier statement:
Tell that to the nearest canine pack leader. They don't positively persuade their pack to follow them, they require it and they will reinforce their leadership role with appropriate corrections, if necessary
and making it clear - I hope - to anybody interested, that canine pack leaders do not do what you said above, and that the 'pack leader' concept does not apply when dogs are being a pack in the purest and most natural sense of the word: when working for the benefit of the pack.
There is no pack leader when dogs are working
I was simply clarifying your earlier statement:Tell that to the nearest canine pack leader. They don't positively persuade their pack to follow them, they require it and they will reinforce their leadership role with appropriate corrections, if necessary
and making it clear - I hope - to anybody interested, that canine pack leaders do not do what you said above, and that the 'pack leader' concept does not apply when dogs are being a pack in the purest and most natural sense of the word: when working for the benefit of the pack.
There is no pack leader when dogs are working
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
I can't remember any dog being a pack leader when they are working, even when my own dogs were working together to flush rabbits out, catch and kill them.Nettle wrote: There is no pack leader when dogs are working
Even in a normal pack of dogs like I have, the leader isn't the leader in all things, depending on how high the leader puts things and how high another dog puts something, the leader can change.
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DoggoneGA
"The handler should not be giving a dog a correction if they are wearing a prong collar, they should allow the dog to do the correction itself by standing still and letting the dog go into the collar. The idea is that the dog will only hurt himself as little as possible and will stop going into the collar. This still causes a dog pain or they wouldn't back away from the prongs. If we prick ourselves we back away in a similar way to a dog that goes into the prongs."
yes, that's how it worked on my dogs. Even though I like them to get excited at running events, there is a limit! I've got one dog that absolutely SLAMS the lead and while it doesn't seem to phase HIM a bit, it hurts ME a lot! So I got a prong collar for him and he doesn't seem bothered by it at all, but he has never even tried to "hit" it like he does a regular buckle collar, or even a training collar.
It did exactly what I needed it to do, with NO effort on my part: not dampen his enthusiasm, but just tone down his physical reaction to the excitement. He stays excited and *I* don't hurt any more!
"I often see trainers who use an e collar say the dogs are not shocked but they get a stim, in order for the stim to work, it has to cause discomfort or pain"
No, actually it doesn't HAVE to. When properly used it's more like an electric horse fence. If such a fence is properly set and you touch it, it doesn't really HURT...but it does cause enough nerve sensation to elicit a startled jerk. I should know, I've touched enough of them in my lifetime! Plus, especially now, there are a lot of models that have different audio tones and it's quite possible to train most dogs using only the audible tones and never have to use the "shock" part of the collar.
"A head collar is designed to give the handler control over the head, there is no prongs for the dog to go into nor does it give the dog a shock/stim, they can do damage if not used properly but unlike the others, don't cause pain when used properly."
That's the theory, yes. But dogs do not have the muscular strength, nor the enormous tendons in their necks that horses have and an improperly used head halter is capable of damaging the neck...especially on small, light dogs. Plus, in my experience - read observation - too many dogs learn too quickly how to brace against the kind of pull that a head halter puts on their heads. I see it, especially, at running events...where the dogs are so excited, and they quickly learn how to brace their necks against that pulll...basically making the head halter as nearly useless as a regular collar.
And, actually, it's going to be interesting to see if MY dog that responded so well to the prong collar continues to do so...or if HE, too, learns to brace against it's action. If he does, I'll have to go back to his "bungee cord" leash to protect MYSELF!
yes, that's how it worked on my dogs. Even though I like them to get excited at running events, there is a limit! I've got one dog that absolutely SLAMS the lead and while it doesn't seem to phase HIM a bit, it hurts ME a lot! So I got a prong collar for him and he doesn't seem bothered by it at all, but he has never even tried to "hit" it like he does a regular buckle collar, or even a training collar.
It did exactly what I needed it to do, with NO effort on my part: not dampen his enthusiasm, but just tone down his physical reaction to the excitement. He stays excited and *I* don't hurt any more!
"I often see trainers who use an e collar say the dogs are not shocked but they get a stim, in order for the stim to work, it has to cause discomfort or pain"
No, actually it doesn't HAVE to. When properly used it's more like an electric horse fence. If such a fence is properly set and you touch it, it doesn't really HURT...but it does cause enough nerve sensation to elicit a startled jerk. I should know, I've touched enough of them in my lifetime! Plus, especially now, there are a lot of models that have different audio tones and it's quite possible to train most dogs using only the audible tones and never have to use the "shock" part of the collar.
