Rough Collie Training Advice?

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ZaraD
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Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by ZaraD » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am

Hi All

ok so iv been volunteering at my local rescue for about 6 months now and am learning so much and am gaining experience while helping dogs who need our help :D

so tow weeks ago a woman came into the rescue as her dog had become pregnant by her other dog both dogs were Rough collies and she said she dose not know what to do with a litter but wants to keep mom after the birth. she in early pregnancy after our vet checked her over and none of there fosters are available to take her so i offered to take her until she had the litter so iv been looking after her these past tow weeks as her owner dose not want her back until the puppies have gone to there new home :roll: . anyway shes had the male rough collie neutered and the rescue wont be giving her the female (Maisie) back until shes been spayed. Maisie is so very beautiful she so obedient and has learned so fast as tow weeks ago she knew zero obedience and has learned to sit, stay, come, leave it ect...

she is so gentle and kind and calm in temperament and i have just fallen in love with her but to make matters more complicated my mom has to and she has been so gentle with mom when shes around mom she walks a lot slower and mom has also been taking her out for walks as well and she plods rather than walks with mom and then when i walk her she walks at my pace. in short shes an amazing dog and mom has said she would really like a rough collie now as our first dog. now iv already read on here about rough collies and have done my own research and have learned lots from Maisie and the reason iv put this in the training section is if we did choose a rough collie me and mom would most likely want one of Maisie pups and the recuse said if i do decide yes that i will get first pick, then what i want to ask is more training related not breed related .

so what i wanted to ask is..

1) barking i know rough collies are vocal dogs and am fine with this as is mom and iv helped train a few dogs to not bark when asked so i more or less know what to do with training to be quiet when asked but i have read rough collies dont stop even with training, so can you train a rough collie to be quiet when asked?

2) and lastly the sensitive nature they have Maisie has been fine so far and the Senior dog trainer thinks she must have been socialized well. what i want to ask here is do you think de-sensitizing a breed to noises, cars, carrier bags ect is to much for first time dog owner?

i really feel like me and mom have found a breed we both agree on and like but im just worried about training and then worried about the sensitive nature in case we make a mistake when socializing and we end up with a dog who becomes fearful.

like my friend me and mom are planning on getting help from day one from someone like Emmabeth or Emmabeth herself.

i was also talking with the man next door to us who said that i should not worry as im prepared and committed to the training and am getting help from day one and that there are far harder dogs to have as a first dog he said he would prefer to train and live with a rough collie as his first dog than a German shepherd.

also being a dog groomer im fine with the shedding and grooming commitment as i have love, love, loved grooming Maisie :D

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by Lotsaquestions » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:21 am

Rough Collies are amazing dogs, and I've seen them often recommended for first time owners so I'm sure you'll be fine!

As for socialising a sensitive dog, you probably need to just be more aware of what could trigger them than a bomb proof dog, and be prepared to make experiences as positive as possible. My current dog is sensitive, and he would spook at carrier bags, cars, bikes, etc: basically anything moving would set him off which I think is similar to issues collie owners have, since they're bred to react to movement and noise. What I did was just click and treat whenever something I knew he wasn't proofed with came along that was moving, and if he was getting a bit more wound up (staring intently) just break him by saying 'oh that's a silly carrier bag!' then give treat. He still gets worried by novel moving things, but he now looks to me before deciding to bark at it which is what I wanted to happen! Then if I tell him its fine, he then remembers that for the next time.

If you take the pup out 4 times a day for really short socialisation walks during their critical period, then you've set yourself up for success with a sensitive dog. But you need to make sure you don't overwhelm them, so if they spook at bikes, don't take them to see tour de france :lol: Just let them soak in life at a steady pace and have lots of boiled chicken on hand if you notice them fidgetting a bit too much at what they've seen (its how I knew puppy Merlin was a bit worried, now he just barks like a big boy :roll:).

