I've had Huck for 11yrs, got married last month and we got Vader- about 2years old. I've used a lot of Victoria's tactics to train Vader, and he's adapted well.
Lately, when I walk them in the evening this is our routine:
Fill their individual bowls up with water
Walk at LEAST 30min
Come home, and I go upstairs to office.
But, it seems like now when I go upstairs- they are fighting. It only happens when I'm away from them, but bowls are overturned, light furniture is being knocked over- and well I am HEARING them fight. I don't know how to discipline dogs that I don't actually SEE misbehave.
Suggestions? Thanks.
Dogs Fighting When I'm Not Here
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
I expect that both are males based on their names. Are they both neutered?
Is the created ruckus something recent or have they been doing variants of this for sometime?
Do they have toys left out for entertainment?
Are they injuring each other?
These are important questions to answer. If your dogs are not nuetered they should be with few exceptions.
If this fighting is something very recent, have both dog check by your vet. There coud be something like arthritis and pain involved from the older dog making him a little short on temper. Other things to check would be a thyroid panel.
Just as food can be a point of possession so can toys. Dogs can get into spats over toys.
The clearest signs of fighting are with fight caused injuries....punctures and lacerations as a result of contact with teeth and claws. If they are jsut running around making a lot of noise, I suspect then that they are roughousing....the kind of play thats better outside than inside.
Dogs play fight, they nip each other, grab each others paws, tails, necks and even shake and drag each other around. Dogs also have considerable control over how much pressure they clamp down. I mean amazing control. This of that sme soft mouthed lab trained to gently pick up and grab bird carcasses and retrieve them without damaging the bird.
That same lab as a mouth that when fed a raw meaty bone will tear meat and flesh from the bone, tear tendons and crack and consume bones. Its actually quite amazing to watch a raw fed dog (prey model) or a dog with a RMB (Raw Meaty Bone) eat.
They jaws can also stop at every point between those extremes.
Dogs also use there mouthes to tell other dogs when they are crossing a line with barking, growling, snapping postures...."This object is mine" or "Leave me alone I don't want to play". Dogs need to communicate with each other at their level. Many people "correct" their dogs for telling another dog off. I think this is a mistake that can lead to far worse problems like creating the hair trigger dog.
He the one that's been correct so often for growling, hackle raising, snapping, barking that he no longer shows these behaviors at all to show the stress he is feeling. He's the dog that attacks out of the blue with little or no apparent provocation.
This does not mean that you should not take action. When your dog is growling, snapping, barking at another dog, he is stressed and uncomfortable with the situation. Let him give his message, and check the other dog. If the other dog is walking off...enough said message recieved loud and clear. However, just as their are rude people who don't know when to leave, there are also rude dogs.
Seeing another dog who is ignoring your dogs communication to back off, help your dog out by calling him to you, or stepping between him and the other dog. Get his attention with a ball or frisbee. These will destress the situation, without training away your dogs communication ability to let you know he is not comfortable.
Using a ball or frisbee is very, very effective. I have been using this now for several months with my shy dog Khan. It has taken him from being a dog that would spot a kid and charge in and bark and lunge to a dog who is indifferent as long as the kid does not approach him...he gets focus on the game.
Is the created ruckus something recent or have they been doing variants of this for sometime?
Do they have toys left out for entertainment?
Are they injuring each other?
These are important questions to answer. If your dogs are not nuetered they should be with few exceptions.
If this fighting is something very recent, have both dog check by your vet. There coud be something like arthritis and pain involved from the older dog making him a little short on temper. Other things to check would be a thyroid panel.
Just as food can be a point of possession so can toys. Dogs can get into spats over toys.
The clearest signs of fighting are with fight caused injuries....punctures and lacerations as a result of contact with teeth and claws. If they are jsut running around making a lot of noise, I suspect then that they are roughousing....the kind of play thats better outside than inside.
Dogs play fight, they nip each other, grab each others paws, tails, necks and even shake and drag each other around. Dogs also have considerable control over how much pressure they clamp down. I mean amazing control. This of that sme soft mouthed lab trained to gently pick up and grab bird carcasses and retrieve them without damaging the bird.