"A head collar is designed to give the handler control over the head, there is no prongs for the dog to go into nor does it give the dog a shock/stim, they can do damage if not used properly but unlike the others, don't cause pain when used properly."
That's the theory, yes. But dogs do not have the muscular strength, nor the enormous tendons in their necks that horses have and an improperly used head halter is capable of damaging the neck...especially on small, light dogs. Plus, in my experience - read observation - too many dogs learn too quickly how to brace against the kind of pull that a head halter puts on their heads. I see it, especially, at running events...where the dogs are so excited, and they quickly learn how to brace their necks against that pulll...basically making the head halter as nearly useless as a regular collar.
And, actually, it's going to be interesting to see if MY dog that responded so well to the prong collar continues to do so...or if HE, too, learns to brace against it's action. If he does, I'll have to go back to his "bungee cord" leash to protect MYSELF!
If he doesn't go into the prong collar like he goes into a flat collar then it must hurt him, if he didn't, it wouldn't make any difference. If you were pushing into something quite hard, then someone put something there that hurt when you pushed, you wouldn't push as hard either.DoggoneGA wrote: yes, that's how it worked on my dogs. Even though I like them to get excited at running events, there is a limit! I've got one dog that absolutely SLAMS the lead and while it doesn't seem to phase HIM a bit, it hurts ME a lot! So I got a prong collar for him and he doesn't seem bothered by it at all, but he has never even tried to "hit" it like he does a regular buckle collar, or even a training collar.
It did exactly what I needed it to do, with NO effort on my part: not dampen his enthusiasm, but just tone down his physical reaction to the excitement. He stays excited and *I* don't hurt any more!
I said discomfort as well, an electric fence does cause quite a bit of discomfort which is why horses keep away from them. There are people who an electric fence does hurt, and in some cases can throw them a short distance.No, actually it doesn't HAVE to. When properly used it's more like an electric horse fence. If such a fence is properly set and you touch it, it doesn't really HURT...but it does cause enough nerve sensation to elicit a startled jerk. I should know, I've touched enough of them in my lifetime! Plus, especially now, there are a lot of models that have different audio tones and it's quite possible to train most dogs using only the audible tones and never have to use the "shock" part of the collar.
As you said in an earlier post, you can't blame the tool if the handler doesn't use it properly. Headcollars are designed not to hurt, prong and e collars are designed to cause discomfort or hurt. There is no comparison."A head collar is designed to give the handler control over the head, there is no prongs for the dog to go into nor does it give the dog a shock/stim, they can do damage if not used properly but unlike the others, don't cause pain when used properly."
That's the theory, yes. But dogs do not have the muscular strength, nor the enormous tendons in their necks that horses have and an improperly used head halter is capable of damaging the neck...especially on small, light dogs. Plus, in my experience - read observation - too many dogs learn too quickly how to brace against the kind of pull that a head halter puts on their heads. I see it, especially, at running events...where the dogs are so excited, and they quickly learn how to brace their necks against that pulll...basically making the head halter as nearly useless as a regular collar.
There is not substitute for good training, but often owners/handlers either don't want to or don't have the time to, do that training so they use prong or e collars.
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Chloe&Atlas'smom
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:22 pm
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DoggoneGA
"If he doesn't go into the prong collar like he goes into a flat collar then it must hurt him, if he didn't, it wouldn't make any difference. If you were pushing into something quite hard, then someone put something there that hurt when you pushed, you wouldn't push as hard either."
If hitting a buckle or training collar HARD enough to hurt ME doesn't bother him, why would a prong collar be worse? I will say I used the prong collar for the first time with a fair bit of trepidation because I did NOT want him hurt beyond his forebearance...what would be the point of making him associate pain with something that should be FUN? But he seemed not to even notice he was wearing it. I even tried giving him a light correction, just to see his reaction...there was none.
At this point I'm quite willing to admit his reaction to it...or to be precise his LACK of reaction was entirely due to it's having a different "feel" around his neck. That doesn't necessarily mean discomfort, but even so it must be a different feeling. Which is why I will be interested to see if his reaction changes as he gets used to it. Though that might take a while because we don't go to many events and I will only be using it when he is going to be running.