ZaraD
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by ZaraD » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:32 am

Lotsaquestions wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:21 am
Rough Collies are amazing dogs, and I've seen them often recommended for first time owners so I'm sure you'll be fine!

As for socialising a sensitive dog, you probably need to just be more aware of what could trigger them than a bomb proof dog, and be prepared to make experiences as positive as possible. My current dog is sensitive, and he would spook at carrier bags, cars, bikes, etc: basically anything moving would set him off which I think is similar to issues collie owners have, since they're bred to react to movement and noise. What I did was just click and treat whenever something I knew he wasn't proofed with came along that was moving, and if he was getting a bit more wound up (staring intently) just break him by saying 'oh that's a silly carrier bag!' then give treat. He still gets worried by novel moving things, but he now looks to me before deciding to bark at it which is what I wanted to happen! Then if I tell him its fine, he then remembers that for the next time.

If you take the pup out 4 times a day for really short socialisation walks during their critical period, then you've set yourself up for success with a sensitive dog. But you need to make sure you don't overwhelm them, so if they spook at bikes, don't take them to see tour de france :lol: Just let them soak in life at a steady pace and have lots of boiled chicken on hand if you notice them fidgetting a bit too much at what they've seen (its how I knew puppy Merlin was a bit worried, now he just barks like a big boy :roll:).
thanks for your advice, i think having someone like Emmabeth will help though and i think i need to start learning about how to tell if a puppy is nervous as all the books iv read have been about adult dogs. so do you think that if i socialize really well when hes a pup that will help prevent him/her being scared or fearful? like more socializing then i would have done with the Golden?

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JudyN
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by JudyN » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:20 am

The two rough collies I've known well haven't been prone to barking. Mind you, that was several decades back! In my experience bearded collies are much barkier.

No reason why you shouldn't be able to socialise a collie pup successfully. I don't think you necessarily need to do more socialising, you just need to be more careful. Maybe more 'watching at a distance' than actually immersing them in new experiences. Have a read of On Talking Terms With Dogs by Turid Rugaas for a crash course in dog body language, and watch other dogs' body language. As a groomer, you must be experienced in sensing when a dog is getting tense and uncomfortable with what you're doing.

Gwen Bailey's Puppy Primer is a good resource for socialising, though I don't think I agreed 100% with all the training. Patricia McConnell's The Puppy Primer is my favourite puppy training book, though I didn't get it till Jasper was past the socialising stage so I can't remember what it covered there.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

jacksdad
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by jacksdad » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:59 pm

ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am
the rescue wont be giving her the female (Maisie) back until shes been spayed.


does the rescue have a written agreement for this? do they have the legal authority to take this step on their own?

I don't know where you are, but you want to be careful about something like this. In the US government run shelters often can do this, but private rescues could get into trouble doing this.

Hopefully your rescue is on solid legal ground to do this.
ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am

1) barking i know rough collies are vocal dogs and am fine with this as is mom and iv helped train a few dogs to not bark when asked so i more or less know what to do with training to be quiet when asked but i have read rough collies don't stop even with training, so can you train a rough collie to be quiet when asked?
barking can be tricky. clearly we don't want to encourage "bossy barking" where the dogs nag and nag to get food, to play, to get attention etc. but teaching a dog never to bark has it's own problems. There are times a dog being vocal can be a good thing and we should respond. needing to go out to bathroom comes to mind.

I would just be extra careful and put some focus in on teaching how to get your attention. one way we encourage in class is "sit for everything". dog wants to play, rather than barking at you or pawing at you, they come up and sit and look at you. if you are available to play, by all means grant your dog's wish.

Teach your dog a "all done" cue. once given play time is over, attention time is over, don't bother asking. rather here is a chew toy, kong, etc go relax on your bed and chill out.

in short, proactively teach what you want from your dog. teach them how to ask, teach them how to know play time is done etc.
ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am
2) and lastly the sensitive nature they have Maisie has been fine so far and the Senior dog trainer thinks she must have been socialized well. what i want to ask here is do you think de-sensitizing a breed to noises, cars, carrier bags ect is to much for first time dog owner?
no, it's not. But do you understand what that means?

desensitization means exposure at a level that does not trigger an extreme response. you want the most minimal "hark, there is a noise over there" type response. not a HOLY CRAP WHAT WAS THAT, WHO DETONATED A NUCLEAR BOMB OVER THERE response.

