Training Stand-and-Stay

[thistledown]

I'm having a problem with this

My dog associates Stay with Down, so when I ask her to Stand and then instruct her to Stay, she drops to the Down position.

Stay is firmly fixed in her mind as something she does in the Down position and when I go back to her and try to encourage her into a Stand she will stand until I say "stay" and then drop down again.

Any ideas greatly appreciated. The Down position is very uncomfortable for her, so Stand-and-Stay would be useful.

Also, is there a hand signal to use with Stand? The signal I use for Stay is the right hand held up flat facing forward (policeman stopping the traffic) so a different signal would be needed too I think.

Thanks.

[Nettle]

Change the word, so that stand-stay becomes a different word. Dogs are good at figuring this out. You can use any word that comes easily to you.

My dogs too prefer to stand stay. My signal close to is a finger between the shoulder blades at the top of the back. My signal at a distance is a finger pointed straight at them rather than the flat hand.

Start with the close position to associate the word with the action, then moving back, increasing the distance over a couple of weeks. By then she should halt (my word) to the signal.

[WendyM]

Change the word, so that stand-stay becomes a different word. Dogs are good at figuring this out. You can use any word that comes easily to you.

That was just what I was going to recommend.

I tell my dogs to stay and wait. The sign I use is ASL for pretty (hand is relaxed near the brow and goes down and across my face towards my chin tightening the hand to the "and" sign, from a distance you can exaggerate the sign.) To my dogs stay means "make yourself comfortable but don't move from this spot" and "wait/pretty" means "I need you to hold this position until I ask for your next move"

I use the word pretty a lot in verbal commands to replace traditional commands-- most people can't give commands like "heel" and "stack" in a happy warm voice, but almost anyone can say "walk pretty" or "stand pretty" and if the word pretty is loaded correctly the dog understands that performing the task requires a certain amount of precision and snappiness but also earns much better rewards than any command without the "pretty"

[thistledown]

Thank you very much Nettle and WendyM.

Yes, you are both right, I need a new command instead of trying to untangle Stay from being associated with Down.

Halt sounds very different from anything else I use so I'll try that.

I thought your 'pretty' idea was very interesting WendyM. I'm going to have a think about how I can use that idea to vary my tone of voice so that I don't slip into using the Voice of Doom all the time.

I do struggle with training Other aspects of dog ownership such as health, nutrition, and exercise seem to come naturally but with training I do find it difficult to think clearly which is a shame because the dog tries hard to get it right (usually, lol ...)

[ckranz]

I would train this similar to a sit maintain (pre sit stay).

pre load your hand with 10 tiny treats
Have your dog adopt a stand:
when your dog goes into the stand,
use a verbal marker (I like yep). and treat.
Give 1 yep and treat about every second.
After the last treat, use your release cue.

To put it order:
stand
yep, treat x10
release

Repeat this several more times.

Slowly start increasing the time between yeps.

Keep working this to build duration.

Next is working on distraction.
cue the stand,
give 1 very minor distraction (like lift 1 foot) Click/treat
Its import to click during the distraction. If your dog moves on the click, put your dog back into a stand before delivering the treat.

Its important to note. Many times with clicker training the click can signify the end of the behavior. This means that in all probability your dog will break the stay upon the click. Do not be alarmed. You can put your dog into any stay (pick your most reliable) c/t fast enough to not give your dog time to break the stay and they will learn.

The click is a bridge, it only marks what was done earns a reward. It does not mean the behavior is complete and releases the dog.

After you have been able to add in enough of a distraction to allow you to move, you can start adding distance. Start with short distances like a step or two and build to your desired distance.

Note in any of this I have not give a cue for the stay. I have made the stand imply a stand stay as a default for the stand command. down implies a down stay and sit implies a sit stay.

A freeze command is a little different. Let me know if you would like that)

Freeze is a command used to stop your dog in his tracks. For instance, you dog has slipped out and is across the street. Of course upon seeing you he anticipates your recall and starts coming towards you. You also see a vehicle coming up the street (A dog owner's worst nightmare). A freeze command would have your dog stop and wait until released (the car passes) and then released for a recall.

[WendyM]

I thought your 'pretty' idea was very interesting WendyM. I'm going to have a think about how I can use that idea to vary my tone of voice so that I don't slip into using the Voice of Doom all the time.

I do struggle with training Other aspects of dog ownership such as health, nutrition, and exercise seem to come naturally but with training I do find it difficult to think clearly which is a shame because the dog tries hard to get it right (usually, lol ...)

Dogs respond to more syllables and warmer pitches, hence trainers like Barbara Woodhouse were on the right track with words like "walkies" before behavioral scientists could prove there was any track at all (and long before I was a twinkle in the milk mans eye ) but they used it because it worked. Stanley Coren's book "How dogs think" gives it much more detail in how and why it works (and a little bit on how to exploit it for training.)

Don't get down on yourself about training, there's a very steep learning curve because all dogs are individuals. There are times my dogs make me feel stupid, and times where I couldn't be prouder. The trick is to focus on having fun so that the dogs have fun, and you can't do that if you're reprimanding yourself because you aren't the perfect trainer.

[thistledown]

Thank you very much ckranz. I've printed that post so that I can have a good look at it in detail. I'd also like to see how you train Freeze as well if that is not too much trouble.