"I said discomfort as well, an electric fence does cause quite a bit of discomfort which is why horses keep away from them."
Yes, but horses have much more sensitive skin than do dogs. In fact, I've known several dogs over the years who had long hair and learned they could get under an electric fence without being "zapped" because their hair blunted the zing.
" There are people who an electric fence does hurt, and in some cases can throw them a short distance."
Certainly. There are always going to be differences in sensitivity and in reaction, but if a normal electric fence is throwing ANYONE even a short distance then it is no longer NORMAL. Though, there ARE much stronger electric fences that are designed to both keep livestock in AND to burn the tips of growing plants to prevent them from grounding out the fence. But I did not have THOSE in mind as I do not consider them to be "normal" electric fences.
"As you said in an earlier post, you can't blame the tool if the handler doesn't use it properly. Headcollars are designed not to hurt, prong and e collars are designed to cause discomfort or hurt. There is no comparison."
On this we disagree. I do not agree that prong or even ecollars are designed to cause hurt. Discomfort, maybe...if they are used that way. But it isn't possible to get through life without SOME discomfort, or even pain, and there are studies that indicate it's actually not even healthy to live a completely discomfort free life.
It's true that early ecollars in particular probably were more painful than they needed to be, but modern ones have a quite wide range of features and strengths and just as with any tool can be adjusted to fit the dog and the situation. Same with training collars and prong collars
"There is not substitute for good training, but often owners/handlers either don't want to or don't have the time to, do that training so they use prong or e collars."
But that is true of ANY training tool...even a clicker. It's perfectly possible to train a dog without any tools whatsoever...IF you ARE willing to put the time and study into learning how to do that. Any tool you use is a step away from that sort of "ideal" training...but if the tool takes you in the direction of a happy, well trained dog because you have learned to use it CORRECTLY, then I see nothing wrong with using any such tool
If hitting a buckle or training collar HARD enough to hurt ME doesn't bother him, why would a prong collar be worse? I will say I used the prong collar for the first time with a fair bit of trepidation because I did NOT want him hurt beyond his forebearance...what would be the point of making him associate pain with something that should be FUN? But he seemed not to even notice he was wearing it. I even tried giving him a light correction, just to see his reaction...there was none.
At this point I'm quite willing to admit his reaction to it...or to be precise his LACK of reaction was entirely due to it's having a different "feel" around his neck. That doesn't necessarily mean discomfort, but even so it must be a different feeling. Which is why I will be interested to see if his reaction changes as he gets used to it. Though that might take a while because we don't go to many events and I will only be using it when he is going to be running.
"I said discomfort as well, an electric fence does cause quite a bit of discomfort which is why horses keep away from them."
Yes, but horses have much more sensitive skin than do dogs. In fact, I've known several dogs over the years who had long hair and learned they could get under an electric fence without being "zapped" because their hair blunted the zing.
" There are people who an electric fence does hurt, and in some cases can throw them a short distance."
Certainly. There are always going to be differences in sensitivity and in reaction, but if a normal electric fence is throwing ANYONE even a short distance then it is no longer NORMAL. Though, there ARE much stronger electric fences that are designed to both keep livestock in AND to burn the tips of growing plants to prevent them from grounding out the fence. But I did not have THOSE in mind as I do not consider them to be "normal" electric fences.
"As you said in an earlier post, you can't blame the tool if the handler doesn't use it properly. Headcollars are designed not to hurt, prong and e collars are designed to cause discomfort or hurt. There is no comparison."
On this we disagree. I do not agree that prong or even ecollars are designed to cause hurt. Discomfort, maybe...if they are used that way. But it isn't possible to get through life without SOME discomfort, or even pain, and there are studies that indicate it's actually not even healthy to live a completely discomfort free life.
It's true that early ecollars in particular probably were more painful than they needed to be, but modern ones have a quite wide range of features and strengths and just as with any tool can be adjusted to fit the dog and the situation. Same with training collars and prong collars
"There is not substitute for good training, but often owners/handlers either don't want to or don't have the time to, do that training so they use prong or e collars."