Desensitization works best when pared with classical conditioning. Classical Conditioning is about associations and predictions. I can explain more if you need.

first time pup has a startle "Hark, there was a noise, what does it mean" response, suddenly a bit of chicken appears in front of their nose for them to eat. New noise makes (predicts) chicken happen, noise is associated with chicken, noise is ok. you can do this with anything that causes the startle response.

one puppy I was doing some one and one training vs a class, we had him out at a park where they were playing soccer (foot ball to the EU), the referee blew his whistle, puppy startled. for the next few minutes each whistle blow was followed by chicken. within minutes, puppy didn't care about the whistle.

you can do this concept with anything the puppy startles too. cars moving by, bikes riding by, people running, dogs playing etc.

Socialization is often a misunderstood concept. it isn't necessarily about interactions. it is actually more about what is normal in "my" world, what isn't going to eat me. so just being able to look at something or experience something in a safe way is often all that is required. if a puppy is a little shy about something, that is OK. do NOT force the puppy to get closer or interact with something before they are ready. you can have the opposite affect than you are going for. we occasionally have puppies in class that start out just sitting under their person's chair for a couple of classes. the entire class just under the chair. the vast majority come out on their own within a couple of classes.

another example from a one on one training session, young puppy's first trip to the pet store, startled from a broom leaning against the wall. Since there wasn't really a good way to make broom predict chicken like with the whistle, I rewarded steps towards the broom. didn't care if the puppy didn't actually ever go up to the broom, only that any movement towards broom got reinforced. movement away, nothing, movement towards, chicken happens. in this case the pup did go up to the broom after a few minutes, sniffed and moved on.

ZaraD
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by ZaraD » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:37 am

jacksdad wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:59 pm
ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am
the rescue wont be giving her the female (Maisie) back until shes been spayed.


does the rescue have a written agreement for this? do they have the legal authority to take this step on their own?

I don't know where you are, but you want to be careful about something like this. In the US government run shelters often can do this, but private rescues could get into trouble doing this.

Hopefully your rescue is on solid legal ground to do this.
ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am

1) barking i know rough collies are vocal dogs and am fine with this as is mom and iv helped train a few dogs to not bark when asked so i more or less know what to do with training to be quiet when asked but i have read rough collies don't stop even with training, so can you train a rough collie to be quiet when asked?
barking can be tricky. clearly we don't want to encourage "bossy barking" where the dogs nag and nag to get food, to play, to get attention etc. but teaching a dog never to bark has it's own problems. There are times a dog being vocal can be a good thing and we should respond. needing to go out to bathroom comes to mind.

I would just be extra careful and put some focus in on teaching how to get your attention. one way we encourage in class is "sit for everything". dog wants to play, rather than barking at you or pawing at you, they come up and sit and look at you. if you are available to play, by all means grant your dog's wish.

Teach your dog a "all done" cue. once given play time is over, attention time is over, don't bother asking. rather here is a chew toy, kong, etc go relax on your bed and chill out.

in short, proactively teach what you want from your dog. teach them how to ask, teach them how to know play time is done etc.
ZaraD wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 am
2) and lastly the sensitive nature they have Maisie has been fine so far and the Senior dog trainer thinks she must have been socialized well. what i want to ask here is do you think de-sensitizing a breed to noises, cars, carrier bags ect is to much for first time dog owner?
no, it's not. But do you understand what that means?

desensitization means exposure at a level that does not trigger an extreme response. you want the most minimal "hark, there is a noise over there" type response. not a HOLY CRAP WHAT WAS THAT, WHO DETONATED A NUCLEAR BOMB OVER THERE response.