That same lab as a mouth that when fed a raw meaty bone will tear meat and flesh from the bone, tear tendons and crack and consume bones. Its actually quite amazing to watch a raw fed dog (prey model) or a dog with a RMB (Raw Meaty Bone) eat.
They jaws can also stop at every point between those extremes.
Dogs also use there mouthes to tell other dogs when they are crossing a line with barking, growling, snapping postures...."This object is mine" or "Leave me alone I don't want to play". Dogs need to communicate with each other at their level. Many people "correct" their dogs for telling another dog off. I think this is a mistake that can lead to far worse problems like creating the hair trigger dog.
He the one that's been correct so often for growling, hackle raising, snapping, barking that he no longer shows these behaviors at all to show the stress he is feeling. He's the dog that attacks out of the blue with little or no apparent provocation.
This does not mean that you should not take action. When your dog is growling, snapping, barking at another dog, he is stressed and uncomfortable with the situation. Let him give his message, and check the other dog. If the other dog is walking off...enough said message recieved loud and clear. However, just as their are rude people who don't know when to leave, there are also rude dogs.
Seeing another dog who is ignoring your dogs communication to back off, help your dog out by calling him to you, or stepping between him and the other dog. Get his attention with a ball or frisbee. These will destress the situation, without training away your dogs communication ability to let you know he is not comfortable.
Using a ball or frisbee is very, very effective. I have been using this now for several months with my shy dog Khan. It has taken him from being a dog that would spot a kid and charge in and bark and lunge to a dog who is indifferent as long as the kid does not approach him...he gets focus on the game.
Re: Dogs Fighting When I'm Not Here
You can't discipline dogs if you are not there, just as you can't train them to do something if you are not there.huckle97 wrote:I've had Huck for 11yrs, got married last month and we got Vader- about 2years old. I've used a lot of Victoria's tactics to train Vader, and he's adapted well.
Lately, when I walk them in the evening this is our routine:
Fill their individual bowls up with water
Walk at LEAST 30min
Come home, and I go upstairs to office.
But, it seems like now when I go upstairs- they are fighting. It only happens when I'm away from them, but bowls are overturned, light furniture is being knocked over- and well I am HEARING them fight. I don't know how to discipline dogs that I don't actually SEE misbehave.
Suggestions? Thanks.
If you have any doubts of 2 dogs getting on, seperate them so they can't fight. You can't control them if you are nto there so this is the only way to keep them safe.
It may be very rough play, but very rough play can escalete into fighting so again, seperate them so they can't.
We don't get on with everyone we meet but expect dogs to, they don't but we do have a duty to our dogs to keep them safe, if we don't seperate them when they are fighting, we are not keeping them safe. Many owners can ended up with a dead dog because they didn't seperate them.
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A 2 year old and an old dog will often fight because the 2yo is coming up to adult strength and the old dog is in failing strength, and may well have health issues beginning that you do not see yet but the young dog can smell.
You must separate them when you cannot supervise them; if not, there is a very real chance that eventually the young dog will kill the old dog. This is not viciousness or bad character: it is normal dog law that the old and weak are beaten by the young and strong. It is not inevitable but happens often.
Dog behaviourists do not agree about everything
I say with all respect to ckranz that IME neutering often causes more trouble than it prevents and that surgery is not going to halt the inevitable here.
You must separate them when you cannot supervise them; if not, there is a very real chance that eventually the young dog will kill the old dog. This is not viciousness or bad character: it is normal dog law that the old and weak are beaten by the young and strong. It is not inevitable but happens often.
Dog behaviourists do not agree about everything
I say with all respect to ckranz that IME neutering often causes more trouble than it prevents and that surgery is not going to halt the inevitable here.A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
It make more trouble for me when I got Ellie spayed. Ellie is an ex breeding Staffy ***** who came to me in April 2007 as a foster dog. Bonnie is a 3 year old Collie/Labrador that was spayed after her first season in February 2006.Nettle wrote: Dog behaviourists do not agree about everything
For 7 months there wasn't a problem, they got on really well, Ellie wasn't spayed before she came here because she had 2 large tumours taken off her and had already been under the anaesthetic too long so wasn't spayed then. I was asked if I minded her having a season before spaying and I said no. She duely came into season and became quite ill, she was spayed 3 months afterwards.