My lovely dog is quite good on the Down Stay considering her breeding and my incompetence She is mostly trained outside though, and the Down is difficult to maintain with a deep rather bare sighthound chest in the mud and stubble. She shuffles about and doesn't like it at all, so rather than risking her breaking the Stay I'm looking around for a standing alternative.

I remember Barbara Woodhouse and her "walkies" very well WendyM. It would be interesting to see some of her old tv programmes in light of current thinking on training. I quite liked her at the time

Thanks again for the advice.

[ckranz]

Freeze:

with your dog on leash and the aid of an open doorway walk towards the door way with your dog in good leash walking position...your dog should not be ahead of you.

When you reach the door, turn and step in front of your dog (facing him) and give your cue (freeze, wait, halt ect...) Your body block should naturally tell your dog to stop. Click treat (C/T) Hold briefly and then cue your release

Repeat this several times.

Then, like working on stay, repeat this and after the command take 1 step back Click when back step forward and treat. Step back again and release.

Repeat this several times adding in duration and other distractions gradually.

These first steps are crucial in building a strong foundation.

Gradually increase the distance you move away after giving your hand/verbal cue. I like had cues as my dogs read them more readily than verbals.

Workign with a long line will give you more distance and now to strat transitioning to your dog on a recall and halting him mid recall. Again start with very small distance where after cueing recall you can use your body to block and tell your dog to stop.

Again slowly build distance, slowly add distractions, and duration of the actual wait. Remember to time your click with the desired behavior and that click does not end the behavior.

Some further comments about having stay being implied with sits downs and stands. It is vitally important that you give your release cue and do not allow your dog to decide he can break his stay when he gets bored.

Having it implied can also be a bridge for adding in specfic cues for sit stay, stand stay and down stay. I have found I have beeter luck teaching the behavior first and then adding the cue later once my dog understands the behavior.

[thistledown]

thanks very much for that ckranz. I've had a quick look at it and also printed it out to look at in more detail.

What is the hand signal you use for Freeze?

I really should have set out initially to follow a proper training schedule with co-ordinated commands and hand signals instead of a sort of mix-and-match approach with made-up voice and hand cues. We muddle along in our own way but we'll never win any prizes ..lol

[Nettle]

I use made-up and it works for me don't be hard on yourself: I bet you are doing just fine.

Hand signals and words have to be the ones that come easily to you not what suits someone else. Dogs don't mind what we say or do so long as we are consistent.

[ckranz]

I agree with Nettle, use cues that are comfortable for you. My wait and Freeze had cue are the same.....my arm is up raised palm facing the dog.

My release is merely dropping my arm.

What I like about this is I don't have to be facing my dog to give a wait or release which is useful in agility.

[thistledown]

Aww, thanks for that Nettle.

'Consistency', yes I can do that


lol ..... the dog came into the room just now and looked at the monitor. She says she'll give it a try if it doesn't involve lying in the mud

[Missymay]

cranz, I work in a similar manner, but I do duration then distance than distration. I too shape a stay and the following is my method (cut and pasted from somewhere else, sorry):

For stay, I do the following:

You are actually trying to add three things to get a reliable stay: Duration, distance and distractions. That is the order I would introduce, remembering that if you up on criteria, you must temperarily lower the other two.

Start working for duration. I use a clicker for all my training, so I will write it the way I do it. When you treat, try to do it on the ground, between th paws to encourage the dog to hold the position.

Use averages. Start with 5 repeats for a 3 second average. That would be 3 seconds, click, treat,2 seconds, click treat, 4 seconds, click treat, 1 second, clcik treat, 5 seconds click treat. When you have 80-90% cmpliance, up the average to 7 seconds, ect.

Then I add distance:

Start by lifting your right foot. Always use your right foot for stays and your left foot when you want the dog to come along. It's all about the body language.

Lift your right foot, tap your toe in front of you, click, treat. Repeat to 80-90% compliance.

Lift your right foot, turn it (not your body) 90 degrees, tap, return, click treat. Repeat to 80-90% compliance.

Lift your right foot, turn your foot and your body 90 degrees, return click treat, repeat as above.

Turning your body about 90 degrees to the right, lift your right foot and turn it 180 degrees, tap, return. click treat, repeat as above.

Starting with your right foot, turn your entire body 180 degrees, so you are facing away from the dog, return, click treat, repeat as above.

Now start actually adding distance, first one step, then two, working each time to 80-90% compliance before moving on to adding another step.

As to distractions, remember that dogs do not generalize, so what you teach in the kitchen is learned in the kitchen but not in the living room. You need to proof by slowly adding distractions and changing locations, always rememberin that if you up one criteria, you must lower the others. So if a dog stays for 30 seconds in the kitchen, ask for 15 in the living room.

[thistledown]

Many thanks for that Missymay

remember that dogs do not generalize, so what you teach in the kitchen is learned in the kitchen but not in the living room.

I hadn't really thought about that until recently. I wonder if the learning is transferred from one situation to another according to the intensity of the experience and/or the breed?

[Missymay]

Actually, I should have wrote "Dogs do not generalize well."

Of course, if the did not generalize at all, they could not transfer any learning to new situations.

As for intensity of the situation, I do believe that things learned through the amygdala tend to transfer more readily than things learned through the other parts of the brain and ultimately, that makes sense.