Desensitization works best when pared with classical conditioning. Classical Conditioning is about associations and predictions. I can explain more if you need.

first time pup has a startle "Hark, there was a noise, what does it mean" response, suddenly a bit of chicken appears in front of their nose for them to eat. New noise makes (predicts) chicken happen, noise is associated with chicken, noise is ok. you can do this with anything that causes the startle response.

one puppy I was doing some one and one training vs a class, we had him out at a park where they were playing soccer (foot ball to the EU), the referee blew his whistle, puppy startled. for the next few minutes each whistle blow was followed by chicken. within minutes, puppy didn't care about the whistle.

you can do this concept with anything the puppy startles too. cars moving by, bikes riding by, people running, dogs playing etc.

Socialization is often a misunderstood concept. it isn't necessarily about interactions. it is actually more about what is normal in "my" world, what isn't going to eat me. so just being able to look at something or experience something in a safe way is often all that is required. if a puppy is a little shy about something, that is OK. do NOT force the puppy to get closer or interact with something before they are ready. you can have the opposite affect than you are going for. we occasionally have puppies in class that start out just sitting under their person's chair for a couple of classes. the entire class just under the chair. the vast majority come out on their own within a couple of classes.

another example from a one on one training session, young puppy's first trip to the pet store, startled from a broom leaning against the wall. Since there wasn't really a good way to make broom predict chicken like with the whistle, I rewarded steps towards the broom. didn't care if the puppy didn't actually ever go up to the broom, only that any movement towards broom got reinforced. movement away, nothing, movement towards, chicken happens. in this case the pup did go up to the broom after a few minutes, sniffed and moved on.
yes the rescue can legal do this as the owner did not want to take maisie back until all the pups were gone and the rescue told her the only way they can do that is if they take Maisie as well and then re home her back to the owner its very complicated to explain and one of the conditions is to prevent this from happening again to get her spayed.

thank you so much for your help and advice to all of you who took the time to reply. so in the end its just about socializing and be careful when i socialize? i will find the books you recommend JudyN and Jacksdad im starting to understand more from your post. what i want is to help my collie pup become a stable and confidant adult to the best i can do with help from on here and by someone like Emmabeth in person.

so none of you think a Rough Collie is to much for first time owner. (im speaking from a training point of view not a breed point of view as i think the Rough collie as a breed is a great match for me and my mom)

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:04 am

Rough Collies are smart and responsive, they're people pleasers and are very loyal to their family. I doubt you'll have any trouble training one, and I bet his/her tail will be wagging the entire time! Make it all positive and set them up for success and you'll have a fab dog we'll all be super jealous of :lol:

With a sensitive dog it is very important to be careful with socialisation, yes, but its not something to get too worried about. Just take things slow and introduce things at a happy distance little and often with lots of positive reinforcement (chicken!!), so no hour long trips into the middle of the busy city! You'll get to know your dog very quickly so you'll know when they might be starting to feel a bit overwhelmed. Don't be afraid to just walk away from someone or something even if you think its rude. I made that mistake and I ended up having my leg attacked by a very overwhelmed puppy!

If you're caring for the puppys yourself (very jealous!) you'll have a headstart. Sensitive dogs can also be sensitive to touch (mine is) so it'll be good to introduce being handled and brushed in a slow and positive way. You could also get some weird things that wobble about or move for the puppies to potter around and climb on when they're old enough to stumble about. Things with different textures and shapes and colours.

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Erica
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Re: Rough Collie Training Advice?

Post by Erica » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:38 pm

If uou can, I am very pleased with how puppies raised with Puppy Culture are turning out. As Jacksdad says, some puppies spend a class or two watching fearfully...not so for PC pups! Even the wee tiny breeds like Maltese are confident and curious from day one of class. If you will be raising the puppies this means you can implement PC with the litter. Again, it's a great program for puppy raising, and would be a great guide for an inexperienced puppy raiser.
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14

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