Once Ellie had recovered from the operation, Bonnie started to be funny with her, she then started to attack her but it never developed because I didn't let it. When I go out I crate Ellie so she is safe. The main trigger is when Bonnie gets excided if someone comes, so when I get visitors both dogs are crated to keep Ellie safe.
I don't know if I will ever be able to leave them together, not really worried if I can't, I won't take a chance on anything happened to Ellie so she will always be crated when I leave them.
For the little amount of effort it takes to crate Ellie, it is worth it for peace of mind.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
There is a big difference between the effect of altering males and females in terms of aggressiveness. Spaying females has little to no effect. Neutering males (and letting the testosterone level settle) does have an impact on the aggressiveness of male dogs. The OP has 2 male dogs and why I suggested to have them both altered.
Well... *dons tin hat, takes cover behind the bunker*
*gulp*
I think yer all missing a trick here!
Huckle: How much exercise do your dogs get per day, and what breed/breed mix are they?
If you are taking them for JUST a 30 minute walk then its likely that this just gets them fired up.... then you vanish and leave them alone...
I assume that you are out during the day as well so the evening is VERY exciting especially for the younger one.. walkies, then you go away again and you might reappear at any moment and anyway he knows you are home....
If either of them but especially Vader, are in any way bored then this might well be part of the problem.
Do an hours walk, morning and night. Do training on that walk, training that gets them using their brains as well as their bodies. When you get in, dont vanish straight up stairs, do some calming down stuff with them, sit and fuss them quietly for a bit to settle them down.
It might well be that there is an issue between Vader being young and strong and Huck being older and weaker.. it could be that this is the start of a real aggression issue between the two of them.. do bear that in mind and take precautions, definately...
But it could just be that you come home, wake them up from their daily dozing and get them allllllll riled up... and then vanish leaving them nothign to do.
ckranz - ive seen neutering have VERY bad effects on young males, increasing aggression due to a decrease in confidence. I own a fear aggressive dog who was a happy go lucky friendly little soul until the day he was neutered - ive spent the last 7 years sorting that issue out so youll have to excuse me when i get riled when someone tells me it will have no detrimental effect. It can, it has, it could to someone elses dog - investigate and try behavioural modification, changing of routine and training... after all you cant sew them back on if it turns out to be the wrong decision to neuter!
*gulp*
I think yer all missing a trick here!
Huckle: How much exercise do your dogs get per day, and what breed/breed mix are they?
If you are taking them for JUST a 30 minute walk then its likely that this just gets them fired up.... then you vanish and leave them alone...
I assume that you are out during the day as well so the evening is VERY exciting especially for the younger one.. walkies, then you go away again and you might reappear at any moment and anyway he knows you are home....
If either of them but especially Vader, are in any way bored then this might well be part of the problem.
Do an hours walk, morning and night. Do training on that walk, training that gets them using their brains as well as their bodies. When you get in, dont vanish straight up stairs, do some calming down stuff with them, sit and fuss them quietly for a bit to settle them down.
It might well be that there is an issue between Vader being young and strong and Huck being older and weaker.. it could be that this is the start of a real aggression issue between the two of them.. do bear that in mind and take precautions, definately...
But it could just be that you come home, wake them up from their daily dozing and get them allllllll riled up... and then vanish leaving them nothign to do.
ckranz - ive seen neutering have VERY bad effects on young males, increasing aggression due to a decrease in confidence. I own a fear aggressive dog who was a happy go lucky friendly little soul until the day he was neutered - ive spent the last 7 years sorting that issue out so youll have to excuse me when i get riled when someone tells me it will have no detrimental effect. It can, it has, it could to someone elses dog - investigate and try behavioural modification, changing of routine and training... after all you cant sew them back on if it turns out to be the wrong decision to neuter!
emmabeth wrote:Well... *dons tin hat, takes cover behind the bunker*
*gulp*
I think yer all missing a trick here!