But that is true of ANY training tool...even a clicker. It's perfectly possible to train a dog without any tools whatsoever...IF you ARE willing to put the time and study into learning how to do that. Any tool you use is a step away from that sort of "ideal" training...but if the tool takes you in the direction of a happy, well trained dog because you have learned to use it CORRECTLY, then I see nothing wrong with using any such tool
DoggoneGA wrote:"
I have rules and requirements for MY pack at home. Quite a few of them in fact...but a LOT of them go out the window when we are at a race meet or at lure coursing.
when I walk my dogs they are not permitted to pull me around, for instance. They must remain calm and biddable. At a running event they can pull, then can scream, they can jump around. Because at running events it is THEY who do the work...all I can do is watch. so I want them to be excited, to WANT to do their "work".
My dogs are not allow to carry on, pull, scream or jump around in ANY environment including coursing. They are to lay calmly unless they are about to run.
I get mine revved up immediately prior to a run. the take off like shot out of a cannon. Why have a competition dog waste all that energy off the field and then not perform the best they can during their run. In Khan's last competative event for all breeds, he beat 4 of the 6 whippets running against him. The 2 that beat him, were only frations of a second faster over a course about 750 yds. Khan's 3 runs were 28,27,27.5 and the winning time was 26.7 seconds.
Both those whippets like Khan's were extremely calm off the field. The others were practically uncontrolled and totally stressed.
Agility, I definitely cannot have them going ape off the field. I have seen people dismissed from a trial because their dogs were making too much noise.
Again if using a prong collar is the only way your dog "walks nicely" on leash, then you have not done a bit of training to walk nicely on leash.
Picture this:
A pack of foxhounds, thirty huge dogs bred and trained to hunt, waits calmly at the meet at the feet of the huntsman's horse. Then with a toot on the horn, they assemble beside his horse and trot several miles in close formation to the first draw. At the draw, they wait for command, and at a word, they pour into the undergrowth and start seeking for fox scent.
A single hound finds, bays, and the rest of the pack runs to it, picks up the scent and pours out of the undergrowth and across the landscape, all following that single scent.
That's control.
A pack of foxhounds, thirty huge dogs bred and trained to hunt, waits calmly at the meet at the feet of the huntsman's horse. Then with a toot on the horn, they assemble beside his horse and trot several miles in close formation to the first draw. At the draw, they wait for command, and at a word, they pour into the undergrowth and start seeking for fox scent.
A single hound finds, bays, and the rest of the pack runs to it, picks up the scent and pours out of the undergrowth and across the landscape, all following that single scent.
That's control.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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DoggoneGA
"My dogs are not allow to carry on, pull, scream or jump around in ANY environment including coursing. They are to lay calmly unless they are about to run. "
And my dogs, too, are required to be calm until they are on the way to the line or to the box. Then they are allowed to be excited.
"I get mine revved up immediately prior to a run. the take off like shot out of a cannon."
Same here.
"Why have a competition dog waste all that energy off the field and then not perform the best they can during their run"
I agree. Which is why, for instance, I park my van where they can't see or hear what's going on. So they will rest quietly and not be wasting their energy. I see it all the time at running events: dogs in the cars and trucks banging around, screaming, barking and NOT getting any quiet rest. You won't see that in MY van.
" In Khan's last competative event for all breeds, he beat 4 of the 6 whippets running against him. The 2 that beat him, were only frations of a second faster over a course about 750 yds. Khan's 3 runs were 28,27,27.5 and the winning time was 26.7 seconds. "
Congratulations.
"Both those whippets like Khan's were extremely calm off the field. The others were practically uncontrolled and totally stressed. "
As are mine calm when off the field.
"Agility, I definitely cannot have them going ape off the field. I have seen people dismissed from a trial because their dogs were making too much noise. "
I can't comment on this, we don't do agility.
"Again if using a prong collar is the only way your dog "walks nicely" on leash, then you have not done a bit of training to walk nicely on leash."
You have obviously NOT been reading all of my posts. I *never* said the ONLY WAY my dogs will "walk nicely" on a leash is when they are wearing a prong collar. To repeat: my dogs are not allowed to pull when on a lead, they must walk nicely on a loose leash. BUT, at running events they are allowed to get excited when they are about to run. However, I have one dog in particular who absolutely will SLAM the end of the lead and while it doesn't seem to bother him a bit it hurts ME when he does that. So I tried a prong collar to see what effect it would have. It had a dramatic effect. He simply stopped hitting the end of the lead. Never even tried. And all I did was put it on him.
So if that particular tool brings him under better control and saves ME pain to boot, then I will continue using it - for BOTH of our benefits. BUT, knowing this dog as I do, it wouldn't surprise me if he learns that he CAN hit this collar like he does a regular training collar. At which point, if he reaches it, the collar will be ineffective and I will go back to using my previous tool - which is a bungee cord leash.
