Hi ya'll. So I know that some trainers mainly use positive reinforcement but sometimes incorporate corrections in some limited situations of for some dogs, and say that those who refuse to ever do that are limiting iptions and closing their minds? Thoughts? Or do you have any links that discuss this?
Thanks!
Thoughts on corrections ever being used ?
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Re: Thoughts on corrections ever being used ?
What situation do you need a "correction" in? Oftentimes, it's when a trainer has pushed too fast: asked the dog to stay for seven minutes when the dog is only ready for five; tried to take a loose-leash walk through the farmer's market when they've only practiced in their quiet neighborhood; asked their dog to walk past roadkill with a "leave it" when they've only ever practiced "leave it" when the dog is lying down.
And sure, sometimes dogs have off days and aren't at the same level as before...but when you're having a bad day, when your brain just doesn't work the way you normally are used to it working, do you want to be admonished or supported through it? Would you rather your boss yell at you or say "take it easy today?"
There is also the discussion of what a correction is. Often, it's a euphemism for physical punishment. Leash jerks, ear pinches, shock collars, etc. For soft-nerved dogs, a sharp "no!" can be as scary and emotionally painful as being smacked. Some dogs could not care less about having their airway restricted by a choke collar -- the environment is more reinforcing!
I don't think any dog needs physical punishment for training.
Relying on and using corrections as a major part of training throws major red flags for me. It tells me the person does not know how to escalate criteria correctly, or set their dog up for success.
Sometimes I do tell Delta "that behavior won't be rewarded," mostly when we're free-shaping. It's not "bad dog," but rather "try something else instead." So if I want him to put his feet on a book, but he keeps trying to chew on it, I might say "nope" in a gentle and relaxed manner, and he'll try something new (which I will reward!). However, if I did that with Opal, she would wilt and stop playing the shaping game. For Delta, it's interpreted as information he can use to figure out what I *do* want him to do. For Opal, it's interpreted as a criticism which is deeply emotionally painful to her. It is not a strategy that is suited for all dogs.
And sure, sometimes dogs have off days and aren't at the same level as before...but when you're having a bad day, when your brain just doesn't work the way you normally are used to it working, do you want to be admonished or supported through it? Would you rather your boss yell at you or say "take it easy today?"
There is also the discussion of what a correction is. Often, it's a euphemism for physical punishment. Leash jerks, ear pinches, shock collars, etc. For soft-nerved dogs, a sharp "no!" can be as scary and emotionally painful as being smacked. Some dogs could not care less about having their airway restricted by a choke collar -- the environment is more reinforcing!
I don't think any dog needs physical punishment for training.
Relying on and using corrections as a major part of training throws major red flags for me. It tells me the person does not know how to escalate criteria correctly, or set their dog up for success.
Sometimes I do tell Delta "that behavior won't be rewarded," mostly when we're free-shaping. It's not "bad dog," but rather "try something else instead." So if I want him to put his feet on a book, but he keeps trying to chew on it, I might say "nope" in a gentle and relaxed manner, and he'll try something new (which I will reward!). However, if I did that with Opal, she would wilt and stop playing the shaping game. For Delta, it's interpreted as information he can use to figure out what I *do* want him to do. For Opal, it's interpreted as a criticism which is deeply emotionally painful to her. It is not a strategy that is suited for all dogs.
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
Re: Thoughts on corrections ever being used ?
If you are using positive reinforcement, you are on the whole asking the dog to think, engage his brain and figure out ways to do what you want, to earn those rewards and that means being confident and willing to try new behaviours in case they work.
If you are using positive punishment you are asking the dog to avoid being punished which means being unwilling to try out new behaviours.
The brain just cannot do both at once and in practice what happens is that the positive reinforcement is NOT what the dog is working for so they become unwilling to try new behaviours, and the positive reinforcer merely serves to mark that 'you won't get a punishment right now'.
That LOOKS like positive reinforcement is still working, but it isn't, which becomes obvious when you try to get the dog to figure out new behaviours or problem solves - they are very reluctant to do so.
Ditto Ericas thoughts - why are corrections given:
You went too fast, the dog was not ready.
You did not proof the behaviour to sufficient locations/distractions/duration.
The dog does not understand the question or the cue.
The dog has been set up to fail.
All those things are trainer errors, not dog errors.
If you are using positive punishment you are asking the dog to avoid being punished which means being unwilling to try out new behaviours.
The brain just cannot do both at once and in practice what happens is that the positive reinforcement is NOT what the dog is working for so they become unwilling to try new behaviours, and the positive reinforcer merely serves to mark that 'you won't get a punishment right now'.
That LOOKS like positive reinforcement is still working, but it isn't, which becomes obvious when you try to get the dog to figure out new behaviours or problem solves - they are very reluctant to do so.
Ditto Ericas thoughts - why are corrections given:
You went too fast, the dog was not ready.
You did not proof the behaviour to sufficient locations/distractions/duration.
The dog does not understand the question or the cue.
The dog has been set up to fail.
All those things are trainer errors, not dog errors.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Thoughts on corrections ever being used ?
Ditto everyone else. I have a very high energy, strong willed dog. I have found 100% of the time that when he's failing to succeed (like ignoring a cue or not grasping a new one) it is ALWAYS my fault. I'm moving to fast, the environment is to distracting, i'm not being clear enough in what i want, or im making to big jumps (i haven't broken it down far enough into simpler steps). I have never found Bax, even in his most pig headed state, to have not wanted to work with me, he just has no clue what i want and he's confused. what he needs is more communication, not a correction.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
Re: Thoughts on corrections ever being used ?
Thanks everyone! What you're staying is insightful. Thanks for clearing that up!