That is why these boards are so good, what one person misses another picks up on
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NicolaLloyd
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:50 am
- Location: Leeds
I used to have a similar problem with my dogs - luckily it was only play fighting but it was due to boredom. I found that after a walk they would play fight very loudly in the hope that it would get me to come and give them attention. Depending on how your dogs are 'fighting' might mean they are simply doing the same thing - attention seeking.
Like emmabeth has suggested - I upped the amount, and more importantly for my two, the type of exercise i was giving them. I started to include a lot more training in the walks - playing hide and seek, short bursts of heel training mixed with off lead running, tricks, recall exercises - as much as I could fit in basically. By the time I get them home they are pleased to get a break from me and have a nice sleep. They no longer have the energy or need to start play fighting to get my attention.
Just my experience - I'm definately no expert!!
Like emmabeth has suggested - I upped the amount, and more importantly for my two, the type of exercise i was giving them. I started to include a lot more training in the walks - playing hide and seek, short bursts of heel training mixed with off lead running, tricks, recall exercises - as much as I could fit in basically. By the time I get them home they are pleased to get a break from me and have a nice sleep. They no longer have the energy or need to start play fighting to get my attention.
Just my experience - I'm definately no expert!!
Mattie wrote:emmabeth wrote:Well... *dons tin hat, takes cover behind the bunker*
*gulp*
I think yer all missing a trick here!
That is why these boards are so good, what one person misses another picks up on
Absolutely!
I find people have very different ideas of what constitutes 'a walk' and sometimes I don't pick up on that - mine are walked fast across country for a minimum of an hour twice a day, with plenty of free running, and they are happy to sleep until the next walk.
Huckle, does your husband walk his dog as well? A 2 year old needs way more than an 11+ year old.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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I very much appreciate everyone's input.
They are both neutered, Huck was neutered- well as soon as he could be, and Vader was neutered when we got him.
I have 2 jobs, but both are less than 15hrs a week, so I do spend my time with the dogs- everyday.
After our walk, I go the gym and burn serious calories, have some food, and then head to the dog park. It's about 2-3mi away, so we usually walk. We are there for at least 1hour, they both are running and playing fetching, playing with other dogs perfectly. The two RARELY play with each other, at the park OR in the house.
By now it's about 4-5pm, sometimes later. I make food for myself and the hubby, we relax, or rather I do. Mark, my husband, usually gets down on the floor and wrestles with Vader for 20-40min. Then, right before bedtime, is when I walk them again.
I know dogs sense things WAY before humans, and if something is wrong with Huck, then Vader would know first. But- Huck plays fetch more, runs faster, and seems to have much more agility than Vader. Maybe he's exerting himself to much, I don't know if thats possible, but he IS older.
When they are alone, or if I leave to run errands or whatever, I take up toys and food- so there is no aggression, but I do have an issue with leaving them without water.
Vader plays GREAT with other dogs, the playful nipping, jumping on each other or what have you. but Huck- that's NEVER been him. He is fine when dogs are playing around him, but he doesn't want any part of it. I have been trying to watch them and see if maybe Vader is trying to play and Huck isn't responding, but that's not the case at all. Vader randomly, or so I see it as randomly, growls at Huck- and he's more dominant and attacks. I've broken up a few fights, or even a few potential fights, and though neither of been seriously injured, Vader is the one left limping, at least once he was.
It seems to be minimized, because I'm trying to use sound diversion if I see EITHER go into defensive mode, and I try and hide upstairs for longer periods of time to see what happens.
I do GREATLY appreciate everyone's help!!!
Mark, Vader, Huck, and I thank you.
They are both neutered, Huck was neutered- well as soon as he could be, and Vader was neutered when we got him.
I have 2 jobs, but both are less than 15hrs a week, so I do spend my time with the dogs- everyday.