And my dogs, too, are required to be calm until they are on the way to the line or to the box. Then they are allowed to be excited.
"I get mine revved up immediately prior to a run. the take off like shot out of a cannon."
Same here.
"Why have a competition dog waste all that energy off the field and then not perform the best they can during their run"
I agree. Which is why, for instance, I park my van where they can't see or hear what's going on. So they will rest quietly and not be wasting their energy. I see it all the time at running events: dogs in the cars and trucks banging around, screaming, barking and NOT getting any quiet rest. You won't see that in MY van.
" In Khan's last competative event for all breeds, he beat 4 of the 6 whippets running against him. The 2 that beat him, were only frations of a second faster over a course about 750 yds. Khan's 3 runs were 28,27,27.5 and the winning time was 26.7 seconds. "
Congratulations.
"Both those whippets like Khan's were extremely calm off the field. The others were practically uncontrolled and totally stressed. "
As are mine calm when off the field.
"Agility, I definitely cannot have them going ape off the field. I have seen people dismissed from a trial because their dogs were making too much noise. "
I can't comment on this, we don't do agility.
"Again if using a prong collar is the only way your dog "walks nicely" on leash, then you have not done a bit of training to walk nicely on leash."
You have obviously NOT been reading all of my posts. I *never* said the ONLY WAY my dogs will "walk nicely" on a leash is when they are wearing a prong collar. To repeat: my dogs are not allowed to pull when on a lead, they must walk nicely on a loose leash. BUT, at running events they are allowed to get excited when they are about to run. However, I have one dog in particular who absolutely will SLAM the end of the lead and while it doesn't seem to bother him a bit it hurts ME when he does that. So I tried a prong collar to see what effect it would have. It had a dramatic effect. He simply stopped hitting the end of the lead. Never even tried. And all I did was put it on him.
So if that particular tool brings him under better control and saves ME pain to boot, then I will continue using it - for BOTH of our benefits. BUT, knowing this dog as I do, it wouldn't surprise me if he learns that he CAN hit this collar like he does a regular training collar. At which point, if he reaches it, the collar will be ineffective and I will go back to using my previous tool - which is a bungee cord leash.
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thistledown
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:31 am
Ah Nettle ......Nettle wrote:Picture this:
A pack of foxhounds, thirty huge dogs bred and trained to hunt, waits calmly at the meet at the feet of the huntsman's horse. Then with a toot on the horn, they assemble beside his horse and trot several miles in close formation to the first draw. At the draw, they wait for command, and at a word, they pour into the undergrowth and start seeking for fox scent.
A single hound finds, bays, and the rest of the pack runs to it, picks up the scent and pours out of the undergrowth and across the landscape, all following that single scent.
That's control.
that post calls for a wee dram.
Shall I pour you one too?
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DoggoneGA
"At this point can't we just agree to disagree? "
I thought we did that already? Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't have an interesting and infomative discussion. There's always something to learn if everyone keeps their temper and discusses things...which seems to be happening here so far.
I thought we did that already? Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't have an interesting and infomative discussion. There's always something to learn if everyone keeps their temper and discusses things...which seems to be happening here so far.
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DoggoneGA
"That's control."
Ahhh, yes...but can they call the pack off once they are in full cry? I wouldn't even attempt it at a race meet or lure trial, not while the dogs are running. Heck, I'm just grateful that I can call most of my dogs off the lure after it stops...and those I can't won't leave it, even if they are WAY across the field, so I can go and get them and not have to worry about them running away.
I like a good recall as well as the next person, but when you have independent working animals there's a limit to what you can expect from them when they are in working mode. I wouldn't do to my Whippets what it would take to get them where I could call them off the lure when it is moving.
Ahhh, yes...but can they call the pack off once they are in full cry? I wouldn't even attempt it at a race meet or lure trial, not while the dogs are running. Heck, I'm just grateful that I can call most of my dogs off the lure after it stops...and those I can't won't leave it, even if they are WAY across the field, so I can go and get them and not have to worry about them running away.
I like a good recall as well as the next person, but when you have independent working animals there's a limit to what you can expect from them when they are in working mode. I wouldn't do to my Whippets what it would take to get them where I could call them off the lure when it is moving.
