New rescue dog bit husband's face

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pupperpants
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New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by pupperpants »

We got a rescue dog a few weeks ago, he is a mystery mix, about 30# with a long body and short legs. We picked him because he was the only dog in the kennel not barking wildly, and when we went in to meet the dogs, he was a complete snuggle bug. Our primary requirement in a dog was happy and friendly! The lack of barking was a plus. They said he is a year or two old, and was recently neutered. No history on him except that he was a stray from another state.

The first few weeks were going great (honeymoon period!). He sleeps in the crate at night with no difficulty whatsoever (after we convince him to get in with treats). He eats 3/4 c dry grain free kibble twice a day (he's a little on the chubby side) and we use a fair amount of treats during the day for training. He's learned sit, to stay out of the kitchen, come, his name, and is making great progress on leash manners. In the house he mostly wants to snuggle with a little bit of playing. On walks, he seems to enjoy the walks but is fearful/reactive towards other dogs. He always wants to meet people (but doesn't know how to politely yet), but goes on high alert when he sees another dog (whining, straining at the leash). We've tried to keep our walks away from most dogs and that has helped and lately he has been able to sit and calm down with treats and guidance when another dog is passing (sometimes).

The first week, I was lying on the couch and pup was next to me, my husband came up and hugged him to try to snuggle him not realizing that is really aggressive in dog language. He growled at my husband, and my husband got mad because "dogs aren't supposed to growl at people". I told him growling is the dog's way of communicating his discomfort and you don't want to train out a growl because then you go straight to a bite. My husband didn't buy it. A week later he tried a similar thing, same response from the dog, same response from me, same response from my husband. Later that night, he leaned over the dog next to me on the couch when the dog was half asleep and the dog jumped up and bit him on the face.

It left two small puncture wounds on his nose, no bruising. My husband put the dog in the crate immediately afterwards, but made up with him shortly after. I was pretty upset and I feel out of my league in dealing with a biting dog. It seems like it was a very specific set of circumstances that led to the biting. Probably a combination of fear (husband's unintentionally aggressive posturing) and resource guarding (me on the couch). We've had a few growls in similar situations since then, but my husband has tried to avoid doing that. My husband takes care of the dog 3 days a week while I am mostly at work and home for just a half hour at night. He says they do great, no issues at all when I am gone.

Help! Where do I start? Can I trust this dog around others?

Since the bite, he's been more fearful than in the beginning - more lip licking, yawning, whale eyes, etc, but still just wants to snuggle and roll on his back for tummy rubs.
Lotsaquestions
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by Lotsaquestions »

Because he's a rescue you won't know what he's been through in his previous home.

It could have been that men came barrelling into the room and got angry at him for being on the sofa, then proceeded to just pull him off it. It could be that he was resource guarding you. I could be that in the past men have leaned over him to tell him off so he now anticipates that. Because it could be a whole load of different things I personally would recommend a behaviourist to find out exactly what is going on, especially since it involves a bite.

On the plus side, he growled! That means he does let you know when he's unhappy, and you now need to tell your husband to respect that. Only when you respect the dog's space can you work to make them more comfortable with handling. The sooner your husband respects that the quicker you can progress.

I've never had experience with a dog resource guarding people, sofas, or even being uncomfortable with being leaned over so I don't feel like I can give you any advice beyond what I've posted. There are others here who are better placed to help, and I hope they'll be along shortly! For now tell your husband to give the dog space and let the dog initiate contact. If the dog is on the sofa when your husband wants to sit down, coax the dog off the sofa with a tasty treat and say 'off'.
JudyN
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by JudyN »

If someone you'd known for a few weeks came up to you on the sofa, leaned over and gave you a cuddle unexpectedly, you'd probably grump at them. If they did it a couple more times despite you telling them to get out of your space, then the next time you'd probably bite their face too!

It may well be as simple as that. Not all dogs enjoy cuddling, those that do enjoy it don't always feel like it, and when they're settled down comfortably dozing, they may like it even less. I honestly think your dog has done nothing wrong - he told your husband how he felt several times, and your husband didn't listen.

There's a video on 'consent to pet' here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTSCvLcq1nA

If you can persuade your husband to listen to your dog and respect how he feels, then this could be all you need to do. Be aware of his body language if/when you stand over him so you can see if he's uncomfortable before he feels he has to tell you. If he seems at all possessive about the sofa, then teach 'off' and/or bribe him. If he does growl or even bite, don't punish him - really, you want to apologise to him for not responding to what his body was telling you. Then he can relax and trust you, and will have no need to feel anxious.

I haven't mentioned resource guarding you as I haven't had experience of it, but even if there is an element of that, if you can spot any signs and pre-empt any conflict (e.g. if you have treats in your pockets you could throw one onto the floor to get your dog off the sofa when hubby comes in) that alone could deal with the issue. Good luck with pesuading your husband that this is the way to go!

