Taking Bax to work

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Shalista
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

I guess there's no way to know until i try but... im thinking of taking bax into work. I already know of two or three res that are very dog friendly. i figured some Saturday id just take him in, hed pop his head in, get some treats, and waddle out. Id do some hit and runs and gradually increase the number of residents he sees in a day. i figure if im seeing them in the room and its not going well, hes not warming up, hes feeling insecure, i can just leave.

this is a better plan i think then my previous one of just bringing him into the gym to wander around off lead and see the 15 or so people crammed in to the room. i think thats way to high stress an environment for all but the most patient of dogs.

but with visiting one person at a time? who can give him undivided attention and treats....?

The strategy here is two fold. 1) ive wanted to bring bax in as a therapy dog basically since i GOT HIM but, selfishness aside, 2) this is great socialization. this is people greeting on baxs terms where i can whisk him away if hes uncomfortable but i literally have an entire building of lonely bored people who love dogs just waiting to meet bax. to be honest first time i bring him in we might not even people greet. we might just sit somewhere, scarf down a TON of treats and then leave.

What do you guys think? am i setting myself up for failure?

the only requirement to take a dog into here is just a copy of his immunizations.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Nettle »

You're kidding, right?

Setting him up for failure - you bet you are.

Strange place strange people plenty of opportunity to pee inappropriately, panic, bark, snap, all those behaviours you have worked SO HARD to change.

People might 'love' dogs, but they can still scare the bejasus out of them really easily. They might grab or stare or make noise or pat his head. Bax is what he is - a scaredy, sensitive, highly reactive stressy little chap who hides his lack of confidence behind noise and 'attack'. He came to teach you so much, and he has - but clearly he still hasn't taught you that what HE needs is peace and quiet and security. What you propose is NOT what socialising is about.

You will of course do as you please, but as you asked our opinion - mine is Hell No.

Still think you are a great owner, though, because you HAVE come here to ask. :wink:
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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Shalista
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

So i never socialize him? i never let him greet new people? :shock:
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Nettle »

"Socialising" doesn't mean being put in the position of having to greet people. Socialising is about learning to accept that he is safe with you no matter what the circumstances. Really it's completely the wrong word, but we have to go with that.

So - out on a walk - someone wants to greet him, you let him decide if he wants to and if he does, he is allowed to, and the instant it looks as if he is about to become overwhelmed or the person is going to be loud, touch him wrongly or do anything else that he might not like, you are responsible for ending the interaction.

That is a world different from him being thrust into a new environment with a strange person. Especially a strange person each time. You know he is unreliable with pottying, you know he is easily overwhelmed, you know he gets excitable, and you know what happens next. He has given you umpteen examples, especially with your last return to your family home.

Keep him feeling safe, do stuff with him that he likes. This isn't it, and Bax's needs must come first.
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Shalista
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

So in a perfect world how would i go about helping bax grow and learn to like new things? Obv treats are involved. obv new people are involved. obv new places are involved.

forgive me but i dont understand how taking him into the same rooms every saturday to say hello to the same wheelchair bound residents isn't perfect. the res cant chase him, they cant hound him, if he decides to terminate the session and walk off they cant follow him. hes totally in control.

Conversely i could walk him down a street and have people passing by on either side trying to touch him and coo over him and the person is standing and looming over him and if he decides enough is enough they can chase after him.

I cant socialize him in my house, i just moved and i dont have any friends that can come over.

I just want bax to grow and learn that the world isnt so scary.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Nettle »

You are not understanding what I am saying.

Socialising means avoiding putting your dog in situations where he has to make his own safety decisions - because he will probably make the wrong ones.

Your responsibility is to see that random people don't scare him. You have no control on what other people might do, and once they've done it, it's too late. So all his interactions with other people should be at his choice, his pace, and under your protection. It doesn't mean shoving him into a series of challenging circumstances. You have already said in another post that he is still anxious with strangers.

You think new place new people, wheelchairs, medical smells won't scare him?

We only know what you put on the Board, and up to now it's been all about a scared reactive little dog with unreliable house-training and a tendency to bark when he is scared.

if you want to do something really super for Bax that will take the same time and have none of the risks, take him for an extra walk. And don't let people loom over him etc.

What you propose will teach him that the world is more scary, not less.

Don't be in such a rush. He has had to get used to an awful lot of new stuff in a short time, his housetraining has dived because he is so anxious, and he needs to chill. If he does meet new people, it must be one at a time in controlled circumstances in a place where he feels secure, and you are committed to the hilt to keeping him safe.
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Shalista
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

Sorry still not getting it. It sounds like you just want me to wrap Bax in cotton wool and never allow him to grow beyond his fears. He’s never going to learn that people aren’t scary until he meets new people. He can’t pick that up just watching the telly.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Nettle »

It's you who aren't getting it. I'm opting out of this discussion now, as I can't find a way to explain to you any more than I have done that what you suggest is highly likely to make him more scared not less. And I have never told you to wrap Bax in cotton wool.

Perhaps someone else can put it across in a different way so that you understand.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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Shalista
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

I’m sorry if I frustrated or upset you. I’m just trying to understand what’s best for bax. Hopefully someone with oodles of patience comes along because I still don’t get it.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
JudyN
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by JudyN »

Shalista wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:08 amI guess there's no way to know until i try but... im thinking of taking bax into work. I already know of two or three res that are very dog friendly. i figured some Saturday id just take him in, hed pop his head in, get some treats, and waddle out.
If you go at his pace - in fact if you go slower than his pace, to be on the safe side, and you are prepared to abort the whole plan at any point, I don't see a problem in at least taking the first step. It wouldn't really be different to if you took him to a friend's house and just stayed a few minutes, or took him into a shop and the shopkeeper said a quick hello.