After our walk, I go the gym and burn serious calories, have some food, and then head to the dog park. It's about 2-3mi away, so we usually walk. We are there for at least 1hour, they both are running and playing fetching, playing with other dogs perfectly. The two RARELY play with each other, at the park OR in the house.
By now it's about 4-5pm, sometimes later. I make food for myself and the hubby, we relax, or rather I do. Mark, my husband, usually gets down on the floor and wrestles with Vader for 20-40min. Then, right before bedtime, is when I walk them again.
I know dogs sense things WAY before humans, and if something is wrong with Huck, then Vader would know first. But- Huck plays fetch more, runs faster, and seems to have much more agility than Vader. Maybe he's exerting himself to much, I don't know if thats possible, but he IS older.
When they are alone, or if I leave to run errands or whatever, I take up toys and food- so there is no aggression, but I do have an issue with leaving them without water.
Vader plays GREAT with other dogs, the playful nipping, jumping on each other or what have you. but Huck- that's NEVER been him. He is fine when dogs are playing around him, but he doesn't want any part of it. I have been trying to watch them and see if maybe Vader is trying to play and Huck isn't responding, but that's not the case at all. Vader randomly, or so I see it as randomly, growls at Huck- and he's more dominant and attacks. I've broken up a few fights, or even a few potential fights, and though neither of been seriously injured, Vader is the one left limping, at least once he was.
It seems to be minimized, because I'm trying to use sound diversion if I see EITHER go into defensive mode, and I try and hide upstairs for longer periods of time to see what happens.
I do GREATLY appreciate everyone's help!!!
Mark, Vader, Huck, and I thank you.
Ok now we are getting somewhere.
Pick up a copy of "on Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" availble both in book or dvd format.
You will get a good idea of how to read your dogs a bit better. Its the moment and seconds prior to an incident that are crucial to understanding who is sending who what message.
Using calming signals to identify if one dog is stressed or being bothered by the other can help you to re-direct the other dog to de-stress the situation and thereby avoid a confrontation.
Have Huck examined for early signs of arthritis, perhaps start him on a glucosimine condroitin suppliment to help his joints out.
If huck is trying to say relax and rest, call vader away from him and leave him in peace. Its not about sound aversion, its about respect. You can also train Huck to have a safe spot where he can go and vader cannot follow.
Your description sounds more like Huck is trying to tell Vader to "leave me be". and Vader is missing or not responding to Huck's looking away, trying to wander off etc...and comes at huck to play. When you see things at this stage, that is the time to intervene...again not with a correction, but re-direct vader to a more appropiate playmate (yourself).
Pick up a copy of "on Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" availble both in book or dvd format.
You will get a good idea of how to read your dogs a bit better. Its the moment and seconds prior to an incident that are crucial to understanding who is sending who what message.
Using calming signals to identify if one dog is stressed or being bothered by the other can help you to re-direct the other dog to de-stress the situation and thereby avoid a confrontation.
Have Huck examined for early signs of arthritis, perhaps start him on a glucosimine condroitin suppliment to help his joints out.
If huck is trying to say relax and rest, call vader away from him and leave him in peace. Its not about sound aversion, its about respect. You can also train Huck to have a safe spot where he can go and vader cannot follow.
Your description sounds more like Huck is trying to tell Vader to "leave me be". and Vader is missing or not responding to Huck's looking away, trying to wander off etc...and comes at huck to play. When you see things at this stage, that is the time to intervene...again not with a correction, but re-direct vader to a more appropiate playmate (yourself).
Men will do what men will do, and they are way harder to train than dogs 
but 30-40 minutes of wrestling is giving very mixed signals to the dog. He'd be better off to take the dog out and walk him, or maybe do some structured exercise in the yard (eg retrieving, obstacle traing).
Men love this horseplay stuff, but it can backfire bigtime with a dog that thinks humans are for bear wrestling.
but 30-40 minutes of wrestling is giving very mixed signals to the dog. He'd be better off to take the dog out and walk him, or maybe do some structured exercise in the yard (eg retrieving, obstacle traing).Men love this horseplay stuff, but it can backfire bigtime with a dog that thinks humans are for bear wrestling.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