ETA: I should just add, as the dog was half-asleep the time he actually bit, this could have been an instinctive reaction - many dogs suffer from sleep aggression where if disturbed, they go to attack first and think later. Usually, their brain kicks in before they cause any harm, but if you are very close and if they are a bit anxious because of what's happened previously, it might not.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
pupperpants
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by pupperpants »

Okay, so new scenario. I was lying on the couch. Dog was lying on the floor several feet away. My husband came and sat next to me on the couch and the dig jumped up on the couch growling. Definitely seems defensive of me. I ignored the dog and left the room and my husband loved on him. It seems like it is taking less for him to growl.... Help!
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Nettle
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by Nettle »

It's not taking less - as he learns you will listen to the growl, so he feels more confident in explaining to you that he isn't happy about something. So you get MORE growling, and you should be delighted because it's a compliment!

They only have so many sounds they can make. Before a dog uses sound, it uses a whole load of body-language, but we humans are useless as interpreting it :wink: until it is explained by other humans.

Have a look at Lilly Chin for a masterclass in dog body language.


Make sure he has a mega comfortable bed by the sofa, so when you coax him off the sofa (or anywhere) it's for something as good, not something worse.

You did the right thing by leaving, but I wonder if your husband's "loving on him" is making him anxious. What exactly is your husband doing? Even with non-rescue dogs that have no issues, it is far better to let the dog come to us and ask for affection rather than just touching when we feel like it. There is a chasm of difference between giving it and taking it.
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JudyN
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by JudyN »

Nettle wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:37 amMake sure he has a mega comfortable bed by the sofa, so when you coax him off the sofa (or anywhere) it's for something as good, not something worse.
You might want to have the bed not too near the sofa, so there's less chance of him seeing you or your OH as encroaching on his 'personal space' when you move.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
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Nettle
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by Nettle »

Good point - thanks JudyN. :)
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Suzette
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by Suzette »

Just for reference, we had a rescue sheltie that was one of the sweetest dogs ever. But... he never, in all the years we had him, liked being hugged around the neck or have his face encroached upon. He would snuggle up to us, we could pet him all over, he was a loving, happy-go-lucky dog in every other way. But if you tried to hug him, he would give you a warning growl (the only time this dog ever growled).

It was actually great for teaching my daughter (who was 8 years old when we got him) that we must respect that dogs have the right to say no to us sometimes if something we are doing is making them uncomfortable. And he said no to hugs around the neck and getting your face right up into his. It was a lesson she has carried with her into adulthood and she is very respectful of listening to dogs when they 'talk' to her.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
pupperpants
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by pupperpants »

So today we worked on my husband taking the lead more, giving more treats, etc. I have backed off on the amount of treats I get. He's no longer allowed on the sofa. Things seem a little better this afternoon than this morning, but I'm still feeling apprehensive about the whole situation.

Also feeling frustrated because not giving him treats means I don't get to work on training him. :(
jacksdad
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by jacksdad »

pupperpants wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:18 am He growled at my husband, and my husband got mad because "dogs aren't supposed to growl at people". I told him growling is the dog's way of communicating his discomfort and you don't want to train out a growl because then you go straight to a bite. My husband didn't buy it.
ok...sooooo as one guy to another....DUDE!, get over your self... this isn't about our ego, its about another living being that is afraid and has no choice but to "deal with it" because we have decided that this other living being (the dog) is going to live with us. I put it that way to try and make a point. No matter how noble your intentions. No matter how caring and loving etc, etc, etc. your dog has to learn that you are the best thing ever to have happened to him and that he is safe and that he just landed on all four paws...BUT he needs to do this at his pace (training can and does help, will give an example below) and he will only learn that if we demonstrate we are safe and the best things ever to be around.

I work with mostly with fearful and aggressive dogs and when a dog growls at me I listen. I back off, I figure out what is going on. This isn't about ego. letting your ego write checks your body can't cash is how you get bit. Had two recent cases that many trainers would label "red zone", but to me they were just afraid and when they growled and made threatening moves on me...I listened, took the information and made adjustments to what I was doing and I remain hole free. one even fired a warning shot...took a "bit" at my leg but choose not to connect when I first walked through the door. I love the growl...lack of growl worries me far more than being growled at.
pupperpants wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:37 pm So today we worked on my husband taking the lead more, giving more treats, etc. I have backed off on the amount of treats I get. He's no longer allowed on the sofa. Things seem a little better this afternoon than this morning, but I'm still feeling apprehensive about the whole situation.

Also feeling frustrated because not giving him treats means I don't get to work on training him. :(
First, your husband taking the lead more....don't expect a significant change in behavior from your dog because of this. more interaction between your husband and your dog might improve their bond...which might lower the tension. maybe. But it could also increase the tension, increase the risk of unwanted behavior from growling to biting. I am not there, so I can't even hint which way it might go, but you suddenly having your husband "take over" isn't a plan I would have suggested if I was working with you. Why? it does not actually address the growl or the guarding of the couch and/or you.