If there's a dog-friendly person there, prime them that Bax isn't good with strangers and instruct them on what to do - maybe they just say 'Hi Bax', put their hand down to see if he wants to sniff it, and leave it at that. If Bax can relax in the room with no one else there, or with one other person not interacting with them, that's a good foundation. If Bax wants to say hello to the other person, all well and good.

Can you progress beyond this? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he would be happy in a crate so he can be near you but feel secure and not have to interact with anyone else. Maybe with more than one other person it would simply be too noisy and overwhelming. He would have to be confident that he will NOT be approached by strangers who make him nervous. Don't put him into a situation and then see if he can get used to it - if he looks like he needs to get used to it you know you've gone too fast and you need to get him out of the situation.

So... not that I like to contradict Nettle, but I think that by taking imperceptibly small baby steps, you could find out if this is workable. Don't even think of 'One day he'll be scampering round interacting with all the residents and playing with all the dogs', because he's not that dog. Think of it as a highly controlled socialisation opportunity (in the sense of adapting to a new place, not necessarily socialising with people) that may eventually give you another option for where he can be during the day, or may not.
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jacksdad
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by jacksdad »

Shalista wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:08 amI guess there's no way to know until i try but... im thinking of taking bax into work.
well yes and no. If you actually put together a plan, and prepared for this goal, you would have some idea how Bax would do.

Even if you haven't put a plan together and you are using phrases like "no way to know until I try", "we can try and see how it goes".... if you are truly honest with your self you KNOW what will happen and you KNOW it won't be good.

so what to do? you train for your goal. BUT you move at Bax's pace.

Nettles (at least I didn't catch her saying it) isn't saying don't do this, don't try for this goal. But from what I skimmed from her replies and knowing her posts in general what she is trying to prevent is tossing Bax into a stormy ocean without a life vest, not knowing how to swim etc. right now he will "drown" if you go with just the plan of "hope for the best". "today", taking Bax to the office is not a wise move. you would be putting him in over his head and he will react correctly for a dog in over their head...which will clash with human expectations for a "good" dog.

you have to break down what going into work with you means. what will he encounter? will he find it scary? is his potty training solid? can he handle you disappearing for a few minutes at a time or even longer? you your self will have to use the bathroom at some point. where will Bax be? what about lunch, meetings. what noises, activities will Bax have to deal with. what about getting to work? what will he encounter during that time? is his emotional endurance such that he can last a whole day at work with you? just like we build physical endurance, we have to build emotional endurance.

There is probably more. But that should give you an idea of things to think of. Then you need to train Bax to handle each of the situations of concern. you want to achieve that "Yippy" or at least calm response to anything that might trigger fear behavior. And like Judy says, this HAS TO BE DONE in SMALL steps at Bax's pace.

As for socialization...forget about socialization. that period of his life is done, over, gone. socialization has a specific meaning and refers to a time when a dog is biologically receptive to new experiences while a pup. it lasts a few weeks, they are biologically less likely to be afraid of new things and if the new experience (noise, car driving by, noisy truck, different looking dog) doesn't try and eat them, they are more lily to file that experience away as safe, nothing to worry about. again it is a brief period in a puppies early life and once it is closed it is closed.

If once that window is closed though we are not without options, but what we do isn't socialization. it is learning by other means. we use learning principles such as classical conditioning, which is about associations and predictability. we can use Operand conditioning to teach behavioral skills...sit and wait here. go into crate and lay down etc.

so IF you want to pursue this goal, you can't just "grab" Bax and go into the office and see what will happen. you MUST KNOW (to the best of your ability) what will happen and you can only learn that through implementing a training plan that helps Bax be safe and successful at his pace so that he learns that going into the office is fun and safe.

You also MUST be prepared for Bax NEVER being able to achieve this goal. forcing him to "deal" with the office before he is ready will seriously and negatively impact your training achievements to date.

So I absolutely agree that putting Bax into this situation is wrong at this time. But you can make it your goal. nothing wrong with that. And the starting place is to be able to walk down the street and pass people, dogs, noisy bus, fire truck racing by, kids running and yelling etc, etc all the things you can encounter on a walk...Bax MUST be ok with them...ok with them to the level of you are willing to bet $1000 that on a walk, with people stopping to stay hi, firetruck races by lights and sirens, barking dogs, etc, etc he will be calm and relaxed. if he can't do that, he can't handle an office.
Shalista
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Re: Taking Bax to work

Post by Shalista »

*nodnod* @JudyN that was EXACTLY how i was viewing it. that was 100% my intention. VERY SLOW one on one with bax holding the reins.

also i think to be fair to Nettle, i dont really post bax's SUCCESS' often. you always hear about the fear and the barking and the pottying but truthfully before this winter? i would take bax on walks down the crowded pier and HED be pulling me to greet random strangers and get cuddles and neck scratchies. bax is totally way more outgoing then i am. id always start with the "careful hes a little shy...." and then he dives in, puts his paws up and smears his neck as deep into the persons hand as he can.

now hes had a set back with the move so im not expecting that at ALL but i do think it is 100% possible for him to enjoy some neck scratchies in a secluded environment with the possibility of liverwurst or chicken in the air.

EDIT: also i appreciate everyones feedback but i think it would be a better use of everyone's time if the initial post was read a bit more carefully. i am in no way shape or form advocating for taking bax in on a normal workday and just leaving him there while i work. i am taking him to the place I work AT but not on a work DAY when i need to do bathroom breaks or anything like that.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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