Depending what I saw/learned during the assessment I might have asked your husband to completely ignore the dog for a little while. Or maybe had him become more involved, such as he might serve a few more meals, or take him out on a walk a bit more etc. it just all depends on what I saw/learned from seeing the dog and your husband together. In either case I would NOT have asked you to take such a drastic step back. you should still be involved. training, feeding meals, taking for walks etc. But if I had decided more involvement was the way to go, this would just one small part of the over all plan. The meat of the plan would directly address the unwanted behavior.

believe it or not, banning the dog from the couch might not be the right thing either. But again, it just all depends on what I learned in the assessment.

But this is a very likely example of how I might proceed if you were my client....

First step would be to list all the situations that trigger a growl. then we would prioritize them. Then we would develop a counter conditioning plan to change your dogs association to what was triggering the growl.

Take the sofa. you and your dog sitting on the sofa, snuggles, petting, life is good. husband innocently walks into the room, dog growls or maybe doesn't growl until your husband approaches the sofa while you and the dog are on it triggering a growl.

There IS a distance from the couch your husband can be that triggers a "hark, husband approaches", but NO growl response from your dog. it is this moment that you give a bit of food. husband turns and walks away NO FOOD. husband again approaches to the "hark, husband approaches" point, food happens. then he turns and walks away and when he is leaving/moving away... NO FOOD.

What you are doing is using a learning principle called Classical Conditioning which deals with associations and one thing predicting another. it has the nice side affect to altering an emotional response as well. Something the learning principles behind sit, down, stay isn't very good at. The husband approaches makes good things happen (SUPPER YUMMY FOOD) changes your dogs association towards your husband approaching.

I used this with a client's Border Collie/GSD mix who was guarding "his" toy (that he stole out of my car...darn thief) and with in 5 minutes I had achieved a new response from him. initial response as I approached, a whole body freeze and a nice hard sideways look at me. a clear message of don't even think about approaching. I "ignored" him (not truly though, I was well aware of what he was saying and could do and was careful not to trigger the next level of a growl) and started approaching only to the point I got a little bit of a full body freeze, toss a bit of hot dog to him, turned and walked away. turned around and walked back to him, got the freeze again...tossed the hot dog, turned and walked away. repeated until I didn't get the freeze, but instead he dropped the toy, raised his head, very relaxed, no full body freeze, not hard stair, loose mouth, bright eyes...I then took a step closer, tossed the treat, turned walked away. I keep this up until I could walk up to him, toss a treat away that he had to get up for, then I could pickup the toy. now...I had some very good history with this dog, he wasn't afraid of me, and he had learned that I am safe, fair, and worth working with. which is why it went so quick. so it isn't the time this took that I want you to take away from this, but the change in response...when he lifted his head happy that was a conditioned emotional response. I had conditioned him to associate me walking towards him while he had this VALUABLE toy and he went from serious don't even think about coming close to "YIPPY, he is coming close" response.

When I said I ignored earlier I simply mean I didn't react to the hard stare by "correcting" him, yelling at him, try to soft talk to him etc. I just didn't react as best I could, but in my mind said to my self...self you need to counter condition your approach or you risk getting bit. I changed the situation from one of confrontation to one of learning that me approaching wasn't such a bad thing after all.

it is this kind of approach to your dog's biting and growling that truly solves the issue. It solves it because you change your dogs emotional response to what is triggering the growl. side note, do not confuse emotions with feelings or what your dog is thinking. while there is overlap, basic emotions such as fear, joy, anger etc have corresponding physical attributes we can observe. some require drawing blood to "see", some require heart rate monitors, and others learning what the body "language" associated with fear, aggression, joy etc look like. basic emotional responses to things happening around us or to us have a role in our survival. they aren't abstract like thoughts. All evidence indicates this is shared among mammals. so when we talk about changing an emotional response, it isn't a touchy feely thing, it is real. it possible to change how your dog responses to your husband approaching and sitting on the couch with you and your dog.

Step 1. listen to the growl. meaning...back off, stop what your doing, make note of what you did just before the growl. sometimes we can just make a note to never do again, something we need to implement a training plan to address.
step 2. develop a training plan
step 3. implement management.

So what is management? setting things up so that you don't have to be in training mode all the time. But yet you don't trigger the unwanted behavior. An example would be the suggestion of a VERY comfortable dog bed near the sofa (see Judy and Nettles response above) that is his spot to be when not training so that you and your husband can enjoy sometime together on the sofa and not worry about a dog becoming aggressive.

I would be happy to expand on the above if you want so you would know how to proceed, this isn't enough to actually act, but should give you an idea of how you could proceed and address the growling, guarding and fear.
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Nettle
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Re: New rescue dog bit husband's face

Post by Nettle »

Also check on your husband's expression/posture when he is dealing with the dog. It's so easy accidentally to appear fearsome when he wants to be kind.

Does he grin (bared teeth)
Does he make strong eye contact (very scary to dogs)
Does he vocalise? (dogs aren't keen on loudness until they know us well, and often not then)
Does he rub and pat rather than stroke? Does he touch scary areas such as the head? (much kinder to stroke on sides and chest).

And one more thing - many dogs show their tummies because they want tummy rubs. Equally many show their tummies as a plea to be left alone. The key is in the rest of the body-language at the time.
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